Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[phil-b259]

On 21/08/2019 at 23:43, bazza. said:

 

I'll have a look at the Roco couplers that come with the coaches.

 

To reiterate, the alternative couplers Hornby supply are NOT Roco couplers! They are Hornbys 'reverse engineered' ones which are 2mm longer and consequently still maintain a gap between Maunsell carriages on straight track.

 

The GENUINE Roco ones are what you need for these Bulleid coaches (and of course the Maunsells) - and these need to be purchased separately.  They come in packs of 4 http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC40270 or packs of 50 http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/28425/40271-Roco-Close-Coupler.

 

Roco even produce a heigh adjustable version - but folk should note that this adaptability means they are the same length as the Hornby clone  http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC40286

Edited August 26, 2019 by phil-b259

[Wickham Green]

On 24/08/2019 at 00:42, bazza. said:

 

Hi Trevor,

 

Or how about one of the seven 2-Hal units  (Nos. 2693-2699) that were built to Bulleid's coach profile, the forerunner of Bulleid's 4-Sub's unit numbers 4111-4120.

 

Barry

Yes, a 'Tin HAL' is an obvious half-way-house' to a SUB ........ but, as you say there were only seven of them - plus one or two 'replacement' vehicles for HALs/BILs.

[talisman56]

On 23/08/2019 at 07:15, Ian J. said:

Interesting about the Maunsells from the 390-399 series having intermediate buffers removed. Do 'we' know if that was a permanent change that survived through to BR(S) and scrapping? If so, then my Hornby models will need to be modified as I believe they have the intermediate buffers.

 

As the  Maunsell low-window 3-sets went through their whole careers without formation change or augmentation (apart from the inclusion of Restaurant and dining car on an individual basis in their early days), I would surmise that those with their intermediate buffers removed would have remained in this state until their withdrawl, which came long before the mid-60s rash of reformations and the March 1966 cessation of set working. I certainly haven't come across any note of their restoration during my research.

Edited August 27, 2019 by talisman56

[bazza.]

On 27/08/2019 at 02:43, Mallard60022 said:

One of your members wasn't quite correct I believe, if he/she was suggesting it ".....should have 2 Sets' and a Maunsell Dining Car 'in the middle". The formation would have been different with, I am certain, at least some sort of Open (3rd?) next to the/a Dining Car, (which was probably a First). Two Sets maybe but probably not 'just'  two 3 Car Sets. However I await to be educated otherwise.

 

P

Hi Mallard60022.

That's what I said earlier to Robin.  Mike King in his book "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches" states that the Maunsell dinning First coaches were normally paired with one of the purpose built 64 seat dinning open Third coaches or an ordinary 56- seat open-saloon Third. 

I think that the two restaurant cars would be coupled to the 3 car Bulleid sets, but not in the sets... Like wise I could also be wrong. 

Barry

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, bazza. said:

Hi Mallard60022.

That's what I said earlier to Robin.  Mike King in his book "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches" states that the Maunsell dinning First coaches were normally paired with one of the purpose built 64 seat dinning open Third coaches or an ordinary 56- seat open-saloon Third. 

I think that the two restaurant cars would be coupled to the 3 car Bulleid sets, but not in the sets... Like wise I could also be wrong. 

Barry

You are right Barry. The Southern generally operated their loco hauled  coaching sets in the same way as their EMU stock. Apart from planned seasonal strengthening of certain 3-sets to 5-sets, and (when necessary) removal/substitution of faulty coaches most would stay undisturbed between works visits. 

 

The 6-sets on the Bournemouth line were (I think) the only ones with Restaurant facilities included, certainly in BR days. Otherwise, catering pairs were generally treated as sets in their own right and would be added to the ends of or between other sets, not inserted within them.

 

For example, on the West of England main line, very few trains included catering facilities west of Exeter. When portions that had come up from further west were united to make up Waterloo expresses, the Dining vehicles were inserted between them, hence the provision of the scissors crossover linking up main to up through half way along platform 3. Longer trains that just required the addition of a catering portion might have it added between sets in the middle if the schedule and punctuality permitted, but it often just went on the front when the loco was changed, imposing a bit of a trek for those who wished to use it. However, in summer, it wasn't uncommon for Exeter to strengthen such a formation with an extra 2 or 3 coaches (either a short set or loose stock) ahead of the Dining pair at the same time. 

 

In general, though, Restaurant facilities seldom appeared on the WoE main line other than in "proper" expresses of 10-13 coaches, at least in summer. Even out-of-season, an appearance in a formation totalling fewer than eight coaches (unless being worked back to Eastleigh for maintenance) would be unusual.  

 

John

Edited August 28, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, talisman56 said:

 

As the  Maunsell low-window 3-sets went through their whole careers without formation change or augmentation (apart from the inclusion of Restaurant and dining car on an individual basis in their early days), I would surmise that those with their intermediate buffers removed would have remained in this state until their withdrawl, which came long before the mid-60s rash of reformations and the March 1966 cessation of set working. I certainly haven't come across any note of their restoration during my research.

