Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[Robin Brasher]

T9 with some Bulleid  BR SR 59' coaches in malachite green crossing Corfe Viaduct to Swanage from Salisbury.  After World War Two the Southern was the only UK railway to paint its locomotives and coaches the same colour although the model railway companies seem to be unable to reproduce this in miniature as the Hornby T9 is a lighter colour than the coaches.

 

The view can be dated just after nationalisation with the train still in Southern malachite green but with British Railways lettering.

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Comparison of BR SR Bulleid coaches by Bachmann and Hornby.  The bodies seem to be in a similar shade of green which may be correct for the Hornby version in Southern malachite green with BR lettering for the early 1950s but is not correct for the Bachmann version which came out after Nationalisation and would have been painted in the darker BR SR green in the mid 1950s.

 

The Hornby version looks much more sophisticated with the flush glazed windows and painted seats.

 

I like the dark grey roof on the Bachmann model. In service coach roofs became almost black from smoke and brake dust. One of my friends used to repaint the model coach roofs as soon as he bought them.

I'd be very disappointed if the Hornby models weren't a great deal more sophisticated than the Bachmann ones, which date back almost a quarter of a century. They may actually be rather older than that if (as is widely surmised) they were almost fully developed by Airfix and/or Mainline prior to the birth of Bachmann.

 

As for the repainting into green, bear in mind that 75% of the 59-footers would have gone directly from SR green to BR green, whilst a high proportion of the 63-foot coaches would have carried crimson and cream in between (or from new in the case of BR-built Bulleids).

 

BR(S) green began to be applied in 1956 and AFAIK, by the end of 1959, all remaining SR-built corridor stock had either received it or been condemned. Thus, while it's use can fairly be said to have commenced in the mid-1950s, the bulk of the process happened in the latter half of the decade.

 

John

Edited July 26, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

Doing a bit of running tonight and I had one of the new brakes at the rear of the train. When I did a shunt it derailed on a particular set of points. Swapped it for the other brake and the same thing happened. Tried it with Hawksworth, Stanier and Collett coaches and all shunted OK. 

Looking for the fault there seemed to be poor movement in the close coupling mechanism restricting or fouling the bogie movement. Anyone else had any problems?

[Robin Brasher]

I have not tried shunting my Bulleid 59' coaches yet. Coming back to Dunsignalling's post both Airfix and Mainline came close to producing Bulleid coaches. Airfix went as far as producing some sample models. Bearing in mind that the Bachmann models were the third attempt they fell short of the standard set by Mainline in terms of livery, glazing and choice of prototype. The Mainline Collett and Stanier coaches were excellent models and have only recently been surpassed by much more expensive models.

 

Hornby have done well to produce models of coaches that were introduced by the Southern Railway so that they can make them in Southern and BR malachite green, crimson and cream and in British Railways southern region green.

[truffy]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd be very disappointed if the Hornby models weren't a great deal more sophisticated than the Bachmann ones, which date back almost a quarter of a century. They may actually be rather older than that if (as is widely surmised) they were almost fully developed by Airfix and/or Mainline prior to the birth of Bachmann

I’m looking forward to Bachmann’s new issue. Whenever that will be!

[Ian J.]

The two composites arrived today, so my two BR(S) rakes are complete, happily trundling along behind an also arrived today late logo 'Lord Nelson' with no DCC sound (ta RoS)

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Ian J.

[Oldddudders]

My 4 SR brakes are sitting in the luggage rack above me in the 802 on the way back from Camborne, having been supplied by Kernow earlier today. They won’t actually see the layout at home until almost September, though.

[AGR Model Store]

In stock at AGR - https://www.agrmodelrailwaystore.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=Hornby Bulleid

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 26/07/2019 at 23:56, TheSignalEngineer said:

Doing a bit of running tonight and I had one of the new brakes at the rear of the train. When I did a shunt it derailed on a particular set of points. Swapped it for the other brake and the same thing happened. Tried it with Hawksworth, Stanier and Collett coaches and all shunted OK. 

Looking for the fault there seemed to be poor movement in the close coupling mechanism restricting or fouling the bogie movement. Anyone else had any problems?

Due to the inclement weather I have had a look at the problem this morning. It looks like a design fault in the interface between the bogie and close coupling mechanism. It doesn't happen when the mechanism is removed. 

Will take some measurements later and post details, but I can see this being an ongoing problem shunting into sidings etc.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A photo to show the difference between the Bulleid and Maunsell bogies.  You can see the difference in size of the curved part of the frame that pushes the close coupling across. The smaller width and shorter sides seem to be causing something to catch when propelling and restricts the bogie movement.

