Hornby - New tooling - 59' Bulleid 'Short' coaches

[Mallard60022]

OK I have just checked my friend's Stevens Strattens Drawings and the beading is below the windows on the 59' coaches. However, the windows are shallower on the 59' and 63' all door versions; I make it 3" shallower. Does this help? Certainly I never had noticed this before.  

I am checking Diagrams D2317D2122 (63') nd D2121/D2316 (59')

Phil

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

28 minutes ago, trevor7598 said:

I find that very hard to believe. Think about the amount of work involved.

How do you make a window shallower?. New glass , new sheeting around the window,

new two part metal/rubber fixing to hold glass in place, alterations to interior wood work

around window. I take my hat off to two very knowledgeable gentlemen, but on this occasion

I think some proof is needed.

Looks like they were different size windows on all the Multi Door coaches; both lengths too seemingly?

[DavidH]

Adrian on Model Rail Forum mentions the door and window issue: "These doors are interchangeable with other stock which shows up markedly on the later Bulleid coaches which had deeper non-door windows than either type of "Shorty"."

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, DavidH said:

Adrian on Model Rail Forum mentions the door and window issue: "These doors are interchangeable with other stock which shows up markedly on the later Bulleid coaches which had deeper non-door windows than either type of "Shorty"."

Oh, there's some fun for cut and shut, if I could find a photo of an example with different doors.

P

[Ian J.]

Checking plates 138 and 142 in Mike King's book, there maybe (to my eye) a fraction of an inch difference in height between the original and beaded windows on the 59' stock. I'm using the bottom of the door windows as a guide, presuming they remained the same between original and beaded condition. Whatever difference there is doesn't appear to be big at all, so arguably practically impossible to see on a model (even an inch in 4mm/ft is 0.333mm, and that's difficult to see, let alone a difference in the prototype that may be just half an inch or less).

[Mallard60022]

 

 

 

 

Look at the window depths on these two compared to the doors!

I have never noticed this difference in windows before.

As a friend of mine once commented, that looks about 3" to me

V hanger on inside of frame in pic one.

Can't see the V hanger outside the frame here on the second coach. Present outside on the 3rd pic.

 

So, I now find that apart from the vent depth (thanks Dudds)  that is well known and quoted on drawings, I 've learned today that there were differences and one needs to check carefully if that is the sort of thing that you want to do to get accuracy.

Pictures from Bluebell site so 'public'.

Phil

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Oldddudders]

ISTR there is a 4.5” difference in the depth of the sliding toplights between the Eastleigh versions and the contractor’s. My vague recollection - no access to King or Gould while I am in Blighty - is that we are dealing with three quite different vehicles, of which the Hornby model on the 59’ frame is just one. 

[Ceptic]

The question of the Bulleid's multi-door stock windows' having differing depths is a complete misnomer.

Picture in Mike King's 'Southern Vans and Coaches in Colour', Noodle Books 2015, ISBN 978-1-909328-24-2. Page 81, Plate 111, shows compartment side of 64' - 6" long multi-door ex-CK No.5729 with beading between four of the compartments. All the windows are at the same depth in relation to the bottom of the doors' drop-lights and the same as the un-horizontally beaded 59' BTK on the previous page 80, Plate 110. One thing that stands out though is the position of the horizontal beading on the longer coach. It is lower. Half way between the rubber door stops and the door handles.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ceptic
To clarify what types of coach we are talking about here.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

This is from page 20 of the 1959 Carriage Working Notices. 

 

 

And here, from the Appendix to the 1960 notices, reference to 3-set (L) being used on through services to the East Devon branches.

 

 

 

So they were certainly described as such by that point, even if not originally. 

 

 

Given that, by 1959, Bulleid stock was being displaced from top-link duty by BR Mk.1s, it may well be that all West-of-England 3-sets began to be treated as a common pool at some point. I notice the list also includes Sets 521-4, which were BR Mk.1s.

 

John 

[Ceptic]

A snippet from the S.R. GA drawing showing the body side panel sizes. Note the Amendment 3. It reads 'AMD.3 Re-arrangement Of Side Panels Owing To Reduction In Sizes Of Sheets Obtainable'.

 

Austerity, or what

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

I find that very hard to believe. Think about the amount of work involved.

How do you make a window shallower?. New glass , new sheeting around the window,

new two part metal/rubber fixing to hold glass in place, alterations to interior wood work

around window. I take my hat off to two very knowledgeable gentlemen, but on this occasion

I think some proof is needed.

