Hornby - New tooling - LSWR Warner brake 'new van'

[MartinTrucks]

30 minutes ago, railroadbill said:

 

 

Back in the day, well quite a few days ago, must have been late 70s early 80s, I made some ABS LSWR wagons ( the type with rounded ends) in O gauge. They ended up running on a friend's coarse scale layout.  Because I tend not to throw things away (just in case like)  I've found the paint I used.

Humbrol Authentic Colour enamel, (remember that?)   It's HR 142 wagon brown, a mid chocolate brown with perhaps just a touch of red.  It's a bit lighter than GWR chocolate brown, and was allegedly right for LSWR.

I've just taken the lid off and the paint is still liquid and stirred up well, even after perhaps 40 years!   H'mm maybe it could still be ok for a couple of LSWR wagons to go with the brake van....

 

Current Humbrol acrylic paint 110 is the equivalent, according to the IPMS.

 

* The ABS kits were white metal, very thin with crisp detail. Adrian Swain did some very good stuff imho.

 

I largely agree with you. I have modelled SR wagons off-and-on since the late 1960's. The ABS kits were superb. Humbrol #142 was a good match for SR Wagon Brown (as defined by the MERCO sheet circa 1933) - see my post of 19 December 2019. I do not agree with your description of it though! It is definitely dark chocolate brown!

best regards,

Martin

[Butler Henderson]

The October 2019 issue of Railway Bylines has  an article on Kipps (Coatbridge) shed North Lanarkshire to the east of Glasgow, On page 511 there a photo of N15 0-6-2T 69196 shunting on 11 July 1953 coupled to S55043 complete with the route restriction in the place Hornby have put it.  Quite how it got to Scotland is something I suspect many could use to justify a dia.1543 brake van on their layout

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

The October 2019 issue of Railway Bylines has  an article on Kipps (Coatbridge) shed North Lanarkshire to the east of Glasgow, On page 511 there a photo of N15 0-6-2T 69196 shunting on 11 July 1953 coupled to S55043 complete with the route restriction in the place Hornby have put it.  Quite how it got to Scotland is something I suspect many could use to justify a dia.1543 brake van on their layout

 

Ex SR Brake Vans certainly did seem to wander. Here is an image of a Pillbox on the ex GN lines at Shipley in Bradford. There's a prototype for everything!

[Wickham Green]

In the days when there were mill chimneys as far as the eye could see ..... through the smog.

[railroadbill]

On 07/01/2020 at 23:19, MartinTrucks said:

 

I largely agree with you. I have modelled SR wagons off-and-on since the late 1960's. The ABS kits were superb. Humbrol #142 was a good match for SR Wagon Brown (as defined by the MERCO sheet circa 1933) - see my post of 19 December 2019. I do not agree with your description of it though! It is definitely dark chocolate brown!

best regards,

Martin

Thanks for that, sounds like the humbrol #142 paint is a good colour. Think I'll give it a go on some  lswr  wagons as I have half a tin that's still usable! 

Cheers Bill

[GNR Dave]

In the Feb 2020 issue of Railway Modeller the 'Railway of the Month' is Semley. It's LSWR to P4 standards. It looks awsome and well researched. The LSWR brake van in the photo on page 100 looks to be the same colour as the Hornby model. 

 

 

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, GNR Dave said:

In the Feb 2020 issue of Railway Modeller the 'Railway of the Month' is Semley. It's LSWR to P4 standards. It looks awsome and well researched. The LSWR brake van in the photo on page 100 looks to be the same colour as the Hornby model. 

 

 

 

What are you suggesting Dave? That arguments over the exact shade of Brown last used nearly 100 years ago are moot when considering models in the 21st Century? Whatever will we have to argue over now?

[mclong]

32 minutes ago, GNR Dave said:

In the Feb 2020 issue of Railway Modeller the 'Railway of the Month' is Semley. It's LSWR to P4 standards. It looks awsome and well researched. The LSWR brake van in the photo on page 100 looks to be the same colour as the Hornby model. 

 

 

The brake van in the article is a ballast brake van which would be painted red oxide with vermilion ends. The Hornby LSWR ballast wagon announced recently is shown painted dark brown which should be red oxide !

