Hornby - New tooling - Mk3 slide-door coaches

[Cbpete]

Hi Guys,

I have had a paint problem with 3 of the Cross Country Livery ones and I also have 2 of them which have a wobble. one of them didn't have enough paint on the roof at one end but I did keep that one as from certain angles it did not show as much.  I have done a bit of detailing on the interiors painting the tables, backs of the seats and end walls it as made a bit of a difference.  I remade the interior of the first class coach as it had the second class interior in, a link to my youtube video 

I also painted the orange plastic looking electric connectors and picked out some of the under body details.  I also noticed that Hornby had missed out on painting the controls for the water on the second class coaches but had done it on the first and catering coaches. I also have added some steel disc brakes as you can not tell they are there on the wheels.

Overall I do like the coaches but I think Hornby could of done a bit better. looking at the Oxford rail MK3s with their painted interiors, separate disc brakes and more separately fitted details for the same price. Plus I did not have to send one back with paint defects. 

Hoping that we get updated HST Slam Doors MK3 next  Hornby or Oxford Rail as they have shown samples of HST versions.

[ThaneofFife]

seems very jerky in places. snatching amost.

[GraemeWatson]

I searched this forum before asking this question, and had not seen anyone mention it.

 

Is there any particular reason why the GWR Sliding Door Mk3s are fitted with pizza cutter wheels (deep wheel flanges)?

[adamvb]

On 13/06/2020 at 07:30, JohnC said:

I have fitted Hunt couplings but still the same problem if the coupling does not centralise after traversing a corner.

 

Hi John

 

I'm having exactly the same issue - I've shaved a little bit off the tip of the coupling cam as suggested in the video that Hunt Couplings posted below your post, but still no success. It seems to work on up to 3 or 4 coaches, but as soon as you add on the rest of the XC 7 Car rake (with or without dummy power car) it starts to have issues - theres lots of clicking when pulling, but as soon as you start running with the power car pushing the coaches (despite appearing to have moving cams and the hunt coupling being relatively straight) the coach gangways clang against each other on the inner end of the curve and derail each other.

 

I'm not sure what else to try and I am waiting a response from Hunt Couplings, but these don't seem to work as well initially as the original couplings that were fitted in terms of reliability, or as well as the MK3 Clip Hunt Couplings I've fitted to my older MK3 rakes which are fantastic.

 

Does anyone have the combination of a longer length sliding door MK3 rake and the Hunt Couplings working well? All suggestions gratefully received!

[TomScrut]

28 minutes ago, adamvb said:

Does anyone have the combination of a longer length sliding door MK3 rake and the Hunt Couplings working well? All suggestions gratefully received!

 

Swap one of the HST hunts with the next longest length, I think the HST ones are the same as ultra close so swap for close and it gives enough clearance for R2. This is what I did to mine and they are fine as far as the couplers are concerned.

 

I did have a coupling part company the other day which meant (because I wasn't paying attention) my power car clobbering my dummy at a scale 70mph!

[adamvb]

16 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Swap one of the HST hunts with the next longest length, I think the HST ones are the same as ultra close so swap for close and it gives enough clearance for R2. This is what I did to mine and they are fine as far as the couplers are concerned.

 

I did have a coupling part company the other day which meant (because I wasn't paying attention) my power car clobbering my dummy at a scale 70mph!

 

Hi Tom

 

Hopefully there wasn't any battle scars!
 

I've tried using a Close (about 2mm longer) in each pair of couplings, but they are still not working beyond a length of 3 or 4 coaches. On the straight they seem fine as below:

 

But get to a corner (4th radius) and:

(this is between coach B and A (at the rear of the train, with coaches C-G ahead of it)

 

 

The couplings swing out, and the gangways clash still. I've also tried using a close version coupling throughout rather than the MK3SD ones. When I test each of the couplings invidivually they swing fine and don't snag at all - so I'm baffled!

Edited June 29, 2020 by adamvb
Amend photo size.

[TomScrut]

Ah right I see what you mean. I think this must be what happened with mine although it has only happened the once. As mine is a ScotRail set I only have 4 coaches.

 

[Roddy Angus]

From the look of those pictures it would appear to be the close coupling cams that are not working properly as the magnets are being forced apart.  Are they sticking?

 

I had a similar problem with the Oxford coaches and had to loosen the screw holding the interior, which also holds the un-coupling mechanism in place, to get them to work properly. 

 

Sorry I can't help more but I don't have my ScotRail coaches yet and don't know the exact setup.

 

Best wishes

Roddy

[GraemeWatson]

I've taken a photo of the pizza cutter wheels from my sliding door GWR coach.

They obviously have a detailed brake disc element to them, but really deep flanges, that makes them unsuitable for fine scale trackwork. Are these present on XC/Scotrail coaches? Is it possibly an oversight from Hornby, or is there a reason they have such deep flanges?

