Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[trevor7598]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

I've never managed to loose a handle from any of my Maunsells ...................... obviously not trying hard enough !

Like you I haven't lost any commode handles from my Maunsells, but when about to purchase one

once I noticed a handle was missing, I pointed it out to the dealer, who produced another coach from

his stock, this one had a damaged handle which was found when he checked the coach out of the box.

 

I did eventually find a perfect one.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Southern Railway workshops had a 10 year full repaint cycle for coaching stock, running in line with various steps in the overhaul cycle. Given the dates of the start and finish of blood and custard that would mean 60% of their coaches were due for a repaint in that period.

As the 59ft stock was built post-war it would just be at the point of repainting when regional liveries were introduced. 

[talisman56]

On 24/06/2019 at 07:18, Ian J. said:

I don't know if it helps, but the Maunsell three car sets that were 'replaced' by these Bulleid sets were marshalled in a particular way, as referenced in the following two posts in the Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock thread:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93720-southern-maunsell-coaching-stock-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=3400080

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93720-southern-maunsell-coaching-stock-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=3400236

 

The principle that was applied to the Maunsells went all the way through to the end of set working on BR(S), including the Bulleids and Mark 1s. The 1st class end of the Compo was marshalled next to the lower-numbered BTK, assuming the BTKs were matched consecutively-numbered pairs.

 

There were similar rules for longer sets, e.g 4-sets with an added TK had this inserted between the CK and lower-numbered BTK, with the corridor on the opposite side. Generally, 1st class on non-restaurant sets was kept toward the centre of the set.

 

Regarding handed Brakes, the last ones on Southern metals were the SR-built 'Ironclads' introduced in 1925 - only sets with an odd number of coaches needed handed brakes, these were necessary to keep to the principle of corridors alternating down the set.

 

 

[truffy]

56 minutes ago, trevor7598 said:

Like you I haven't lost any commode handles from my Maunsells, but when about to purchase one

once I noticed a handle was missing, I pointed it out to the dealer, who produced another coach from

his stock, this one had a damaged handle which was found when he checked the coach out of the box.

 

I did eventually find a perfect one.

How odd. I have over 20 Maunsells. All of them purchased online (some from retailers, one from a private individual who was selling a deceased friend's unopened boxes). Not one has a broken handle or pipework. Verrily, YMMV.

 

The only beef that I have is with the moulded handles on my two 'cleverly designed' 2-BILs. I'm going to have to remove the blobs before I can add decent brass alternatives, preferably without damaging the paint finish. Deep joy.

[Robin Brasher]

On page 121 of their 2019 catalogue Hornby describes the BR green coaches as era 4, early British Railways 1948 - 1956. I wonder how they will describe the crimson and cream coaches if they produce them. Otherwise Hornby has written a lot of useful information about the Bulleid 59' coaches on page 120.

[RFS]

1 minute ago, Robin Brasher said:

On page 121 of their 2019 catalogue Hornby describes the BR green coaches as era 4, early British Railways 1948 - 1956. I wonder how they will describe the crimson and cream coaches if they produce them. Otherwise Hornby has written a lot of useful information about the Bulleid 59' coaches on page 120.

 

On the boxes though they also describe them as "suburban" which they clearly weren't.

 

On page 139 of "Southern Steam in the South and West"  (Mike Arlett and David Lockett - the Norman Locket collection) there's a picture of set 972 in crimson and cream exiting Honiton tunnel behind S15 30826.  The train is described as the mid-day stopping train from Yeovil Junction to Exeter and is dated 6th October 1957. 

[Graham_Muz]

Regarding liveries some of the sets as follows did receive Crimison and Cream (those not listed below went from malachite to BR(s) green

 

Set 965 (malachite) SR Green to CLC outshopped March 1956

CLC to BR(S) Green outshopped June 1958

 

Set 968 (malachite) SR Green to CLC outshopped December 1953

CLC to BR(S) Green outshopped July 1957

 

Set 972 (malachite) SR Green to CLC outshopped July 1953

CLC to BR(S) Green outshopped February 1958

 

Set 973 (malachite) SR Green to CLC outshopped August 1955

CLC to BR(S)) Green outshopped 1957

 

i can also confirm that Hornby have used the correct style rectangular first and triangular red on white No Smoking window signs for the SR livery versions. (They are correctly different from the later white on red BR style. 

