Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

[Oldddudders]

I am always impressed by modellers who seek to reproduce the exact locos or stock by number, that plied their choice of prototype, as you are seeking to do. But I feel even more realism is imported by using a working timetable, so the videos are good from that point of view. Once you have to identify, for example, just where the loco for the 07.28 came from, you are beginning to understand the complexity of the real railway, and I regard that as satisfying in its own right. 

 

This layout has a lot to commend it. 

[danstercivicman]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I am always impressed by modellers who seek to reproduce the exact locos or stock by number, that plied their choice of prototype, as you are seeking to do. But I feel even more realism is imported by using a working timetable, so the videos are good from that point of view. Once you have to identify, for example, just where the loco for the 07.28 came from, you are beginning to understand the complexity of the real railway, and I regard that as satisfying in its own right. 

 

This layout has a lot to commend it. 

 

Thank you

 

Yes it’s fascinating.  You realise the complexity and interwoven nature of it all...

 

I have also realised that to run a days timetable (and excluding some of the off scene workings from the Town) takes around 12-16 locos!  That’s reduced slightly by the Class 126 DMUs  it still a vast array of motive power.  

 

The only confirmed diagram working I have found is that the loco that brought the N.Irishman in during the early hrs worked a round trip to Glasgow and back before taking the night UP sleeper back to Carlisle.  As another loco was also on the opposite working that’s at least two 6MT/6P or double headed/piloted 5MT’s per day..

 

The other fascinating thing is looking at the loco allocations- Kingmoor retained some Jubilees for awhile but others went to other sheds.   Corkerhill must also have supplied locos and when it snowed or the weather was bad the DMU’s broke down... 

 

The hardest workings to understand is the through coaches to Newcastle and the Newcastle workings which are impossible to find in the timetables and could have gone by Carlisle or Glasgow... my mind is now truly burnt out! 

 

I’ve sourced as many books as I can but short of MPD diagram books I’m struggling with some of the diagraming so I just think:

 

If loco A took the UP fitted freight it will take at least 2hrs to reach Carlisle so the DOWN freight arriving later must be a different loco - Loco B and that will then require a trip to Stranraer Shed to be coaled and watered...

 

 

[danstercivicman]

5 hours ago, turbos said:

The correct terms are DMBS(L) and DMS(I), L for leading and I for intermediate. There was also a DMBS(I) in the 79xxx series, some of which were allocated to Ayr at various times. I look forward to your build of a Class 126. I too have one on my to do list and have been collecting the various bits required.
 

Brian.

 

Cheers,  Mine will be the 51 series.  I’m trying to get a kit from Silver Fox as my sons pinched the Trix coaches for his brio! 

 

[pH]

36 minutes ago, danstercivicman said:

The other fascinating thing is looking at the loco allocations- Kingmoor retained some Jubilees for awhile but others went to other sheds.   Corkerhill must also have supplied locos and when it snowed or the weather was bad the DMU’s broke down... 

 

The hardest workings to understand is the through coaches to Newcastle and the Newcastle workings which are impossible to find in the timetables and could have gone by Carlisle or Glasgow... my mind is now truly burnt out! 

Kingmoor had Jubilees until just before the Port Road closed. The last 3 were 45588/629/742 which were withdrawn at the beginning of May 1965, 6 weeks before the Port Road was closed. Corkerhill’s 11 Jubilees were all officially withdrawn at the end of December 1962. Some had been stored out of use for a while before that, but others had been in use over the previous summer and would possibly have worked extras to Stranraer. (I think I may have seen a picture of such a working. I’ll look.)

 

I think the Newcastle through coaches show up in the timetable in this previous post, going via Carlisle.

 

 

[danstercivicman]

Last loco renumbered for today:

 

44726

 

I’ll need to sort that 2 out! 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

37 minutes ago, pH said:

Kingmoor had Jubilees until just before the Port Road closed. The last 3 were 45588/629/742 which were withdrawn at the beginning of May 1965, 6 weeks before the Port Road was closed. Corkerhill’s 11 Jubilees were all officially withdrawn at the end of December 1962. Some had been stored out of use for a while before that, but others had been in use over the previous summer and would possibly have worked extras to Stranraer. (I think I may have seen a picture of such a working. I’ll look.)

 

I think the Newcastle through coaches show up in the timetable in this previous post, going via Carlisle.