[Robin Brasher]

I enclose a picture of Normandy hauling a Dapol gunpowder van and a Hornby LSWR brake van.  I think that the gunpowder van is in the correct LSWR red oxide livery for engineering vans whereas the brake van is in neither red oxide nor LSWR dark brown. I wonder if Hornby will send out replacement bodies in the correct livery if they agree that they have painted them in the wrong colour.

[phil-b259]

27 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

 I wonder if Hornby will send out replacement bodies in the correct livery if they agree that they have painted them in the wrong colour.

 

 

Unlikely - a £20 quid wagon is not worth it.

 

Thing is, Hornby have done this before - A good few years ago they released a LMS cattle wagon which came out looking more dark pink than crimson. That one hung around for ages in shops and Hornby weren't bothered. so I doubt they will care about this brake van error.

[Miss Prism]

Try r79 g45 b36

 

(from LSWR and SR liveries)

 

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I enclose a picture of Normandy hauling a Dapol gunpowder van and a Hornby LSWR brake van.  I think that the gunpowder van is in the correct LSWR red oxide livery for engineering vans whereas the brake van is in neither red oxide nor LSWR dark brown. I wonder if Hornby will send out replacement bodies in the correct livery if they agree that they have painted them in the wrong colour.

If the NRM's example, as preserved at Yeovil Railway Centre, is correct, LSWR Gunpowder vans had a definite tinge of orange in the "brown". Rather like the ends of the brake van, the colour of which, I think, was referred to as "vermilion".

 

AIUI the colour was matched to surviving original paint found under several subsequent layers during restoration.

 

John 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[JohnR]

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Try r79 g45 b36

 

(from LSWR and SR liveries)

 

 

Now, caveats about comparing colours via photographs and PC screens, but comparing that shade to the brake van in @Robin Brasher's photo above, they look pretty darn close to my eye. Factor in the fact that the exact same colour on a 1:1 object will need to be altered for one at 1:76.2, and I'd say it was good enough. 

[GNR Dave]

17 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

What are you suggesting Dave? That arguments over the exact shade of Brown last used nearly 100 years ago are moot when considering models in the 21st Century? Whatever will we have to argue over now?

 

Yeah I'll leave the arguments to the experts on here. I'm off  to play trains with my new Hornby LSWR brake van 

Edited January 10, 2020 by GNR Dave
spelling

[Wickham Green]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Try r79 g45 b36

 

(from LSWR and SR liveries)

 

Careful with that site ......... the colours are taken - as it says - from the 1970 HMRS Livery Register but ignore deficiencies highlighted in the 1990 Addendum. ( I think Goods Brown's OK though.)

[Wickham Green]

14 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

...... I wonder if Hornby will send out replacement bodies in the correct livery if they agree that they have painted them in the wrong colour.

 

Dapol haven't sent out replacement bodies wagons 'cos they were the wrong shape .............................. an' you can't correct that error with an airbrush or rattle can.

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Careful with that site ......... the colours are taken - as it says - from the 1970 HMRS Livery Register but ignore deficiencies highlighted in the 1990 Addendum. ( I think Goods Brown's OK though.)

 

That caveat is on the page. If anyone has the 1990 Addendum, I would appreciate a copy.

 

Ideally, I would like to hand the page on to the LSWR Circle to get it sorted out properly.

 

[Wickham Green]

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

That caveat is on the page. If anyone has the 1990 Addendum, I would appreciate a copy.

 

Ideally, I would like to hand the page on to the LSWR Circle to get it sorted out properly.

 

Still available : https://hmrs.org.uk/addendum-to-hmrs-livery-register-no-3-lswr-southern.html ............. for a whole quid !

[JohnR]

7 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

That caveat is on the page. If anyone has the 1990 Addendum, I would appreciate a copy.

 

Ideally, I would like to hand the page on to the LSWR Circle to get it sorted out properly.

 

 

I think @Graham_Muz is your man there. 

 

[railroadbill]

 

 

 

For what it's worth...  here's the Hornby LSWR brake van.

 

 

 

And here's a panel of  RGB   r79 g45 b36 colour.   Looks a bit mauve to me.  Not sure about this.....  

 

The Hornby colour sampled as r79 g49  b21 by the way.  (photoshop elements 12).

