Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[GreenGiraffe22]

According to Google, malachite is this colour. 

[Market65]

Google does not always get it quite right does it?   Anyway, I’m more than happy with the green the carriages are painted in and I’m waiting with baited breath for the BR CK to complete the three carriage set.

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[Robin Brasher]

I have got the Southern Style specimen colour samples for the modeller recently published by the Historical Model Railway Society. I have only got R4882 the Southern composite from Set 965 and that looks reasonably close to SR post-war malachite green.  The shade is slightly lighter than Hornby's Southern Maunsell coaches.

[Graham_Muz]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

I have got the Southern Style specimen colour samples for the modeller recently published by the Historical Model Railway Society. I have only got R4882 the Southern composite from Set 965 and that looks reasonably close to SR post-war malachite green.  The shade is slightly lighter than Hornby's Southern Maunsell coaches.

 

Which is an assumption that everything in any book is correct because it is printed... 

[autocoach]

My R4882A came today. I have to dig for Maunsell cars but I quickly found a pair of SR Malachite green Maunsell 58' rebuilds. There is a slight shade difference with new Bulleid being having just a bit less blueish green.  I would pass it of as a varnishing effect but the 58' Rebuilds would have just recently been painted in or just before my target point of time, the summer of 1947, whereas the Bulleids were very new from Eastleigh.  Otherwise quality is about the same. I have installed Kadee #17's but will have to locate my Maunsell's before checking out performance on curves.  Right now I don't have a layout ready.  Maybe enough will be ready by September when the rest arrive. Then I can test on my local hobby shop layout with it's curves, grades and 200+ foot length of loop (North American roundy roundy loop not what in North America is called a siding.)

 

Can't really complain of anything about the model. It is what I expected. The large windows on the corridor side do look better than the compartment side with less coke bottle effect.  Just have to wait until the fall for the brake thirds. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by autocoach
missing phrase

[JohnR]

For me, its all slightly hypothetical, anyway. In real life, there would have been many shades of the same colour on coaches, as each one would have aged differently, had different leayers of varnish - not allowing for the fact that different batches of paint might have slightly different compositions to start with!!

 

Look at any colour photo of a long train and you will see these slight variations within the same livery. The desire to create uniform fleets of coaches, all being indistinguishable from the next seems perverse to me.

[Oldddudders]

But within a set the colours would have matched. Always, as the sets were very rarely divided, and entered paintshops as a set. And the short span of Southern ownership means that the discolouration would hardly have started before they were renumbered into BR(S) series. So for Southern modellers the colour does matter. 

[JohnR]

53 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But within a set the colours would have matched. Always, as the sets were very rarely divided, and entered paintshops as a set. And the short span of Southern ownership means that the discolouration would hardly have started before they were renumbered into BR(S) series. So for Southern modellers the colour does matter. 

 

And all the coaches within a set will be from the same manufacturer, would it not? My point being it doesnt really matter if Hornby's Maunsells are a slightly different shade to Bachmann's coaches, or to their Mark 1s. 

 

They would only matter to Southern modellers who are comparing them to other identical Bulleid 59' stock. Of course if you compare them to pre-war Maunsell's the shade will be different - it was in real life!

[Mallard60022]

53 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But within a set the colours would have matched. Always, as the sets were very rarely divided, and entered paintshops as a set. And the short span of Southern ownership means that the discolouration would hardly have started before they were renumbered into BR(S) series. So for Southern modellers the colour does matter. 

That was almost always the case with the BRSR stock as well until, of course, they started to mess about with the Sets. If I remember correctly this little batch were hardly changed until the early 60s; I think one was extended to 8 coaches about 1964, but without getting at my Gould I could be talking carp? That would be a fun set to recreate but I think it was used in the London/Central/East area on suburban work and nowhere near Seaton Junction.

A. Painter.

[Wickham Green]

51 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But within a set the colours would have matched. Always, as the sets were very rarely divided, and entered paintshops as a set. ..............

......... unfortunately not ALWAYS. That is probably correct for a 'standard' three-car set which was built as a unit and ran as such until withdrawn or disbanded by BR ..... but there were plenty of other sets formed from disparate coaches over the years and each vehicle would have been on its own repainting schedule. for example, the two-car Ashford-Hastings sets formed post war comprised a 'Thanet' Third with an SECR Brake Composite and there are published photos of one set showing the former in malachite and the latter in 'blood'n'custard' ( my model - when I build the Roxey BCK - will be back-dated to malachite and Maunsell green ).

[Steamport Southport]

17 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Ignoring the fact that 21c123 was painted malachite during preservation so no guarantee of accuracy,  locomotives were not varnished so despite being technically the same colour it was visually different to the carriages that were varnished and therefore appeared darker even with just one initial coat of varnish.  

 

My main point is that when it was originally restored there was still plenty of people around who had seen them when new. I don't remember howls of derision in the press about it being wrong.