[TomScrut]

19 minutes ago, GraemeWatson said:

Are these present on XC/Scotrail coaches?

 

I think my SR ones are like that

[Class 158 productions]

Next year, it could well be another batch of mk3sd as well as some castle class power cars (nameplates and appropriate mods). I have a feeling that we might see some stagnation, if these coaches keep coming. 

[adamvb]

2 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

From the look of those pictures it would appear to be the close coupling cams that are not working properly as the magnets are being forced apart.  Are they sticking?

 

I had a similar problem with the Oxford coaches and had to loosen the screw holding the interior, which also holds the un-coupling mechanism in place, to get them to work properly. 

 

Sorry I can't help more but I don't have my ScotRail coaches yet and don't know the exact setup.

 

Best wishes

Roddy

Hi Roddy

 

When they are at the front of the rake being pushed they are fine, and when they are at the rear (with a rake of 4) they are fine. They feel really smooth when hand pushed and when observed without the body and interior on them they can be seen smoothly traversing the central point of the chasis V. Its as if they are not strong enough to keep straight when being pushed with the weight of a full rake infront of them. It's really odd (and frustrating!)

[43055]

5 hours ago, GraemeWatson said:

I've taken a photo of the pizza cutter wheels from my sliding door GWR coach.

They obviously have a detailed brake disc element to them, but really deep flanges, that makes them unsuitable for fine scale trackwork. Are these present on XC/Scotrail coaches? Is it possibly an oversight from Hornby, or is there a reason they have such deep flanges?

It's very similar on my Cross Country ones as well.

[JohnC]

On 28/06/2020 at 20:36, adamvb said:

 

Hi John

 

I'm having exactly the same issue - I've shaved a little bit off the tip of the coupling cam as suggested in the video that Hunt Couplings posted below your post, but still no success. It seems to work on up to 3 or 4 coaches, but as soon as you add on the rest of the XC 7 Car rake (with or without dummy power car) it starts to have issues - theres lots of clicking when pulling, but as soon as you start running with the power car pushing the coaches (despite appearing to have moving cams and the hunt coupling being relatively straight) the coach gangways clang against each other on the inner end of the curve and derail each other.

 

I'm not sure what else to try and I am waiting a response from Hunt Couplings, but these don't seem to work as well initially as the original couplings that were fitted in terms of reliability, or as well as the MK3 Clip Hunt Couplings I've fitted to my older MK3 rakes which are fantastic.

 

Does anyone have the combination of a longer length sliding door MK3 rake and the Hunt Couplings working well? All suggestions gratefully received!

Hi Adam

I have done the same as you plus added some Kadee graphite grease to the cam area and still not successful unfortunately.

So annoying as the Hunt couplings fitted to all my other HST rakes work superbly in both push and pull mode.

John

[GEOEng03]

17 hours ago, 43055 said:

It's very similar on my Cross Country ones as well.

it looks like they may have changed the way they manufacture the wheel sets to get the brake disc effect.  I wonder if there are limitations to casting such small details, which is why they have now got an over sized flange. 

 

I have just started looking at my 3 sets and a number have the wobble.  This frustrates me a bit and will look to see if there is a quick fix. 

Cheers 

Edited June 30, 2020 by GEOEng03
typo

[43055]

1 hour ago, GEOEng03 said:

it looks like they may have changed the way they manufacture the wheel sets to get the brake disc effect.  I wonder if there are limitations to casting such small details, which is why they have now got an over sized flange. 

 

I have just started looking at my and a number have the wobble.  This frustrates me a bit and will look to see if there is a quick fix. 

Cheers 

Not sure. I haven't really had any problems with my set. Just one coach going a litle bit wobbly when running at high speed.

[phil-b259]

On ‎12‎/‎06‎/‎2020 at 21:50, nightstar.train said:

 

I’ve had quite a lot of success this afternoon. I replaced all the couplers with the semi ridged couplers that Bachmann supply with their Mk1s, the type that look like hoses. Vastly improved the running.. 

 

ALL close coupling devices will perform badly with tension lock style couplings!

 

Close coupling mechanisms are designed to use some form of solid coupling bar, anything else will result in slop, misalignment and derailments.

 

The Mk3s by virtue of their length may be worse than other stock fitted with a CCM but make no mistake - using any CCM fitted vehicle with tension locks is asking for trouble.

[adamvb]

Just to add to feedback about the SD MK3's - has anyone with an XC set noticed a warp along the bodyside on the plated off window side of their TCC - none of the other carriages seem to suffer this, but I've had 5 TCC's that have.

Edited July 16, 2020 by adamvb
Updated TCC number

[ThaneofFife]

they could have gone down the Dapol route and added etched disc inserts on the more modern wheelsets (or included a set in the box if the modeller wanted to fit them) . I cannot believe somebody thought to sign off on those pizza cutters.   are we going backwards or forwards with basic QC?