 

[Graham_Muz]

On 26/07/2019 at 20:00, Robin Brasher said:

T9 with some Bulleid  BR SR 59' coaches in malachite green crossing Corfe Viaduct to Swanage from Salisbury.  After World War Two the Southern was the only UK railway to paint its locomotives and coaches the same colour although the model railway companies seem to be unable to reproduce this in miniature as the Hornby T9 is a lighter colour than the coaches.

 

Although the Locomotives and carriages were the same base colour no varnish was aplied to the Locomotives due to the heat etc and therefore the coaches with the varnish would have indeed looked slightly darker.

[Graham_Muz]

On 26/07/2019 at 08:42, Robin Brasher said:

Comparison of BR SR Bulleid coaches by Bachmann and Hornby.  The bodies seem to be in a similar shade of green which may be correct for the Hornby version in Southern malachite green with BR lettering for the early 1950s but is not correct for the Bachmann version which came out after Nationalisation and would have been painted in the darker BR SR green in the mid 1950s.

 

 

 

Whilst not wanting to comment on the model colours , with respect to the orginal Bachmann versions they are indeed based on those originally built from 1949 (with the later 15" deep vents) the first of these were introduced as four coach sets 80 to 94  and were in fact in malachte green with no ownership branding and S prefix to numbers.  

 

The 1950 buiit 5 coach sets 830 to 849 were introduced in Crimson and Cream from new ,

Edited July 29, 2019 by Graham_Muz

[John Tomlinson]

11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A photo to show the difference between the Bulleid and Maunsell bogies.  You can see the difference in size of the curved part of the frame that pushes the close coupling across. The smaller width and shorter sides seem to be causing something to catch when propelling and restricts the bogie movement.

 

This design change ought to make it less of a struggle to get the wheels out (or in for the manufacturer), as there will be more give in the cross-member.

 

I wonder if the coupling bar is catching on the end of the shorter "U" cutout when propelling through tight or "S" curves? Filing the ends of the "U" to a smooth curve might help to reduce snagging.

 

My experience with the Maunsell's is that it is all too easy for the brake shoes to rub on the wheels, and the same may well be true of these Bulleid's. Nonetheless, easy  to fix with a tweek once you've seen the problem.

 

John.

Edited July 29, 2019 by John Tomlinson
typing

[GWR-fan]

Perhaps like the earlier R41XX series Pullmans the close coupling mechanism really needs a solid connection between coaches.   I had to modify the contour on my many early release lighted Pullmans simply because the close coupling mechanism would get hung up in the bogie leading to derailments.

[RFS]

26 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Perhaps like the earlier R41XX series Pullmans the close coupling mechanism really needs a solid connection between coaches.   I had to modify the contour on my many early release lighted Pullmans simply because the close coupling mechanism would get hung up in the bogie leading to derailments.

 

Hornby did acknowledge this issue and provided free modified replacement bogies for these models although this was of course a long time ago!

[TheSignalEngineer]

54 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Perhaps like the earlier R41XX series Pullmans the close coupling mechanism really needs a solid connection between coaches.   I had to modify the contour on my many early release lighted Pullmans simply because the close coupling mechanism would get hung up in the bogie leading to derailments.

The problem is not so much between coaches although this can happen, but the leading coach of the shunt wanting to follow the straight rather than the turnout.

I wondered if it was a weight issue but they are almost identical to the other recent types.

[GWR-fan]

I found that the close coupling cam would bind in the cutout in the bogie causing the bogie to be fixed in a straight direction and unable to track correctly.  Remedial work was needed to cure this.   Perhaps Hornby have inadvertently reinstated the problem that they had with the earlier Pullman close coupling.

[trevor7598]

My 3 car set arrived today, and has been running faultlessly on my garden railway for two hours.

However I am not happy with the glazing. The prismatic effect is not so noticeable in natural daylight,

but to me is reminiscent of the early flush glaze kits of years gone by. I would also question the vertical

beading between each compartment on every vehicle. I would like to see an image of an entire set with this feature.

I am pleased to have a 3 car set, but I am not delighted with them.

 

Hornby have done better.

[RFS]

On 29/07/2019 at 00:00, TheSignalEngineer said:

A photo to show the difference between the Bulleid and Maunsell bogies.  You can see the difference in size of the curved part of the frame that pushes the close coupling across. The smaller width and shorter sides seem to be causing something to catch when propelling and restricts the bogie movement.

 

 

It would appear that the bogies are "handed" and that there is a small difference between each. Here are the two ends from one of my BR brakes:

 

 

The top one is the brake end, and the bottom the inner end which appears to have a larger recess. Moving the coupling bar back and forth with the fingers, I find the lower, inner end one moves more freely than the brake end one. Have checked my other brakes and they're all the same. 

