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Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches


Andy Y
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Hornby have stated on their Facebook page this evening that this Friday’s Engine Shed will be covering the development of the Bulleid coaches. 

Very much looking forward to these arriving and hopefully they will sell well and encourage Bachmann to get theirs out sooner rather than later.

all the best

Godfrey

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1 hour ago, Godfrey Glyn said:

Hornby have stated on their Facebook page this evening that this Friday’s Engine Shed will be covering the development of the Bulleid coaches. 

Very much looking forward to these arriving and hopefully they will sell well and encourage Bachmann to get theirs out sooner rather than later.

all the best

Godfrey

I couldn't have put better myself !.

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19 hours ago, No Decorum said:

:offtopic: How would it be if Bachmann were to retool the N, designing it carefully to be adaptable to the U, N1 and conjugated and unconjugated U1s? Perhaps that’s too easy. Should we ask for a River class too? :smile_mini2:

Remaining off topic - the difference in wheelbase between the N series and U series would be a problem ....... the differences in boiler height possibly less so - less still the cab cosmetics though there were a LOT of variants.

My vote would really be for the one you don't mention - the W ......... though fitting those steps over the valve gear might be challenging !

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Smaller windows because of the beading ?? *. This is the first time I've heard of this !  Also the outer Vee hangers are still shown as being outside the truss angles. They were inside, as shown below.

157243239_59Bulleidcoachunderframebraking.-Copy.jpg.391263e8bba7c370dbe032f04e05834c.jpg

 

* P.S. Edit.

Compare the depth of the windows in both this pic and that of Hornby's. https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/sr-bulleid-59-coaches.html  In both pics the level of the windows' bottom edge is the same in comparison with that of the doors. Also the doors' stops are mounted on the beading when this is in the horizon position.

Edited by Ceptic
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15 minutes ago, Ceptic said:

Smaller windows because of the beading ??. This is the first time I've heard of this !  Also the outer Vee hangers are still shown as being outside the truss angles. They were inside, as shown below.

1203988205_59Bulleidcoachunderframebraking..jpg.6608f007146d0f418d4524ffc8f1e527.jpg this !

 

An interesting picture as it would appear the corridor handrails are not chrome?

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On 24/05/2019 at 16:00, RFS said:

 

An interesting picture as it would appear the corridor handrails are not chrome?

When was the picture taken though ?

the coaches look to be Southern green, but the extra “S” would suggest this is in BR days.

 

Was the chrome finish an “as built” luxury that faded away ?

 

That said, the BR image, at the top of the page on Hornbys website make those handrails look shiny too.

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/sr-bulleid-59-coaches.html

 

Either way, Ive touched the models in the flesh... This is by far a must have coach, silver or brown... they are whats been missing for years.. a decent Bulleid coach, even if its a short one.

 

Edited by adb968008
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16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

When was the picture taken though ?

the coaches look to be Southern green, but the extra “S” would suggest this is in BR days.

 

Was the chrome finish an “as built” luxury that faded away ?

 

That said, the BR image, at the top of the page on Hornbys website make those handrails look shiny too.

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/wagons-coaches/passenger-coaches/sr-bulleid-59-coaches.html

 

Either way, Ive touched the models in the flesh... This is by far a must have coach, silver or brown... they are whats been missing for years.. a decent Bulleid coach, even if its a short one.

 

 It appears (to my eyes at least) that in the early pictures, including the 'official' S.R. pics of these coaches, the hand rails are duller (wood ?). When pictured in B.R. Green the hand rails appear shiny (chrome). In the early years possibly due to post war austerity. Later upgraded when funds became available.

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On 24/05/2019 at 12:38, Wickham Green said:

Update on these coaches in the new 'Engine Shed' https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/bulleid-59-usa-flying-scotsman-club-locos

I wasn't aware that the B.R. addition of beading to the sides resulted in smaller windows - I hope they've got that right.

 

 

 

I'm not sure where Hornby obtained this piece of nonsense from.

The horizontal cover strip under the windows was added as the panel welds began to split.

This did not involve any alterations to the window size.

 

But full marks to Hornby for tooling the coaches as built, and then tooling for later bodyside mods.

If Hornby ever produce a set in Blood and Custard, then the ' as built ' tooling should be used.

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On 20/05/2019 at 09:44, Right Away said:

4B13A7C8-9B50-4A2C-9BB2-FCA21B96A315.jpeg

 

This picture has put me in a quandry! In terms of building up a set of coaches for my East Devon branch line, I needed a 3-set 'L' Bulleid set according to the carriage working notice. I had assumed that the relevant coaches were the Bachmann sets which they announced.

 

However, it seems the 3-set 'L's were both 59' Bulleid stock and 63'! And this picture shows they were definitely in East Devon! But which to choose???

 

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John. Find a picture with the Set number in the location you are modelling then check the size of coach from that number. If you don't have the Info for that, let me know the number and I'll check for you. Without being 100% certain I'd say east Devon was much more a 63' set area.

Phil

Edited by Mallard60022
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If Mike King's book 'An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches' is to be taken as a reasonably authoritative work on these Bulleids, and that Hornby would be expected to have it in their library, then maybe Hornby didn't read/look at it properly. While the drawing for the underframe on page 129 has the v hanger on the outside of the truss on the underframe, not one photograph in the illustrations shows that arrangement. Also, there appears to be no indication that the windows were made smaller, either in the pictures or the drawings. I can't really comment on the text as I haven't read it all through carefully, but when he mentions the later British Railways period, no mention is made of windows being resized, either the glass or the frame. So I'd be interested to know why Hornby thought the windows were smaller after the beading was added.