[surfsup]

4 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

they could have gone down the Dapol route and added etched disc inserts on the more modern wheelsets (or included a set in the box if the modeller wanted to fit them) . I cannot believe somebody thought to sign off on those pizza cutters.   are we going backwards or forwards with basic QC?

 

What I don't understand is that, this is an area Bachmann managed to get right, but Hornby has pretty drastically got it wrong. I've since replaced the wheels in my ScotRail set with Bachmann wheel sets which do include the brake pads, but give a much smoother ride. 

 

The other problem I've found with these Hornby wheels is that they do not sit at all well with Peco Code 75 Track - as the lima like Pizza Cutter flanges actually "ride" on the Pandora clips. I believe Hornby has, and I'm sorry to put it this way, naively designed them to run on their track (though the doesn't explain how noisy they are compared to others).  

 

For comparison I've put the attached photos below - In the first photo, the Hornby wheel Is on the left, Bachmann on the right. In the second, the I've put the Bachmann wheels in. Third photo is a comparison between Oxford, Hornby, Bachmann. (apologies for the dusty track - it sits on a shelf!) 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by surfsup

[Hilux5972]

Maybe it’s just me but I’m not seeing a lot of difference in the flanges on those photos. 

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

Maybe it’s just me but I’m not seeing a lot of difference in the flanges on those photos. 

 

Surely it's to do with the wheel outer surface rather than the flanges?

[surfsup]

3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Maybe it’s just me but I’m not seeing a lot of difference in the flanges on those photos. 

 

You really need to zoom in on the wheel / rail interface on the first picture I'm afraid - the flange on the Hornby one is a lot deeper (and sitting on the pandrol clip) than the Bachmann one on the right which is just clear of the pan clip. It looks minimal in photos I'll accept, but I cant accept running these on Code 75 track - it gives off more bumpyness than a pacer on full power! 

[Hilux5972]

Ive just watched and interesting video on YouTube from DeanPark. He said he had spoken to Hornby about the SC Mk3 because it was such a noisy runner, and they told him that the wheelsets were cast, not turned, in order to get the brake disc detail on them. He swapped them out for the standard Hornby coach wheels available in 10 packs and the difference in running noise was incredible. The part of the video about the coaches begins at 20:30 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Hilux5972
Corrected spelling

[JohnC]

On 25/07/2020 at 18:58, Eddie R v2.0 said:

I finally buckled and bought a ScotRail set. I suppose that given I drive the real things for a living then it’s acceptable - completely out of era for me but hey ho! 
 

So, what do I think? A real mixed bag to be honest. The colour issues are well documented- black around the windows and on the roof and vestibule ends when it should be grey. Can I live with it- probably because it’s consistently wrong. The roof on the power car is far to shiny- easy fix with a blast of roof dirt.

The silhouette of the 7cities isn’t actually as bad as some pictures make out. Granted it’s still too bright but again I can live with it

 

Turning to the body mouldings, pretty damn good to be honest. The roof ribs look fairly good, certainly much better than the Oxford attempt. There are minor details missing such as the crew access switches on the TSD- noticeable as it is in amongst the logos on the side. 
 

The underframe is correct for the TGFB, TSL and TSD but incorrect for the TS as they have compromised on one standard frame so all have CET discharge points (the TS has had the toilets removed and replace by a cycle rack at one end and an empty cupboard at the other. Should be easy enough to get a small section of styrene card to blank it off. 
 

Finally, the biggest disappointment has turned out to be the wheels. They are truly shocking. Most are not concentric and the coaches have a severe wobble as a result. I was warned prior to this that they have cast the wheels to get the brake disc detail on which has led to this. I’ve substituted the wheels for some 12mm disc wheels (Hornby R8096) and it’s has transformed the running of them. It’s pretty poor that you spend £140 on coaches and then have to spend even more on wheels just to get it running smoothly. I had to use another pair of power cars due to the decoders not arriving this morning but that’s life. 
 

So, in conclusion, so near but yet so far. These could (and should) have been a 10/10 but given the various issues they miss by quite a way. Will I keep the set, yes! Once weathered a few of the issues will become less noticeable and the rest I can live with- it’s only toy trains after all! 
 

 

 

I have exactly the same findings as your good self

I purchased 20 coaches - GWR, Scotrail and a XC set.

The coupling arrangement is appalling, as are the wheels.

I have had all my coaches apart to work on couplings and finally got my 7 coach XC set running properly after changing the wheel sets to R8096 sets. Just ordered a further 5 sets to change my GWR and Scotrail sets!!

Not particularly delighted after spending so much in the first place as a pack of 10 wheel sets means you are paying an extra 25% per coach to put right.

john