I recall seeing a reference, some years ago, to the practice of omitting side-buffers being discontinued to avoid difficulties in case faulty coaches needed to be removed from sets. It wasn't explained, though, whether that just meant it stopped being done (which it clearly did) or if buffers were put back on those vehicles where they had previously been removed (which I only suspect to be so).

 

However, I consider it prudent to apply the principle that "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in this case. My Maunsell "S&D Set" will therefore keep them unless I find a photograph clear enough to show one still running without c1958. 

 

John

Edited August 28, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

For example, on the West of England main line, very few trains included catering facilities west of Exeter. When portions that had come up from further west were united to make up Waterloo expresses, the Dining vehicles were inserted between them, hence the provision of the scissors crossover linking up main to up through half way along platform 3. Longer trains that just required the addition of a catering portion might have it added between sets in the middle if the schedule and punctuality permitted, but it often just went on the front when the loco was changed, imposing a bit of a trek for those who wished to use it. However, in summer, it wasn't uncommon for Exeter to strengthen such a formation with an extra 2 or 3 coaches (either a short set or loose stock) ahead of the Dining pair at the same time. 

 

Let's not forget that while the trek through the train was a chore, once there you were going to be waited upon, and sit for more than an hour noshing. This is in contrast to the buffet of today, where one returns to one's seat armed with a bag containing a gristleburger and can of pop!

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

......... one returns to one's seat armed with a bag containing a gristleburger and can of pop!

....... or more likely empty handed and hungry.

[SRyan]

On the subject of the Maunsell dining cars coupled to Bulleid shortie sets, I believe the inner front cover shot of Ian Allan’s ‘Railways of Hampshire’ shows ‘Dulwich’ departing from Southampton Central in 1960 with a Lymington service coupled to set 974, which is followed by a Maunsell open third and dining car.

 

I believe it’s more Maunsells that follow but I can’t say for certain! 

Edited August 28, 2019 by SRyan

[barrymx5]

On 23/08/2019 at 11:19, Robin Brasher said:

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

The Southern version of the 3 car set behind the Merchant Navy look stunning.  I think that has decided me to go that route with my MN Royal Mail. Then eventually buy the Bachmann 63’ BR(S) set to go behind my Bulleid diesel. Easier on the Pocket. But if Bachmann does not come up with the goods I can always buy another Bulleid shorty set in BR(S). May even be able to get 2x3 cars in due course but platforms only take 5 coaches. Perhaps a little female accounting is required by not buying the Ransoms crane set I could save over £200 to spend on Bulleid Coaches! 

With different road vehicles for the different periods we  to try to achieve some historical continuity. 

[bazza.]

On 27/08/2019 at 02:43, phil-b259 said:

 

To reiterate, the alternative couplers Hornby supply are NOT Roco couplers! They are Hornbys 'reverse engineered' ones which are 2mm longer and consequently still maintain a gap between Maunsell carriages on straight track.

 

The GENUINE Roco ones are what you need for these Bulleid coaches (and of course the Maunsells) - and these need to be purchased separately.  They come in packs of 4 http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC40270 or packs of 50 http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/28425/40271-Roco-Close-Coupler.

 

Roco even produce a heigh adjustable version - but folk should note that this adaptability means they are the same length as the Hornby clone  http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC40286

Hi Phil-b259,

Thank you for that bit of information, I thought that the Hornby couplings were the same as the Roco couplings,

I will order some of the Roco couplings to compare with the Kadee #17 or #18 couplings that I have been using.

Barry

Edited September 2, 2019 by bazza.

[Guest Jack Benson]

On 23 August 2019 at 11:19, Robin Brasher said:

Richard Burkin has written an excellent review of the Bulleid 59' coaches on pages 16 and 17 of the September Railway Magazine Guide to Modelling which being free is excellent value for money.

 

The review covers details of the prototype, model coach bogies, underframe, bogie and wheels including details of the weight, livery and finish.

 

One point he makes is that the finish is eggshell on the model whereas it is gloss on the prototype. The Hornby Dublo coaches had a gloss finish and flush glazing and I don't think that their finish has ever been surpassed for their coaches except the Southern Region ones which were completely the wrong shade of green. Even so they had a charm of their own.

 

Today's picture shows 'Royal Mail' with Set 965 on the Wimborne Railway Society's track. One of the members said that it should have two sets of coaches with a Maunsell dining car in the middle but I have not got enough storage space in my flat for this set, let alone another set.

I bought the September issue of the Railway Magazine hoping that the modelling issue was supplied, but no sign.

 

JB

[JohnR]

9 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

I bought the September issue of the Railway Magazine hoping that the modelling issue was supplied, but no sign.

 

JB

 

Its not normally. The magazine is freely available from model shops, however. 

[Steamport Southport]

On 09/09/2019 at 07:41, JohnR said:

 

Its not normally. The magazine is freely available from model shops, however. 

 

That might be true. However many of us don't actually have model shops anymore....

