Jump to content

Andy Y

Hornby - New tooling - 57' Bow-ended suburban coaches

Recommended Posts

Not in the Birmingham area, where a fair number of these coaches were allocated from new. Diagrams including Birmingham-Stourbridge Junction-Wolverhampton-Birmingham or Birmingham-Stratford upon Avon-Leamington Spa-Birmingham were bread and butter work for non-corridor stock, and later for the dmus. Both take the train round three sides of a giant triangle.

Even bigger area as some also did Leamington, Stratford, Honeybourne, Worcester, Wolverhampton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see how handing the ventilators had any affect on the loading gauge (or anything else for that matter); any vehicle or locomotive has to comply with this in both directions.  There will have been a reason for it, though, even if nobody now remembers what it was and it was not a good enough reason to be repeated on subsequent designs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much have these in common with the corridor stock? If roof jigs were common to both designs, keeping the ventilators off centre might  make  sense. How often would workers have to walk the roof for maintenance? Off centre would make this safer. Still, neither is an explanation for making both hands, or even marshalling them  so neatly.

 

Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine (but don't really know) that the roof jigs were common for coaches of the same length and general design; e.g. all Collett 57'.  I doubt that anyone went on the roof much except at the ends on stock equipped with toilets and the hatches on catering vehicles, which can be probably be reached from the cantrail; the only reason I can think of to go up on a coach roof is to paint it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A daft question, what livery would these have carried before maroon? Plain crimson or crimson & cream?

 

Edit

 

It seems my brain is having an overload, for some reason I thought these were being released in maroon, but I'm assuming that they are actually in plain crimson? So putting a spin on things, did they last long enough to wear lined maroon?

Edited by 217 RIVER FLESK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that they will be issued in that indeterminate shade of red that Hornby use instead of crimson or maroon which fails to pass muster for either.  The real thing would have carried crimson - not carmine, please - from 1949 and unlined maroon from 1956.  Their life expectancy was such that few would have been given unlined maroon and it is unlikely that any lasted long enough to receive lined maroon, which came into use for non-corridor stock from mid 1959.

 

Chris 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a very rough overview, introduction-1934, chocolate and cream with crest and white roof, 1934-42, ditto with shirtbutton roundel, 1942-5, austerity brown with orange line at waist and grey roof (all liveries from this point have grey roofs), 1945-8, chocolate and cream with G W R intials, 1948-9, ditto but no initials and W prefixed sans serif BR numbers, 1949-56 plain crimson with W suffixes appearing from about 1951 onwards, 1956-9, plain maroon, 1959-withdrawal, lined maroon but it is very dubious that any actually carried this livery; very few if any would have been overhauled after 1959.

 

Coaches are usually in service for anything up to about 10 years between major overhauls and repaints, and some would have been longer especially during the 40s as a result of German foreign policy of that era and the following austerity period, so older liveries could be seen for some time after they had been superseded by newer ones; a shirbutton liveried coach in the early 50s is quite feasible and and a choc/cream from 1948 is equally feasible in the mid 50s, for example.  But by the mid 50s the huge majority would have been in crimson unlined BR livery, and mostly with W suffixes.  I would not have thought that many of them carried 1956 unlined maroon, as withdrawals were already under way by then as dmus cascaded the newer Hawksworth non-gangwayed coaches.  

 

Cue avalanche of photographic evidence proving me wrong, but I reckon the above holds as general practice for modelling purposes.

 

I will be buying mine in whatever colour Hornby interpret as BR crimson; this was another one of those colours that is fairly hard to pin down as the hue seemed to vary between vehicles within the same set sometimes.  I might renumber them but I won't be repainting; whatever mangling H do of the colour it won't be as bad as Airfix's odd purple 'maroon', and by the time I've weathered them to take the new off, the matter will probably be fairly academic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine (but don't really know) that the roof jigs were common for coaches of the same length and general design;

 

That's cleared that up then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I doubt that anyone went on the roof much except at the ends on stock equipped with toilets and the hatches on catering vehicles, which can be probably be reached from the cantrail; the only reason I can think of to go up on a coach roof is to paint it!

At Bristol they used to walk along the coach roof to get to the toilet filling hoses on the canopy roof in some parts of the station.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there were at least four different roof profiles for Collett stock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just checked the release dates for the GWR examples. At the moment, R4874,75, 76 and 77 have moved up to next month for their expected arrival and the R4874A, 75A, 76A and 77A examples are expected for March. This may change but thought I'd mention it :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At Bristol they used to walk along the coach roof to get to the toilet filling hoses on the canopy roof in some parts of the station.

 

Temple Meads seems to generate this sort of thing; back in the 70s their solution to the pigeon problem was to send some poor s*d up on to the walkway on top of the curved glass roof with a pair of dustbin lids which he banged together to scare the little b*ggers off.  Not sure how effective this was, but it definitely had comedy value...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...to send some poor s*d up on to the walkway on top of the curved glass roof with a pair of dustbin lids which he banged together to scare the little b*ggers off. Not sure how effective this was, but it definitely had comedy value...