[MartinTrucks]

 

18 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Regarding liveries some of the sets as follows did receive Crimison and Cream (those not listed below went from malachite to BR(s) green

<snip> 

 

Don't forget Glen's 'Lake', Graham!  

Regards,

Martin

[Robin Brasher]

Bearing in mind that the sets remained in malachite green as follows:

965 March 1956

968 December 1953

972 July 1953

973 August 1955

perhaps Hornby are correct in describing the BR green coaches as era 4 (1948 - 1956)

 

After Nationalisation British Railways would have replaced the Southern lettering with British Railways lettering. With successive coats of varnish the malachite green livery would have darkened to match British Railways SR green which is why they chose that colour. It would therefore be equally correct to run a BR cycling lion locomotive with BR green Bulleid 59' coaches as with BR Bulleid 59' crimson and cream coaches

[Wickham Green]

21 hours ago, RFS said:

 

On the boxes though they also describe them as "suburban" which they clearly weren't.

 

Some people will describe anything with side doors as "suburban" ........................ and the vast majority of remote rural branch lines - as far removed from any suburb as you can get - were operated with non-gangwayed side-door stock !

Edited June 27, 2019 by Wickham Green
clarification

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

Some people will describe anything with side doors as "suburban" ........................ and the vast majority of remote rural branch lines - as far removed from any suburb as you can get - were operated with non-gangwayed side-door stock !

 

But these coaches are effectively the opposite - compartment side door stock used on main line services. Nowadays we would call that unusual and not what passengers should have to put up with. 

[Wickham Green]

Actually I'm not sure passengers should have to put up with having to squeeze through a single door at each end of ever longer, more densely-seated coaches ......................... but that's way off topic so I won't mention my personal preferences.

[Robin Brasher]

They were the same as the 59' Maunsell coaches. The toplight window enabled people to see which station the passengers were alighting from when they were standing up. It brings back memories, not altogether happy, of commuting to work to London. I wonder if Hornby will be putting carriage prints above the seats in future coaches or whether some enterprising firm will produce them as transfers together with luggage racks and passengers.

 

[bigherb]

Received my pair of brakes.

I was wondering if I would be disappointed with the glazing but actually at most viewing angles it is pretty good only the toplights really stand out, but being so small I'm not sure there would be any way to stop the prismatic effect with a moulding, flush glazing looks OK to me.

 

Noticed straight away the glazing is slightly curved hard to show but you can see in this picture so I'm not sure why people think it is flat glazing.

 

Certainly better than Bachmann efforts they inflicted on us southerners.

 

Overall I'm pleased with them, nice Hornby is still including a couple of rigid couplings. Bachmann, take note.

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, bigherb said:

 

Overall I'm pleased with them, nice Hornby is still including a couple of rigid couplings. Bachmann, take note.

 

As far as I know Bachmann still include a couple of their 'pretend vac pipes' style rigid coupler with heir Mk1s to allow users to get the full benefit from the close coupling mechanism.

 

Unfortunately as these are made as a single connector coupling up rakes can be a pain plus there is no easy way to separate them without turning the entire rake on its side.

 

Bachmann could come up with their own bespoke coupler allowing easy separation / joining of individual chicles if they wished though.

 

The Hornby solution is far better BUT for obvious patent reasons it has to be slightly different from the original Roco one and repeating this without infringing patents by yet another manufacturer may difficult.

 

[truffy]

1 hour ago, bigherb said:

only the toplights really stand out, but being so small I'm not sure there would be any way to stop the prismatic effect with a moulding, flush glazing looks OK to me.

If I had one, I'd be kinda tempted to run a little glue'n'glaze between the clear and boby plastic, to see if that would lessen the prismatic effect.

 

NOTE: I'm not suggesting that any of you good folk do that with your models. Just idle musing. I think I'll await the blues, and if they have the same effect I will have a go and report back.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

Has there been any deliveries of R4886, the BR Composite?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[45568]

25 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

Has there been any deliveries of R4886, the BR Composite?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

Just received an email from Hattons advising that they will be available July/September 2019, they were advised by Hornby.

cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Robin Brasher]

Southern brake 3rds R4884, R4884A, R4884B & R4884C & BR SR composites R4886A also not expected until July and September from Hattons.