 

 

 

Jason

[Gilwell Park]

My Railway magazine is delivered from publisher. How do I get my modelling supplement?

 

Roger

[Pre Grouping fan]

It's a separate item. I think model shops or probably some places that sell the railway magazine would have it too. Could ring up the publisher to see if it can be delivered? 

[Mallard60022]

How about contacting MR and ask if they could supply the local Library (if you still have one). Our local MR Club have a stack that they leave in the Costa on Platform 1 at Retford. Maybe there is a Club local to you that could get some in?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Mallard60022
Doh!

[Guest Jack Benson]

On 9 September 2019 at 07:41, JohnR said:

 

Its not normally. The magazine is freely available from model shops, however. 

 

On 10 September 2019 at 16:56, Steamport Southport said:

 

That might be true. However many of us don't actually have model shops anymore....

 

 

 

Jason

Some of us are utterly dependent on local services due to circumstances, no model shop within 50 miles etc. 

 

Purchasing a copy of the September issue of RM should have been the answer or are the two publications unconnected?

 

Jb

[JohnR]

They are connected in that they are produced by the same people. But they are separate publications, and I believe the rationale is to give model shops more of a USP. 

[Guest Jack Benson]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

They are connected in that they are produced by the same people. But they are separate publications, and I believe the rationale is to give model shops more of a USP. 

OK,

 

THANKS for your help, a phone call to Morton's extremely helpful customer service has secured a copy!!!

 

Cheers

 

JB

 

 

[Calidore]

Evening all. I hope nobody will mind my resurrecting this thread in the interests of sharing a thought-provoking photo from Transport Treasury -- 5MT 73115 passing through Clapham Junction with a single 3-set of 59' Bulleids, dated 9/61:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p697255697/h95c54173#h95c54173

 

This, to my mind, seems very unusual -- to see a service like this right through to London with only three coaches. Headcode and formation suggest a Basingstoke semi-fast, which admittedly seemed from photos to be services on which a great variety of motive power and stock might be found. But still, it seems more frequently to be composed of 5/6+. Likewise the Salisbury semis of, say, 1958-60 seemed often to be an N15 plus five.

 

So, a question which might be of interest to the perennially space-starved amongst us: just how rare is this photo? It's the first time I can recall seeing the like of it.

 

Adam

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Calidore said:

Evening all. I hope nobody will mind my resurrecting this thread in the interests of sharing a thought-provoking photo from Transport Treasury -- 5MT 73115 passing through Clapham Junction with a single 3-set of 59' Bulleids, dated 9/61:

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p697255697/h95c54173#h95c54173

 

This, to my mind, seems very unusual -- to see a service like this right through to London with only three coaches. Headcode and formation suggest a Basingstoke semi-fast, which admittedly seemed from photos to be services on which a great variety of motive power and stock might be found. But still, it seems more frequently to be composed of 5/6+. Likewise the Salisbury semis of, say, 1958-60 seemed often to be an N15 plus five.

 

So, a question which might be of interest to the perennially space-starved amongst us: just how rare is this photo? It's the first time I can recall seeing the like of it.

 

Adam

Can't remember where, but I've recently seen a photo taken in Basingstoke of a 3-set hauled by a U class mogul awaiting departure on a similar service.

 

Off peak in 1961 was rather less busy than it is (or was, pre-Covid) these days. A departure from Basingstoke around lunchtime would have been unlikely to stretch the capacity of a 3-set.

 

John

Edited January 17, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Can't remember where, but I've recently seen a photo taken in Basingstoke of a 3-set hauled by a U class mogul awaiting departure on a similar service.

 

Off peak in 1961 was rather less busy than it is (or was, pre-Covid) these days. A departure from Basingstoke around lunchtime would have been unlikely to stretch the capacity of a 3-set.

 

John

Especially if it was a Sunday?

Phil

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Especially if it was a Sunday?

Phil

Quite; I hadn't considered that, but back then most railway pictures were taken at weekends except for light summer evenings.

 

Some 59' Bulleid sets seem to have become quite active in the Basingstoke/London area, (and, of course, the Somerset & Dorset) from around 1959/60, prior to which they appear to have been largely confined to local duties in the West of England and between Bournemouth and Weymouth, except in high summer. I'm guessing that growing numbers of BR Mk1s on principal trains were displacing newer Bulleids onto their former patch. They in turn probably replaced early Maunsells as they fell victim to the 30-year directive, on off-peak and secondary services elsewhere. 

 

However, being effectively a compartment short in each BSK compared to their longer brethren, conscious efforts would have been made to exclude them from diagrams covering the commuter peaks. 

 

John

Edited January 17, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Calidore]

Thanks @Dunsignalling for the interesting posts, on both counts. I'll have to have a scout around and see if I can find any more photos.

 

Also very interesting that in this period there seem to be photos of everything from T9s, N15s/S15s to standard 4MTs and 5MTs or light pacifics on these workings. Perhaps there's some more information to be found in a book somewhere.

 

Adam