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Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches


Andy Y
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2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Maybe more people would consider modelling the Southern malachite green era if Hornby ever get round to selling a Maunsell-cab King Arthur in that colour ....... or, for that matter, if another manufacturer does a matching Brighton Atlantic. 

I think the proportional "split" between modelling eras is fairly well entrenched and seems to follow (quite logically) the general demographic of the hobby. When the majority of modellers grew up in the 1930s, that was the primary era for which the trade catered. As time passes, no doubt the BR steam/transition era will become less dominant in turn.

 

It would be surprising if the manufacturers don't take that into account when deciding what prototypes and liveries to produce, in order to best satisfy the market segments likely to buy in the highest quantities.

 

I really question, though, how many people have changed, or would change/add to, their modelling preferences on the basis of one or two locos being released in different liveries. I certainly wouldn't as my prototype interests are quite firmly established. Quite apart from anything else, I'd have to dispose of much of what I already have in order to finance and physically accommodate such a change. However, there is a fairly strong cohort of modellers who build new (generally small) layouts every couple of years and might be persuaded  do so more easily. The issue with the two locos suggested is that, as large passenger types, they wouldn't sit easily on that sort of layout.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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But the manufacturers DO think it worthwhile producing SOME models of the post-war era ........... how far up the wishlist was a Bulleid Pacific with Stanier tender for instance ? - certainly not my top priority - but I'd pay money for another 1948 Exchanges era loco that's never rolled off the production lines : a skirt-less Gresley A4 in garter blue .... I don't think I'd be alone !

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12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think the proportional "split" between modelling eras is fairly well entrenched and seems to follow (quite logically) the general demographic of the hobby. When the majority of modellers grew up in the 1930s, that was the primary era for which the trade catered. As time passes, no doubt the BR steam/transition era will become less dominant in turn.

If that were the case, there'd be hardly any kettles being produced, let alone pre-war/pre-grouping. I understand that some/many hobbyists want to model their childhood but, having grown up in the '70s, I'd rather forget what I remember and hanker for the romance of steam, a halcyon past that never really existed.

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2 hours ago, truffy said:

If that were the case, there'd be hardly any kettles being produced, let alone pre-war/pre-grouping. I understand that some/many hobbyists want to model their childhood but, having grown up in the '70s, I'd rather forget what I remember and hanker for the romance of steam, a halcyon past that never really existed.

I think the steam/diesel changeover era will become less dominant as we baby boomers who remember it first hand drop off the perch. However, it's likely to remain more popular than most, simply because it allows so much to be run together without having to invoke Rule One. It also suits the trade to promote it because it means  they can sell steam locos to diesel modellers and vice versa, which helps maintain volumes in both sectors.

 

Also, of course, up to the mid-sixties, the rail network hadn't been torn limb-from-limb (sorry, rationalised and modernised) as it soon would be. Thus, a layout can be made to look reasonably convincing for pretty much any time post-WW1 to then, primarily just by changing stock and road vehicles. Signalling generally hadn't changed much other than on the primary main lines. In many cases, even the building colours remained constant and one can get away with interchangeable signage.

 

The other thing, which has been mentioned in other threads, is that, in recent decades, most people have spent their youth being ferried around in cars. Many will have received far more exposure to heritage railways than the national network in their formative years. This means that they are unlikely to have an instinctive predilection for (or, like you, antipathy towards) any one era when it comes to modelling.

 

I twenty years time, we should logically expect a much more even distribution of modelling interest across our railway history. However, my own feeling is that the proportion of the general population attracted to railway modelling may well decline as railways play a much reduced role in their everyday lives than was once the case.  

 

John 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think the steam/diesel changeover era will become less dominant as we baby boomers who remember it first hand drop off the perch. However, it's likely to remain more popular than most, simply because it allows so much to be run together without having to invoke Rule One. It also suits the trade because it means  they can sell steam locos to diesel modellers and vice versa, which helps maintain volumes in both sectors.