 

Personally I'm not having problems but perhaps it might be necessary to remove the brake-end bogie and open up the recess more. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by RFS

[Dunsignalling]

From previous experience with close-coupling linkages of this kind, interaction between the link and the bogie is rarely what causes derailments.

 

The usual root of problems is the link not moving smoothly through its travel within the chassis moulding. If it "catches" in the centre of its range, derailment occurs entering curves/points, if "lock-up" occurs when the link is "over" in either direction, the vehicle comes off as it exits the curve.

 

In both cases, what triggers derailment is usually the jerk that occurs as the link comes free from whatever was impeding it.

 

The solution requires visual inspection of the link and the guide it runs in. The bogie needs to be removed first, it's quite a tight clip fit but mine came off fairly easily using a broad flat screwdriver as a lever. Once that's out of the way, work the link to-and-fro feeling for any resistance or notchiness in the movement. Sometimes a few repetitions of that is enough to smooth everything out. If not then the two screws that hold the retaining plate over the link need to come out, enabling you to inspect the link and its housing. TAKE GREAT CARE NOT TO LOSE THE SPRING, REPLACEMENTS ARE HARD TO GET.

 

What you are looking for is any trace of moulding flash or other roughness. Smooth off any you find and lubricate the contact surfaces using a soft pencil, at least grade 4B, but 6B is best. Reassemble and check the movement as before. If the link now moves cleanly, refit the bogie and off you go. If not, repeat the process until it does. 

 

John

 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

 

It would appear that the bogies are "handed" and that there is a small difference between each.

I think the difference in the bogie frame is to help factory identification, as the brake end has step boards and the inner end doesn't.

 

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

From previous experience with close-coupling linkages of this kind, interaction between the link and the bogie is rarely what causes derailments.

 

The usual root of problems is the link not moving smoothly through its travel within the chassis moulding. If it "catches" in the centre of its range, derailment occurs entering curves/points, if "lock-up" occurs when the link is "over" in either direction, the vehicle comes off as it exits the curve.

I was having another look at them after RFS posted his pictures and wondered if the close coupling mech was the problem as they didn't move 100% freely on any of the bogies. will dismantle one tomorrow and see if cleaning up the contact faces improves the situation.

[Robin Brasher]

A couple of pictures of my Southern set 965 hauled by Blackmore Vale and a T9 at the Wimborne Railway Society club night. A three car set is ideal for a small model railway.

 

It looks like BR set 968 is selling best.  On the Hattons league table of best sellers:

 

9) R4886 Composite

18) R4888 Brake

19) R4888A Brake

 

There is still a good supply of all four rakes.

[Robin Brasher]

Last night I ran my Southern set 965 at Winterborne Kingston on the Tri-ang Hornby test track. I was pleased to see that they were able to negotiate the tight curves on the layout. The motive power was a Tri-ang Hornby Stowe and a Wrenn Plymouth which can run on 15" curves. The pictures highlight the difference in shade of malachite green on the locomotives, the utility van and set 965 which is because the prototype coaches had a coat of varnish which made them appear darker.

 

If this is the case I am surprised that Hornby use the same shade of olive green for Southern coaches and engines and the same shade of crimson lake for LMS and BR locomotives and coaches.

[Wickham Green]

On 03/08/2019 at 08:26, Robin Brasher said:

The pictures highlight the difference in shade of malachite green on the locomotives, the utility van and set 965 which is because the prototype coaches had a coat of varnish which made them appear darker.

 

If this is the case I am surprised that Hornby use the same shade of olive green for Southern coaches and engines and the same shade of crimson lake for LMS and BR locomotives and coaches.

 

 

Unfortunately the green plastic ( utility van ) probably came in a sack of polystyrene granules labelled "GREEN" .................. the shade of 'malachite' on the Schools - as I've pointed out innumerable times on various threads - probably originates with a colour sample in the HMRS SR/LSWR Livery Register of 1970 and was, no doubt believed to be a good match at the time - the Addendum, published twenty years, later casts serious doubt on that colour being malachite green at all and, to my eye, the current colour used by Hornby is a far better match to the malachite sample in the latest 'Southern Style' volume : https://hmrs.org.uk/southern-style-after-nationalisation-1948-1964.html

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

Tri-ang Hornby and Wrenn denationalised their steam railways in 1969 which was a year before the HMRS Livery Register came out. I expect they based their malachite green on the Humbrol Railway Enamel shade.

 

I agree that the Hornby 59' coaches match the malachite green sample in 'Southern Style After Nationalisation.

 

I will be interested to read what the reviews in the model railway magazines say about the Hornby livery for the 59' coaches.