 

Edit: Mike King's detail on these coaches in their later lives isn't that exhaustive, so it's entirely possible that a detail like a tiny change to the window aperture size could have been missed.

 

Edit 2: Looking at pictures of earlier Maunsells in Mike King's book, it appears they had the outside truss v hanger, so if Hornby have kept their underframe from their earlier Maunsells, then maybe, as a cost effective way of getting these coaches done, they haven't modified the underframe to take account of this difference. Hopefully it's something we as modellers are capable of rectifying.

Edited by Ian J.
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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

This picture has put me in a quandry! In terms of building up a set of coaches for my East Devon branch line, I needed a 3-set 'L' Bulleid set according to the carriage working notice. I had assumed that the relevant coaches were the Bachmann sets which they announced.

 

However, it seems the 3-set 'L's were both 59' Bulleid stock and 63'! And this picture shows they were definitely in East Devon! But which to choose???

 

I'm not entirely sure of my facts, but I think the reference to the 63' stock refers to the four sets

that were built on 63' underframes in identical style to the 59' sets. The major difference being

an extra 3rd class compartment in each coach. For coach diagramming purposes they may have 

each been classed as the same type irrespective of length.

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1 hour ago, trevor7598 said:

I'm not entirely sure of my facts, but I think the reference to the 63' stock refers to the four sets

that were built on 63' underframes in identical style to the 59' sets. The major difference being

an extra 3rd class compartment in each coach. For coach diagramming purposes they may have 

each been classed as the same type irrespective of length.

 

No, I am referring to the standard Bulleid coaches that wernt built on the Maunsell underframes. 

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4 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

This picture has put me in a quandry! In terms of building up a set of coaches for my East Devon branch line, I needed a 3-set 'L' Bulleid set according to the carriage working notice. I had assumed that the relevant coaches were the Bachmann sets which they announced.

 

However, it seems the 3-set 'L's were both 59' Bulleid stock and 63'! And this picture shows they were definitely in East Devon! But which to choose???

 

I've just re-read the relevant section in Gould (Pages 6-7) headed "The 1945/6 3-coach Sets" and at no point does he refer to the 59-footers as "3-Sets L".

 

First mention of that classification is on page 11, headed "Introduction of first 3-coach Sets L"  which, to summarise, covers an announcement made in January 1947 to the effect that 24 such sets were under construction and that the first to enter traffic was numbered 771. 

 

My interpretation is that neither the "shortie" sets 963-980 nor the basically similar 63' sets 981-984 were classified as such. Indeed, there is mention of efforts being made to restrict both types to stopping services from as early as 1949. The later versions without compartment doors were to be favoured for more prestigious services, though I'd guess such good intentions probably wavered somewhat on Summer Saturdays.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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This is from page 20 of the 1959 Carriage Working Notices. 

 

1927977884_59CWN.JPG.994ae36f8435fde2327347b57d4cc2a5.JPG

 

And here, from the Appendix to the 1960 notices, reference to 3-set (L) being used on through services to the East Devon branches.

 

249674967_60CWNAppendix.JPG.77f149b40b0569c179c4273b01bb8dfb.JPG

 

 

So they were certainly described as such by that point, even if not originally. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

I'm not sure where Hornby obtained this piece of nonsense from.

The horizontal cover strip under the windows was added as the panel welds began to split.

This did not involve any alterations to the window size.

 

Elsewhere on the internet (Model Rail Forum) there is a posting from Adrian Swain, who has confirmed with Mike King that the corridor side windows were slightly shallower after the beading was added.

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4 hours ago, Ian J. said:

If Mike King's book 'An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches' is to be taken as a reasonably authoritative work on these Bulleids, and that Hornby would be expected to have it in their library, then maybe Hornby didn't read/look at it properly. […]

Also, there appears to be no indication that the windows were made smaller, either in the pictures or the drawings. I can't really comment on the text as I haven't read it all through carefully, but when he mentions the later British Railways period, no mention is made of windows being resized, either the glass or the frame. So I'd be interested to know why Hornby thought the windows were smaller after the beading was added.

 

Edit: Mike King's detail on these coaches in their later lives isn't that exhaustive, so it's entirely possible that a detail like a tiny change to the window aperture size could have been missed.

 

Would the SR/BR have countenanced two slightly different window pane sizes for the beaded and unbeaded coaches, meaning two sizes to be held as stock in depots? Could it have been that the raised beading was very slightly over the top of the window glass (creating a sort of lip) which made the window look slightly smaller without changing the size of the frame or pane?

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8 minutes ago, DavidH said:

 

Elsewhere on the internet (Model Rail Forum) there is a posting from Adrian Swain, who has confirmed with Mike King that the corridor side windows were slightly shallower after the beading was added.

I find that very hard to believe. Think about the amount of work involved.

How do you make a window shallower?. New glass , new sheeting around the window,

new two part metal/rubber fixing to hold glass in place, alterations to interior wood work

around window. I take my hat off to two very knowledgeable gentlemen, but on this occasion

I think some proof is needed.

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