 

I used to think like that, but.,, that’s not the case any longer.

 

my collection is oversized, and my young one has gone into modern image, which gives me difficult choices over maintaining space...

 

Do I need 10 Bulleids, 10 Duchesses to go alongside my 10 class 40’s...

 

when I could model my childhood and my daughters and have it all...

1Duchess, alongside 1 Bulleid, alongside 1 class 40, alongside a Mainline class 37 and an SWT class 450...

 

preservation is the the only way you can model everything, and the old stuff is pristine clean too, Indeed you can run Deltics, Westerns, 50’s on freight in recent years, and in liveries spanning 1960-1990.., Theres a half dozen large logo blue 37’s running around, including one daily on mk2 Blue/Grey stock from Cardiff, When mainline steam see’s sometimes 3 round trips a day to Carlisle with 3 different locos.. steam is no longer a “special”.

 

I’m coming to conclusion that trying to live in a rule 1 world before my time is a constraint, that I can easily overcome by living in a rule 1 world more current.

 

Rule 1 can legitimately be applied in 2019, it’s more varied now than its ever been... someone’s even building a 10000 and a baby Deltic.. and a 120 year old NER rail car that won’t fit anyone’s period between 1919 and 2019..

 

A preserved line, with a shared Mainline station makes the layout possible... Alton, Kidderminster, Keighley, Grosmont, Eridge, Sheringham, Birmingham Moor St,  and others someday could include ones like .. Norwich, Taunton, Wareham, Castleton...

 

The only gap is mostly down to not having 2019’s modern image stock to run...

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

However, my own feeling is that the proportion of the general population attracted to railway modelling may well decline as railways play a much reduced role in their everyday lives than was once the case.  

You may be right but it will be for a different reason...

 

rail ridership in 2019 is way higher than it has ever been since railways were invented... railways play a much greater role than they ever used to...

 

unfortunately the sleek variety of colourful exteriors that gives us more liveries than BR in the 1980’s is often lost to grim reality of strikes, standing, high fares & canceled trains... no one will want to model that.

 

But I do think interest in railways has grown the last few years, I’ve seen a good number of interested school kids out and about recently with parents (myself included), I think the stigma of the hobby from the 1980’s is gone.

Edited by adb968008
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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

.......... a shared Mainline station makes the layout possible... Alton, Kidderminster, Keighley, Grosmont, Edenbridge, Sheringham, Birmingham Moor St,  ......................

 

 

Edenbridge ? ............. was that your spell-checker came up with that ? : perhaps it should delete "denb"  !

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15 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Edenbridge ? ............. was that your spell-checker came up with that ? : perhaps it should delete "denb"  !

I’ll blame it on the spell checker, but I was looking at my just arrived suburbans ;-)

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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

You may be right but it will be for a different reason...

 

rail ridership in 2019 is way higher than it has ever been since railways were invented... railways play a much greater role than they ever used to...

 

unfortunately the sleek variety of colourful exteriors that gives us more liveries than BR in the 1980’s is often lost to grim reality of strikes, standing, high fares & canceled trains... no one will want to model that.

 

But I do think interest in railways has grown the last few years, I’ve seen a good number of interested school kids out and about recently with parents (myself included), I think the stigma of the hobby from the 1980’s is gone.

The impression I get when travelling is that most of my fellow passengers travel by train frequently which might suggest that many others don't do so at all.

 

Certainly among my non-rail-enthusiast friends, hardly any have travelled by rail in the past two or three years.

 

John

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The Southern-liveried Bulleids cover a very narrow timeframe. Post war, but pre-Nationalisation. And while they wore malachite into the 50s, the coach numbers would be prefixed and logos would be gone, I suspect.

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26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The impression I get when travelling is that most of my fellow passengers travel by train frequently which might suggest that many others don't do so at all.

 

Certainly among my non-rail-enthusiast friends, hardly any have travelled by rail in the past two or three years.

