Hornby - New tooling - LSWR Warner brake 'new van'

[JohnR]

Are we STILL arguing over the exact shade of brown on something that was last seen 100 years ago? When paint was mixed by hand and different shades were the norm? And before the invention of modern colour photography under standard lighting conditions?

 

This is getting into "How many Angles can dance on the head of a pin" territory here. 

 

I reckon, if you were able to line up next to each other every Brake Van on the LSWR in 1922, you would have seen examples in every shade of brown that has been on display on this thread (and many in between), caused by different ages, different environments and different applications. 

 

We seem to have a modern demand for all our rolling stock to be absolutely identically liveried, when the real thing never was. 

[Butler Henderson]

11 hours ago, barrymx5 said:

That posting suggests to me it is not a Hornby B suffix model. Mine is and was delivered from Gaugemaster last week. Photos below show Hornby model alongside the same brakevan I built and painted several decades back. Colour is almost identical. 

 

Different running numbers have been applied so that posting features the same B suffix model with the running number 10124 and your photos show your models not to be almost identical IMO

Quote

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Butler Henderson

[spikey]

Can somebody please tell me exactly what Hornby has done with the glazing on these vans?  Depending on which images I look at, it's either non-existent, clear, or what looks to be "reeded".  I need to buy one online, and I'd like to be sure of the glazing before I order.

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Are we STILL arguing over the exact shade of brown on something that was last seen 100 years ago? When paint was mixed by hand and different shades were the norm? And before the invention of modern colour photography under standard lighting conditions?

 

This is getting into "How many Angles can dance on the head of a pin" territory here. 

 

I reckon, if you were able to line up next to each other every Brake Van on the LSWR in 1922, you would have seen examples in every shade of brown that has been on display on this thread (and many in between), caused by different ages, different environments and different applications. 

 

We seem to have a modern demand for all our rolling stock to be absolutely identically liveried, when the real thing never was. 

 

Yes, and I for one think it's a perfectly reasonable discussion to be having on a model railway forum. I accept your point that the effects of dirt, weathering, and chemical aging would affect the colour on a vehicle that had been in service for some time but I doubt very much that a purple brown would become chocolate brown, either dark or milk, or any sort of approximation to bauxite. I also doubt that there was that much variation in the ex-works colour - yes paint was mixed by hand but to a set specification. I would imagine that any paint shop hand who got too sloppy with the proportions would have been on the carpet soon enough.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a mass-produced model to be made in a good match to the ex-works colour, for which there is good documentary evidence. Hornby made a mistake with the first batch which they have gone some way to correcting with this more recent batch, it would seem. 

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

This is getting into "How many Angles can dance on the head of a pin" territory here. 

 

 

Non Angli sed Angeli.

[truffy]

37 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

 

Non Angli sed Angeli.

Oh, very well played, sir!

[barrymx5]

As far as I am concerned we have done this one to (after) death. I think angeli prove(s) my point(!) 

 

I was unwilling to buy a milk chocolate coloured LSWR brakevan but am happy with the revised plain chocolate colour. Others may of course make a different decision. 

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, barrymx5 said:

I was unwilling to buy a milk chocolate coloured LSWR brakevan but am happy with the revised plain chocolate colour. 

In other words, the new version nestles comfortably in your collection.

[NHY 581]

A collection within which are a Galaxy of stars.......

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, JohnR said:

Are we STILL arguing over the exact shade of brown on something that was last seen 100 years ago? When paint was mixed by hand and different shades were the norm? And before the invention of modern colour photography under standard lighting conditions?

 

This is getting into "How many Angles can dance on the head of a pin" territory here. 

 

I reckon, if you were able to line up next to each other every Brake Van on the LSWR in 1922, you would have seen examples in every shade of brown that has been on display on this thread (and many in between), caused by different ages, different environments and different applications. 

 

We seem to have a modern demand for all our rolling stock to be absolutely identically liveried, when the real thing never was. 

 

Yes. Because we know what colour it was and if you have the ingredients to hand you can make it yourself.

 

The urban myth of mixing paint to any old recipe is just that. It's total nonsense. If painters were painting things the wrong colour then they would be sacked on the spot.

 

It's also probably a bit offensive to those painters who did strive to get things right.

 

 

Jason

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. Because we know what colour it was and if you have the ingredients to hand you can make it yourself.

 

The urban myth of mixing paint to any old recipe is just that. It's total nonsense. If painters were painting things the wrong colour then they would be sacked on the spot.

 

It's also probably a bit offensive to those painters who did strive to get things right.

 

 

Jason

 

I didnt say paint was mixed to any old recipe. I said it was mixed by hand. And that will inevitably result in variation, no matter how hard they strive to get things  right. Even the ambient temperature when the paint was applied will affect the appearance of the final colour!