 

 

 

Jason

[Mallard60022]

Fortunately I only ever saw BR late 50s early 60s era locomotives and stock and so a lot of the time you couldn't really see what the proper colours were on locomotives. As someone else said though, coaches tended to have fairly clean sides most of the time but the auto wash plants were really rough on the paintwork, especially down Devon.

Philth

[Oldddudders]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

......... unfortunately not ALWAYS. That is probably correct for a 'standard' three-car set which was built as a unit and ran as such until withdrawn or disbanded by BR ..... but there were plenty of other sets formed from disparate coaches over the years and each vehicle would have been on its own repainting schedule. for example, the two-car Ashford-Hastings sets formed post war comprised a 'Thanet' Third with an SECR Brake Composite and there are published photos of one set showing the former in malachite and the latter in 'blood'n'custard' ( my model - when I build the Roxey BCK - will be back-dated to malachite and Maunsell green ).

This is a thread about Bulleid 59' coaches. What relevance do these other vehicles have?

[truffy]

55 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

This is a thread about Bulleid 59' coaches. What relevance do these other vehicles have?

It's relevant in terms of how 'accurate' is "accurate" when it comes to paint hue. Within a set, coaches would weather together, but different sets would have different cycles (not in terms of duration, necessarily), so variances would be expected.

 

To my uneducated eye, this is one area where I'm grateful for the 4' rule (and some degree of artistic licence on weathering).

[Wickham Green]

17 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This is a thread about Bulleid 59' coaches. What relevance do these other vehicles have?

Apologies for the lateral thinking and for not marking my comments as 'MAY CONTAIN OFF TOPIC INGREDIENTS'.

[Jack P]

To my eye, the Hornby version of malachite looks more 'varnished' than the colour you might get straight out of the Tin from Precision or Railmatch.

 

This video is worth a watch, (there's another rabbit hole we could go down around colour scaling, but lets ignore that for now.) I've tried to timestamp it at the comparison of Matt/Satin/Gloss and no Varnish finishes on the same model. I think it sufficiently evidences the massive variation you can get with the same base colour. 

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not into warhammer, or Miniature wargaming, Nor is it my channel, but I think that the theory is applicable to railway modelling. 

 

I think fundamentally though, It's unlikely that (regardless of whether or not the general consensus is that it's right or wrong) Hornby will change the colour they use for malachite, and it's something you'll simply have to put up with unless you plan to repaint your coaching stock!

Edited July 3, 2019 by Jack P

[talisman56]

We have that in N scale too. IMO, the Dapol BR(S) Green is too light and the Farish version on their Bulleids too dark. The difference when you put a Dapol Maunsell and Farish Bulleid together is one that you can't blame on weathering, etc...

[Big James]

My 2 just arrived haven’t had a chance to play with them yet because I’m house sitting right now. But they are miles better then the old Bachmann Bulleid coaches. 

 

Bug james 

[SRyan]

Received an email from Rails today stating the SR Brakes and BR composites are expected in the next week or two

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎02‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 19:02, truffy said:

It's relevant in terms of how 'accurate' is "accurate" when it comes to paint hue. Within a set, coaches would weather together, but different sets would have different cycles (not in terms of duration, necessarily), so variances would be expected.

 

To my uneducated eye, this is one area where I'm grateful for the 4' rule (and some degree of artistic licence on weathering).

 

Also, of course, the shade one perceives will be affected by the colour temperature of the lighting under which it is viewed.....

 

John

[Right Away]

Outer gangway doors on these vehicles.

Assuming they were SR "Pullman" gangways, would anyone know if these doors are available to purchase from accessory manufacturers?

[Mallard60022]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Also, of course, the shade one perceives will be affected by the colour temperature of the lighting under which it is viewed.....

 

John

Absolutely John. I know this because everything in my loft looks bl##dy brilliant, especially any modelling wot I have dun.

 

 

 

 

Then I switch the lights on...……………………

Ars£

[Graham_Muz]

My initial quick review of these coaches can be read here: https://grahammuz.com/2019/07/05/bulleid-59ft-shortie-coaches-start-to-arrive-from-Hornby/

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Right Away said:

Outer gangway doors on these vehicles.

Assuming they were SR "Pullman" gangways, would anyone know if these doors are available to purchase from accessory manufacturers?

I had a couple spare covers, included with, but not needed on some Hornby Maunsells I use in the middle of sets and they do fit. If you don't have a similar supply, it might be worth trying Peter's Spares.

 

Mind you, there is ample photographic evidence (especially in summer) that the Southern (Region, at least) often ran sets without covers, presumably to make joining and splitting services easier and quicker to manage.  

 

John

[Pteremy]

2 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

My initial quick review of these coaches can be read here: https://grahammuz.com/2019/07/05/bulleid-59ft-shortie-coaches-start-to-arrive-from-Hornby/

 

Another excellent review Graham.

 

I suspect most will live with the misplaced v-hangers - but if you wanted to correct the positioning is it simply a question of cutting off and moving to the correct position, or is it more involved than that?