 

John

Dont take my word for it...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Great_Britain#/media/File%3AGBR_rail_passengers_by_year_1830-2015.png

 

The numbers have never been higher, with record growth each month since 2017. The last time the 2017 figure was reached was 1916, which itself was a peak of growth going back to the dawn of railways.

 

Source is the ORR itself

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/663116/rail-factsheet-2017.pdf

 

Interesting fact, wealthier people tend to go by train.

 

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1240/passenger-rail-usage-2018-19-q4.pdf

 

Quote

Rail passenger journeys in Great Britain in 2018-19 reached a record high of 1.759 billion. It increased by 3.0% compared to the previous year and was driven by a 3.9% increase in the London and South East sector.

This just published last month.

 

For sure car is the winner, but rail isn't a loser, at the peak of rail enthusiasm, 1960-70, ridership was 50% that of today and declining to its 100 year low of 1980.

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38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Interesting fact, wealthier people tend to go by train.

There's a good reason for that. Last time we looked at taking the kids to London, we decided that it was cheaper to hire a car.

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3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Dont take my word for it...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Great_Britain#/media/File%3AGBR_rail_passengers_by_year_1830-2015.png

 

The numbers have never been higher, with record growth each month since 2017. The last time the 2017 figure was reached was 1916, which itself was a peak of growth going back to the dawn of railways.

 

Source is the ORR itself

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/663116/rail-factsheet-2017.pdf

 

Interesting fact, wealthier people tend to go by train.

 

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1240/passenger-rail-usage-2018-19-q4.pdf

 

This just published last month.

 

For sure car is the winner, but rail isn't a loser, at the peak of rail enthusiasm, 1960-70, ridership was 50% that of today and declining to its 100 year low of 1980.

I wasn't questioning the overall figures, just what proportion of the population made lots of journeys as against those who made few or none. Is there any analysis of that?

 

As an aside, our local station has a substantial commuter/student clientele travelling into Exeter, sufficient to fill most of a 159 just from here on the busiest service in the morning. The three busiest services between them probably carry 400+. The population of the town was just under 12,000 in 2009 and, judging by the amount of new building since then, is likely to be in the region of 13,500 - 14,000 now.

 

Exeter is the big area for employment in East Devon and, having occasionally used the A30 in the morning peak I'd estimate that at least as many travel in from here as work in the town with many car-sharing to reduce cost/ease parking. SWR get a decent portion of the traffic on offer, but there's a lot more that they don't. 

 

John  

Edited by Dunsignalling
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9 hours ago, RFS said:

Can we please get back on topic?

That's a bit blunt but at least it is polite. Surely some asides that are relevant are worthwhile especially from those such as Dunsignalling that actually worked on the railway and saw these coaches in service? Take a chill pill and enjoy the discussion.

P

 

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21 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Maybe more people would consider modelling the Southern malachite green era if Hornby ever get round to selling a Maunsell-cab King Arthur in that colour ....... or, for that matter, if another manufacturer does a matching Brighton Atlantic. 

 

Quite a while back they released 746 Pendragon in malachite.Occasionally seen on eBay.Hornby’s KA is one of the all time greats IMHO. On a historical note,how many Arthurs actually received malachite post war after the all over black regime ? Hornby’s version of “malachite “ divides opinion,at least on this forum.But then,was Bulleid ‘s version actually akin to the colour of the stone anyway ? 

    Please do not start Paint Wars......Oh dear....I already did...mea culpa,mea maxima etc....

Edited by Ian Hargrave
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Just now, Mallard60022 said:

John, are KD18s good for other Hornby SR coaches produced recently (e.g Maunsells) ? Thanks.

P

They are my go-to coupler for that purpose, Phil, though you will need the longer #19 if you want to couple ends fitted with gangway covers together.