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by railroadbill

[Anglian]

The issue with quoting RGB colours as a precise point of reference is these values will vary from monitor to monitor. It also depends on which image of the model you use and how you take your colour sample. Using Photoshop I get a quite different result to you and depending on where on a image I click and what size sample I take gives further variation. For these reasons the only way to accurately reference a colour is to use a known swatch system such as RAL. This is why I'm so amazed that Hornby got the wrong colour as they should have sent colour references backed up by swatches to the factory. I'm not sure how they work but I'd have assumed they would have been supplied with pre-production samples to sign-off.

[Miss Prism]

Advocating that manufacturers should send swatches of known colour systems such as RAL to their factories sounds fine and dandy, but there's only one slight snag. They don't do it.

 

There are plenty of online colour converters (e.g. rgb to hex, RAL, CYMK, NCS, Pantone etc), so rgb is as good a colour language as another. Note though that RAL is a limited range, and the nearest r79 g45 b36 (for example) comes to is RAL 8016 'mahogany brown', which RAL describe as 'close but distinguishable'.

 

The issue of monitor variation is very valid, but the nub of the matter is that in terms of talking to each other, whether it is modellers here on a forum, or manufacturers trying to communicate with a factory, 'r79 g45 b36' provides a far better means for a more informed and objective discussion than "well, it's a sort of mahogany brown".

 

[Butler Henderson]

IIRC quoting RAL numbers Dapols downfall with their 73s.

[MartinTrucks]

17 hours ago, railroadbill said:

 

 

 

For what it's worth...  here's the Hornby LSWR brake van.

 

 

 

And here's a panel of  RGB   r79 g45 b36 colour.   Looks a bit mauve to me.  Not sure about this.....  

 

The Hornby colour sampled as r79 g49  b21 by the way.  (photoshop elements 12).

 

 

Pick a shade (1:1 scale)!

Martin

[Anglian]

15 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Advocating that manufacturers should send swatches of known colour systems such as RAL to their factories sounds fine and dandy, but there's only one slight snag. They don't do it.

 

There are plenty of online colour converters (e.g. rgb to hex, RAL, CYMK, NCS, Pantone etc), so rgb is as good a colour language as another. Note though that RAL is a limited range, and the nearest r79 g45 b36 (for example) comes to is RAL 8016 'mahogany brown', which RAL describe as 'close but distinguishable'.

 

The issue of monitor variation is very valid, but the nub of the matter is that in terms of talking to each other, whether it is modellers here on a forum, or manufacturers trying to communicate with a factory, 'r79 g45 b36' provides a far better means for a more informed and objective discussion than "well, it's a sort of mahogany brown".

 

 

It rather depends on what the production facility do with the RGB information you send. If they simply plug those RGB or hex values into their computer and do a visual match based on what they see on their screen then there is every chance it'll all go wrong.

 

I write this from experience in working remotely with a factory based in China – we sent Pantone (PMS) numbers but they still got it wrong and I think this was because they viewed the PMS colour on screen, where it becomes an RGB colour. Even if they'd had PMS plug-ins loaded on their system it simply wouldn't be exact enough. The problem is basically that you are going from additive to subtractive colour and that introduces all sorts of variables. Had they had physical PMS swatches in front of them I think it would have been accurate and I never did get to the bottom of how they made the error.

Perceived colour changes depending on the gloss/matt qualities, so for example when printing onto paper or card there are different PMS systems as different ink values are required. Getting colour on products right is exacting and by definition RGB/hex is not exacting enough because paints and inks are not defined by RGB values/hex, as these are measures of light.

 

Depending on what source you chose for your RGB to ink/paint conversion will give you different results and therein lies yet another problem. You therefore eliminate potential issues by not using RGB or hex at all since it introduces the need for interpretation/colour conversion. You specify in terms of the method of production so the factory might like RAL, Federal Standard or Methuen paint codes. The other way of generating an exact paint match can be achieved with digital sampling. So for example, Hornby could have their trial models airbrushed here in various close tones so they can decide how much to lighten or desaturate the real colour, to account for the size of the model. Their final shade may very well not exactly match any known colour swatch for paint so they can sample the colour digitally and provide a breakdown of how that colour can be recreated using paint pigments.

I don't know how Hornby work but if I were them I'd be expecting a livery sample to sign-off. It might be that Hornby made the mistake and not the factory. 

 

A quick bit of research tells me that the level of gloss can also be defined in Gloss Units although how easy this is to measure on a small model I don't know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Anglian
Added detail