 

Didn't BR do similar with a few thousand Mark Ones?

 

Don't forget there were thousands of people working in the C&W departments. How long do you think it would take to repair a few Bulleid coaches? They weren't exactly a few blokes volunteering at a heritage railway.

 

 

Jason

[Pteremy]

As a WR modeller, with an interest in having a 'foreign' SR Set, I can can live with whatever compromise the Hornby beaded versions are - they look '59ft Bulleid' to a reasonably high degree of accuracy - which is 'good enough' for me. And 'good enough' for me to get the 59ers, when though I really want, for more (i.e. photographic) historical accuracy, the Bachmann 63ers. Which I will - if ever they appear! 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Ceptic said:

The question of the windows' differing depths is a complete misnomer.

Picture in Mike King's 'Southern Vans and Coaches in Colour', Noodle Books 2015, ISBN 978-1-909328-24-2. Page 81, Plate 111, shows compartment side of 64' - 6" long multi-door ex-CK No.5729 with beading between four of the compartments. All the windows are at the same depth in relation to the bottom of the doors' drop-lights and the same as the un-horizontally beaded 59' BTK on the previous page 80, Plate 110. One thing that stands out though is the position of the horizontal beading on the longer coach. It is lower. Half way between the rubber door stops and the door handles.

The beading was added over panel joins to prevent the upper and lower panels popping out of alignment as the original fixings lost their grip in the framing. 

 

Were the panels of uniform size between different builders/batches? If not, the position of the join must have varied, and the beading will also. Moreover, the third picture above shows a BR-built coach in preservation , which may or may not include parts (e.g. doors) salvaged from other vehicles, either by BR or later.

 

John

Edited May 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Ceptic said:

The question of the windows' differing depths is a complete misnomer.

Picture in Mike King's 'Southern Vans and Coaches in Colour', Noodle Books 2015, ISBN 978-1-909328-24-2. Page 81, Plate 111, shows compartment side of 64' - 6" long multi-door ex-CK No.5729 with beading between four of the compartments. All the windows are at the same depth in relation to the bottom of the doors' drop-lights and the same as the un-horizontally beaded 59' BTK on the previous page 80, Plate 110. One thing that stands out though is the position of the horizontal beading on the longer coach. It is lower. Half way between the rubber door stops and the door handles.

See what you are saying but do you mean that all the Bulleid's coaches windows were the same depth because that is not the case. There are definitely coaches with narrower windows.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Given that, by 1959, Bulleid stock was being displaced from top-link duty by BR Mk.1s, it may well be that all West-of-England 3-sets began to be treated as a common pool at some point. I notice the list also includes Sets 521-4, which were BR Mk.1s.

 

John 

Somewhere in the multitude of stuff I've been delving into I have seen the shorty sets in main line use down west, including one set at Plymouth quite early on (late 50s I think it was), along with odd sets in the long summer timetable WOE services through Seaton Junction. I suppose that on those Saturdays almost anything that moved was utilised for the WOE trains.

Phil

[autocoach]

Minefields of the venerable bead...

[Ceptic]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

See what you are saying but do you mean that all the Bulleid's coaches windows were the same depth because that is not the case. There are definitely coaches with narrower windows.

Phil

 Hi Mallard60022.

What I attempted to make clear was that these initial Bulleid ,1945/6 built, multi-door 59 footers (CK Diag. No.2316 & BTK Diag. No.2121 had the same sized windows (Corridor main-lights, Quarter-lights and toilets) as the later, 1946 built 64' - 6" long , multi-door coaches (CK Diag. No. 2317 & BTK Diag. No.2122).

These have nothing to do with the later 64' - 6" long, S.R. or B.R.(S) built, deeper windowed stock, as some contributors seem to think.

The only window sizes that come close are those of the B.R.C.W.W (Contractor) built coaches and, of course, Bulleid's own E.M.U. stock.

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, autocoach said:

Minefields of the venerable bead...

Too deep for my little brain I am afraid.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

25 minutes ago, Ceptic said:

 Hi Mallard60022.

What I attempted to make clear was that these initial Bulleid ,1945/6 built, multi-door 59 footers (CK Diag. No.2316 & BTK Diag. No.2121 had the same sized windows (Corridor main-lights, Quarter-lights and toilets) as the later, 1946 built 64' - 6" long , multi-door coaches (CK Diag. No. 2317 & BTK Diag. No.2122).

These have nothing to do with the later 64' - 6" long, S.R. or B.R.(S) built, deeper windowed stock, as some contributors seem to think.