 

The pocket height can wander about a bit and they sometimes gauge a tad low (though not by much more than 0.5mm). Kadees are pretty sensitive when it comes to height-matching and I have learned from experience to be picky about it to ensure optimum performance/reliability. It is simply adjusted by filing down the top surface of the clip until the recessed "18" disappears then adding a suitable piece if plasticard packing to the bottom of the pocket.

 

I've done this to the van ends of my 59' Bulleids, and they now gauge plus and minus nowt. I use (inverted) Rocos within sets so leave everything else alone.  

 

John 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They are my go-to coupler for that purpose, Phil, though you will need the longer #19 if you want to couple ends fitted with gangway covers together.

The pocket height can wander about a bit and they sometimes gauge a tad low (though not by much more than 0.5mm). Kadees are pretty sensitive when it comes to height-matching and I have learned from experience to be picky about it to ensure optimum performance/reliability. It is simply adjusted by filing down the top surface of the clip until the recessed "18" disappears then adding a suitable piece if plasticard packing to the bottom of the pocket.

I've done this to the van ends of my 59' Bulleids, and they now gauge plus and minus nowt. I use (inverted) Rocos within sets so leave everything else alone.  

John 

XLNT thank you. I find with many of the newer coaches that, when I keep the existing coupling and use the Modellers Mecca* Gangway Connectors, you lose sight of the couplings and the coaches 'look connected'. I think the gangway connectors are less expensive than the KDs? Also I am a lazy ###### and want to try and keep a simple standard inner coupling for coaches wherever possible.

*The strange wings on the connectors get trimmed a bit as they look weird IMO.

Phil

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50 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

Quite a while back they released 746 Pendragon in malachite.Occasionally seen on eBay.Hornby’s KA is one of the all time greats IMHO. On a historical note,how many Arthurs actually received malachite post war after the all over black regime ? Hornby’s version of “malachite “ divides opinion,at least on this forum.But then,was Bulleid ‘s version actually akin to the colour of the stone anyway ? 

    Please do not start Paint Wars......

I can't remember the source, but seem to recall reading somewhere that it was six. It didn't state which six, though!

 

However, I instinctively thought that number rather low as I'm sure that more locos than that would have required "generals" (and thus been repainted) between the end of the war and nationalisation.

 

If you have the "Book of the King Arthur 4-6-0s," (and assuming it includes Mr Derry's usual levels of data) it shouldn't be hard to extract the information.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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42 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

XLNT thank you. I find with many of the newer coaches that, when I keep the existing coupling and use the Modellers Mecca* Gangway Connectors, you lose sight of the couplings and the coaches 'look connected'. I think the gangway connectors are less expensive than the KDs? Also I am a lazy ###### and want to try and keep a simple standard inner coupling for coaches wherever possible.

*The strange wings on the connectors get trimmed a bit as they look weird IMO.

Phil

I've used the MJT ones (and home-made equivalents) but I take the plastic gangways off first. Along with the Roco couplers, they produce the correct spacing between the coaches rather than just filling overscale gaps. "Correct" on Southern coaches is 6mm between adjacent roof ends. The inherent springiness keeps everything touching even when the CCUs increase the gap on curves. ISTR the Modellers Mecca gangways (mine have since been replaced by my "standard" pattern) are long enough that it was only necessary to have one between a pair of coaches.  

 

I consider the improved appearance worth the extra effort (and don't have any compunction in altering models to suit my needs) but it's one of those jobs that, having done one set, I'll have to do all of them... 

 

This all stems from when I began improving Bachmann Bulleids about 20 years ago, including the fitment of Keen CCUs. That first 5-set has just received a full refurbishment, including a complete new set of bogies and wheels. Also, I finally got round to replacing the generic Bachmann footboards with ones of the proper lengths.:angel: 

 

Making gangways is something I have to be in the mood for, though, so there's a "waiting list" for this treatment and as the inner gangways of these Bulleids touch on straight track (with the Rocos fitted), they won't be jumping the queue. 

 

John

 

 

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