 

Should we wait until they all arrive and then make an order to save postage or should we buy them when they come out?  Probably makes sense to buy them from nearest model shops as they usually match Hattons' prices on coaches.

[truffy]

If you order them together from Hattons you have the option of having them sent as one delivery. This effectively reserves the ones in stock. 

 

At at least that’s how it used to be. 

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 17:38, Robin Brasher said:

On page 121 of their 2019 catalogue Hornby describes the BR green coaches as era 4, early British Railways 1948 - 1956. I wonder how they will describe the crimson and cream coaches if they produce them. Otherwise Hornby has written a lot of useful information about the Bulleid 59' coaches on page 120.

The same presumably, as the two liveries existed alongside one another. The era system forever throws up anomalies like that, simply because, whilst things tended to start in a tidy progression, the way intermediate changes took place and stock was ultimately withdrawn was usually far less uniform.

 

Describing something as "Era 4" can only be completely true if the first example appeared in 1948 and the last disappeared in 1956. That happened to almost nothing.  What would have really happened to a hypothetical  vehicle first introduced in 1956 is that the original livery will have gradually disappeared (probably) between 1966 and 1972 and the vehicle itself between (say) 1978 and 1985.

 

If one must apply Eras, the few 59' Bulleids that received  crimson/cream did so in 1953 and went back into green in 1957/8 so both liveries should be described as Era 4/5 for these coaches (always supposing Hornby eventually get round to producing some in crimson/cream). However, until 1956, any green-liveried ones must have still been carrying SR paint but with BR markings, so the BR models released so far will be more correctly described as Era 5. Thus, neither Era 4, Era 5, or Eras 4/5 can absolutely describe all possible variants of these models as no individual prototype vehicle will have carried any one of the liveries for the entire duration of either Era, let alone both. All must have appeared otherwise before and/or after the portion thereof for which the stated description is correct. 

 

All of which reinforces my preference for the way Airfix used to do things, quoting the reliable date when a vehicle or livery was introduced, but leaving the untidy end date discretely hidden by the device of a + sign, requiring the purchaser to take a little time to read up on the subject and see how it fits his/her personal "Era".

 

John

Edited June 28, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, truffy said:

If you order them together from Hattons you have the option of having them sent as one delivery. This effectively reserves the ones in stock. 

 

At at least that’s how it used to be. 

My two brakes arrived yesterday and the compo is on pre-order. no uncertainty.

 

John

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

17 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As far as I know Bachmann still include a couple of their 'pretend vac pipes' style rigid coupler with heir Mk1s to allow users to get the full benefit from the close coupling mechanism.

 

Unfortunately as these are made as a single connector coupling up rakes can be a pain plus there is no easy way to separate them without turning the entire rake on its side.

 

Bachmann could come up with their own bespoke coupler allowing easy separation / joining of individual chicles if they wished though.

 

The Hornby solution is far better BUT for obvious patent reasons it has to be slightly different from the original Roco one and repeating this without infringing patents by yet another manufacturer may difficult.

 

On these coaches "proper" Rocos couple up easily and leave the gangways just touching on straight track. The Hornby lookalikes leave a gap.

 

John

[Oldddudders]

The Hornby malachite has long been under review for accuracy. A decade or so ago, 10800 of this parish published a pic showing it to be identical to Hornby BR( S) green, which was not what many wanted to see. 

 

Here is a pic showing a Hornby Bulleid next to a Derek Lawrence-made kit painted by Larry Goddard. The difference is clear. 

 

 

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, truffy said:

If you order them together from Hattons you have the option of having them sent as one delivery. This effectively reserves the ones in stock. 

 

 

The only problem with that option was Hattons wouldn't reserve stuff when it came in stock. Thus the potential existed for the items you wanted to sell out and none be available by the other bits you had ordered arrived from the manufacture.

 

Its much the same dilemma you face with prices - do you pre-order and pay full whack or sit tight and work on the basis that the item(s) won't sell out  in the initial few months thus allowing prices to come  down