The only window sizes that come close are those of the B.R.C.W.W (Contractor) built coaches and, of course, Bulleid's own E.M.U. stock.

Now I have learned something new yet again... thanks mate.

P

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Somewhere in the multitude of stuff I've been delving into I have seen the shorty sets in main line use down west, including one set at Plymouth quite early on (late 50s I think it was), along with odd sets in the long summer timetable WOE services through Seaton Junction. I suppose that on those Saturdays almost anything that moved was utilised for the WOE trains.

Phil

I remember riding them on Salisbury-Exeter stoppers (early sixties) - noticed as a change from the Maunsells that were usual a bit earlier. Also, several sets were allocated to the Somerset and Dorset around the same time.  I think they appeared in Plymouth/North Cornwall/Ilfracombe expresses quite often in earlier times, but mainly in local traffic later as newer stock got allocated to the longer-distance services.

 

By the time I was taking interest, I doubt one would have turned up in the ACE other than maybe a Saturday second or third relief at the height of summer.  

 

Gould also mentions some of the shorty sets being strengthened to 5 and 8 coaches (mainly using Maunsell vehicles) between 1962 and 1964. Also some migrating to the Central Section for use on the Oxted line (and elsewhere) after the WR takeover down west. Page 8 is particularly interesting but suggests they would have been quite a rare sight on the WoE after 1961.   

 

John

Edited May 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Final paragraph expanded

[Mallard60022]

I suppose everyone knows this but I have at last found the depth dimensions for the windows (not doors or bog windows mentioned here but I have those dimensions should anyone need them) on the coaches.

Original shorty 59' and 63' = 2'9" (no vents); small lights either side of doors same depth;

BR SR = 3'9", including vent (shallow or deep);

Contractor (BRCW) these had a sort of 'panel' slightly proud of the side sheeting and larger than the window: = 2'101/2" window, including vent (all shallow).

Incidentally, the suggestion is that fittings were stainless steel and that might include corridor handrails (?), however I can see wooden rails in SS fittings on some photos I have.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

I remember riding them on Salisbury-Exeter stoppers (early sixties) - noticed as a change from the Maunsells that were usual a bit earlier. Also, several sets were allocated to the Somerset and Dorset around the same time.  I think they appeared in Plymouth/North Cornwall/Ilfracombe expresses quite often in earlier times, but mainly in local traffic later as newer stock got allocated to the longer-distance services.

 

By the time I was taking interest, I doubt one would have turned up in the ACE other than maybe a Saturday second or third relief at the height of summer.  

 

Gould also mentions some of the shorty sets being strengthened to 5 and 8 coaches (mainly using Maunsell vehicles) between 1962 and 1964. Also some migrating to the Central Section for use on the Oxted line after the WR takeover down west. 

 

John

…...and that ER lot say they had variety! 

Such fun for us greens!

P

[dibber25]

6 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

OK I have just checked my friend's Stevens Strattens Drawings and the beading is below the windows on the 59' coaches. However, the windows are shallower on the 59' and 63' all door versions; I make it 3" shallower. Does this help? Certainly I never had noticed this before.  

I am checking Diagrams D2317D2122 (63') nd D2121/D2316 (59')

Phil

Be careful with that book. I seem to recall there was an issue with the scaling of the drawings. (CJL)

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Be careful with that book. I seem to recall there was an issue with the scaling of the drawings. (CJL)

Yes, thanks Dibbs, I thought I had heard that when speaking with Geoff Brewin (RIP) years ago. I shall see if I can read the small print in Gould (doubt that I can). I believe that Bill Bedford may have used them for doing some of the prep for etch drawings for Comet at the very start, but I have no evidence of that and I've never spoken to Bill about it either.

However, the difference in the early sets is really obvious from photographs.

Phil

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mallard60022

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Yes, thanks Dibbs, I thought I had heard that when speaking with Geoff Brewin (RIP) years ago. I shall see if I can read the small print in Gould (doubt that I can). I believe that Bill Bedford may have used them for doing some of the prep for etch drawings for Comet at the very start, but I have no evidence of that and I've never spoken to Bill about it either.

However, the difference in the early sets is really obvious from photographs.

Phil

The original drawings were 12mm:1ft so they had to be reduced to one third - 331/3% but the guy doing reductions couldn't set the 1/3 so he did them to 33%. It was noticed at proof stage but, owing to the cost of re-shooting them all, it was never done. (CJL)