Although it does sound comedic, there is a dark side to situations like this. I worked for Sealink on the Train Ferry at Dover’s Western Dock and wagon exams could be a daunting affair during the nesting season. My colleague, a big strapping chap, had climbed up the end ladder of a wagon to check the seals and as he reached the top, he disturbed a nesting Gull. These things are quite large and it flew up at him, all beak and bad attitude, and in trying to fend it off he fell backwards from the ladder, resulting in multiple breaks to his leg and a cracked vertebrae. It was six months before he could return to work, even on light duties...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gulls are nasty sods, especially during nesting.  I spent a weekend on Flat Holm, an island in the Bristol Channel and an amazing place, once, during nesting.  When we landed the island's warden's handed us all umbrellas 'you'll soon see what they're for'.  The gulls infest the island completely, terrorising the chickens that are kept for fresh eggs, and everything is carpeted in chicken bones; these are the result of gull bin raids on the city centre takeaway areas of Cardiff, Newport, Barry, Weston-Super-Mare and Bristol.  No wonder the resident chucks are a bit nervous, surrounded by the scattered remains of their cousins...

 

These gulls do not just have a bad attitude, they are mob handed, and use droppings as a weapon, hence the brollies.  Brollies are also a useful tool when half a dozen of them physically attack you, as they will if they feel like it.  My initial reaction, that I wasn't going to attack any poor birdie, didn't last very long, and I was soon enjoying the satisfaction of a good hit with the best of 'em.

 

Flying rats.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are on one side: http://www.gwr.org.uk/coach-ventilators.html

We had a discussion a while ago about 'which side' (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108209-gwr-1927-non-corridor-bow-end-stock/), and it seems normal 2-coach B-set vehicles were not 'handed', but some of these 4-coach set vehicle diagrams were.

OT I know but when did handing of ventilators stop. Were the D109 and E141 sets handed? I would imagine the stopping of handing ventilators would not necessarily have occurred when corridors were no longer handed as there are commercial motives for the corridors.

 

Is any of the above in English?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Oakhill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I trawled through Russell last night.

As has been commented elsewhere, it is surprising how many coaches that at first glance look the same style, are different lengths and often different widths and profiles as well.

In the case of slightly different diagram Lionheart 7mm 4 coach version, it even looks like the 3rd class bays were much more cramped in the composites than in the brake 3rds, which is the sort of life changing info I look out for as a seasoned (but impoverished) commuter!

I think in the example of the Lionhearts, the bodies and underframes lengths were identical and as you say the compartment sizes changed to fit the length. Bizarrely the bogies centres changed! I hope there were good engineering reasons for this.

 

Oakhill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gulls are nasty sods, especially during nesting.  I spent a weekend on Flat Holm, an island in the Bristol Channel and an amazing place, once, during nesting.  When we landed the island's warden's handed us all umbrellas 'you'll soon see what they're for'.  The gulls infest the island completely, terrorising the chickens that are kept for fresh eggs, and everything is carpeted in chicken bones; these are the result of gull bin raids on the city centre takeaway areas of Cardiff, Newport, Barry, Weston-Super-Mare and Bristol.  No wonder the resident chucks are a bit nervous, surrounded by the scattered remains of their cousins...

 

These gulls do not just have a bad attitude, they are mob handed, and use droppings as a weapon, hence the brollies.  Brollies are also a useful tool when half a dozen of them physically attack you, as they will if they feel like it.  My initial reaction, that I wasn't going to attack any poor birdie, didn't last very long, and I was soon enjoying the satisfaction of a good hit with the best of 'em.

 

Flying rats

 

 

Arctic Terns on Farne Islands nest along grass edge of path and dive bomb intruders. They have very sharp beaks that need a hard hat is essential to avoid getting hen pecked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was attacked by a magpie once which went for my shiny helmet (not a euphemism) when cycling. Having failed to reguarly check the sun for Messerschmitts, this came as something of a surprise, and I nearly fell off.

 

Back on topic I came across a diagram e135 brake composite yesterday, of a similar appearance to these new Hornbys, which isn’t actually listed anywhere in Russell. Made me wonder if there could also be all 3rds not listed?

Edited by Hal Nail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do not be surprised to find that a design of coach is not listed in Russell.  Off the top of my head I'm not sure that he covers C75.

 

E135 comprised four brake composites, formed into B sets and initially allocated to Looe.

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hugh Longworth's book on GWR and LNER passenger stock inherited by British Railways does give the basic layout and dimensions for C75 and E135.

 

I find the layout of his book much clearer and comprehensive in respect of the GWR passenger stock (At least that which made it into BR) than Russell.

 

It does however not have the photographs and more detailed drawings of Russell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hugh Longworth's book on GWR and LNER passenger stock inherited by British Railways does give the basic layout and dimensions for C75 and E135.

It would be nice if Hugh Longworth told us which ones were left- or right-handed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hugh Longworth's book on GWR and LNER passenger stock inherited by British Railways does give the basic layout and dimensions for C75 and E135.

 

I find the layout of his book much clearer and comprehensive in respect of the GWR passenger stock (At least that which made it into BR) than Russell.

 

It does however not have the photographs and more detailed drawings of Russell.

 

I am finding it a useful companion to the Rusell books, having the plan sometimes is useful where the interior layout not obvious from photos. (One silly thing I struggle with is the compartment side elevation things like the positioning of WC windows and guards doors, as you don't get that. Sometimes I resort to scaling off photos in Russell and adjusting for perspective if need be.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice if Hugh Longworth told us which ones were left- or right-handed.

Generally the more talented and creative ones will be left handed!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally the more talented and creative ones will be left handed!

Wasn’t it the roof vents were on the right hand side or left hand side of the 1st class?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn’t it the roof vents were on the right hand side or left hand side of the 1st class?

The most obvious example of handing was which side the corridor runs. I don’t know definitively if there is handing in these non corridor types but if the off centre roof vents line up, then the two brake ends would have to be mirrored.

 

The E140 brake composite from the classic 2 coach sets have an extra guards window on one side only. These are identical and not handed - the ventilators don’t line up and the extra windows appear on opposite sides in a pair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...