 

We dont know what colour it was. We have a pretty good idea, but short of getting into the Tardis with a lot of spectrographic equipment and a Eastleigh works pass, we dont know. And thats before we get into how exposure to sunlight (UV) will impact the appearance, let alone how the lighting itself shows the colour. 

 

 

 

 

[barrymx5]

4 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

A collection within which are a Galaxy of stars.......

Another Smartie pants!

[spikey]

8 hours ago, spikey said:

Can somebody please tell me exactly what Hornby has done with the glazing on these vans?  Depending on which images I look at, it's either non-existent, clear, or what looks to be "reeded".  I need to buy one online, and I'd like to be sure of the glazing before I order.

 

Sorry to interrupt the flow, but can anyone please suggest where I might find the answer to my query?

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. Because we know what colour it was and if you have the ingredients to hand you can make it yourself.

 

The urban myth of mixing paint to any old recipe is just that. It's total nonsense. If painters were painting things the wrong colour then they would be sacked on the spot.

 

It's also probably a bit offensive to those painters who did strive to get things right.

 

 

Jason

Even in 1958 BR paint mixing instructions give ranges of individual components to use, so even if followed they would come out from different works appearing to be different. Paint mixing was an art, not a science. 

 

Paul

[Robin Brasher]

59 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Sorry to interrupt the flow, but can anyone please suggest where I might find the answer to my query?

The model has got glazing on the sides and ends.  The glazing on the ends is on four windows and they have each got two vertical bars in Venetian red. I think the vertical bars are plastic and are very nicely made.

[spikey]

Robin, thank you very much indeed for that.

[NHY 581]

From a distance the glazing bars look like a Twix. 

[spikey]

1 minute ago, NHY 581 said:

From a distance the glazing bars look like a Twix. 

 

Gosh. 

I have no idea what you mean, but I do like that sentence. 

It almost has something of the haiku about it.

[Robin Brasher]

Spikey's question about the glazing has led me to have a close look at the veranda of the new brake van and it does look like a work of art with the fine glazing bars,  the tool chests which can be used as seats and the separate white handrails. The enclosed picture shows the glazing bars with a glimpse of the handrails.

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, JohnR said:

I didnt say paint was mixed to any old recipe. I said it was mixed by hand. And that will inevitably result in variation, no matter how hard they strive to get things  right. Even the ambient temperature when the paint was applied will affect the appearance of the final colour!

 

We dont know what colour it was. We have a pretty good idea, but short of getting into the Tardis with a lot of spectrographic equipment and a Eastleigh works pass, we dont know. And thats before we get into how exposure to sunlight (UV) will impact the appearance, let alone how the lighting itself shows the colour.

 

17 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Even in 1958 BR paint mixing instructions give ranges of individual components to use, so even if followed they would come out from different works appearing to be different. Paint mixing was an art, not a science. 

 

Variation indeed but not, I submit, to the degree exhibited by the Hornby models.

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

 

Looks like those bars are designed to keep the guard firmly in his box rather than to support the glazing !

[Bernard Lamb]

On 20/10/2020 at 14:32, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. Because we know what colour it was and if you have the ingredients to hand you can make it yourself.

 

The urban myth of mixing paint to any old recipe is just that. It's total nonsense. If painters were painting things the wrong colour then they would be sacked on the spot.

 

It's also probably a bit offensive to those painters who did strive to get things right.

 

 

Jason

OK but only up to a point. All the commercial standards that I have ever seen have a tolerance. Many people also see colours in a different way. they even see different colours in different ways. I knew one chap who could detect the slightest variation in a blue shade but was quite happy with reds that I thought were widely different. Simple answer is that no one can be absolutely correct. 

The ultimate skill that I have come across regarding colour matching was a beater man in a paper factory. getting wet pulp the correct colour is a real talent. I could judge a colour as to what it should be rather than what I actually saw, both in paint and in photographic printing, but I could never be a beater man.

Bernard

[barrymx5]

On 17/10/2020 at 00:33, barrymx5 said:

Just for completeness it is worth recording that Hornby have at last started producing SR and LSWR brakevans in the darker, probably correct,  shade of brown. The revised models bear the B suffix in their model number. 
 

I am almost sorry I reopened the discussion !

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, barrymx5 said:

I am almost sorry I reopened the discussion !

 

Better out than in.

[Georgeconna]

Hi Folks,

 

I have some trouble with this little beauty, The Grey R6915

 

Have been running mine now for a short time it started to Derail and under exmination I noticed the Van has become not so free running anymore with one wheelset very stubborn to move as it should and hence this managed to derail the van over a 3 way point. I did put a dab of oil onto the axle points but waste of time and cleaned up the reset for the axle points. the brake shoes are all away from the wheels and no underside gubbins is touching the wheels either. Very strange indeed.

 

interest to see if anyone has similar problem?