 

 

 

Ah ok, maybe I’ve misunderstood- would that mean a 21:30 departure for Carlisle TC to Newcastle but terminating at Carlisle then the N.Irishman at 22:00 again with TC to Newcastle arriving at Carlisle switching loco to a 7MT or Class 45 then running to Euston?  

[Legend]

On 28/10/2020 at 16:24, danstercivicman said:

I have decided to bite the big bullet and soon will begin the construction of a Class 126 (59 series) three car set...

 

I’ll be following the work done by Signaller69 and Brian Kirby.

 

I’ll be using Trix coaches on Replica Railways 64ft underframes..

 

I’m still unsure of the power unit but I’m thinking the Replica setup may be the best although I have the Class 110 bogies I can use...

 

Best

 

Dan 

One of my favourite units . Inspired by Signaller 69 I’ve also started on a 126 using his Trix cut and shut method . I’m using a Lima 117 as chassis . Would be interested to see how you progress .  I had a little set back as the Trix coaches I sourced had been well glued to their chassis  so I more or less had to prize them away which involved a lot of cutting .
 

The DMSL sides are now complete , though and awaiting plaster filling  and I’ve cut down the  inside structure of the non motorised 117 .  Once I’ve done the filling and sanding the next task will be to cut the cab windows in the ends .  This is the first time I’ve really done anything like this , so each step is a learning experience . I reckoned it would be the only way to get a 126 though and Signaller 69s thread looked like it could be achievable . I must admit now I’ve started I’m not so sure!  However gradual progress is being made . I think I now have enough Trix coaches to do a second set if I ever finish the first one .  I’m reckoning I’ll have learned from the mistakes on the first . It’s a good project though and if I end up with something that looks like a 126 and runs well (hence the use of a 117 chassis without modification)  I’ll be happy . 
 

What Silver Fox kit are you looking for ? Do they do a 126? Or are you thinking about a 120? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Legend

[danstercivicman]

35 minutes ago, Legend said:

One of my favourite units . Inspired by Signaller 69 I’ve also started on a 126 using his Trix cut and shut method . I’m using a Lima 117 as chassis . Would be interested to see how you progress .  I had a little set back as the Trix coaches I sourced had been well glued to their chassis  so I more or less had to prize them away which involved a lot of cutting .
 

The DMSL sides are now complete , though and awaiting plaster filling  and I’ve cut down the  inside structure of the non motorised 117 .  Once I’ve done the filling and sanding the next task will be to cut the cab windows in the ends .  This is the first time I’ve really done anything like this , so each step is a learning experience . I reckoned it would be the only way to get a 126 though and Signaller 69s thread looked like it could be achievable . I must admit now I’ve started I’m not so sure!  However gradual progress is being made . I think I now have enough Trix coaches to do a second set if I ever finish the first one .  I’m reckoning I’ll have learned from the mistakes on the first . It’s a good project though and if I end up with something that looks like a 126 and runs well (hence the use of a 117 chassis without modification)  I’ll be happy . 
 

What Silver Fox kit are you looking for ? Do they do a 126? Or are you thinking about a 120? 

 

I’m trying to get the Class 126 kit.  The Class 126 51 series was quite specific.  

 

Im planning to to use Replica Railway coaches, powered chassis, 64ft under-frames, coach bodies and  cut the sides where the windows are out with a Dremel thing (Christmas pressie) and then complete the kit. 

 

I will I’ll use the Class 110 bogies and add top mounts to them to fit to the replica underframes for the non powered cars.  The DPC has a clever mount to allow fitting bogie sides. 

 

If I can’t source the kit I’ll be going down the Trix route but... I can’t cut well and I think it will be harder to do. 

 

Well done one on your build  

 

Thank you for your assistance in the thread. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by danstercivicman

[Clagmeister]

I like a bit of real timetable running.  Do you throw in uncertainty of any sort?  On Caolisport many moons ago i'd roll a 20 sided dice every 4 hours with an array of operational issues and problems to give it a real operational feel.

 

Is it in real time?

[danstercivicman]

16 minutes ago, Clagmeister said:

I like a bit of real timetable running.  Do you throw in uncertainty of any sort?  On Caolisport many moons ago i'd roll a 20 sided dice every 4 hours with an array of operational issues and problems to give it a real operational feel.

 

Is it in real time?

 

Hello,

 

I do throw in ‘specials’ and reliefs.

 

I also add a ‘Port Patrick’ connection that’s additional and extra freight workings!

 

I run Steam locos instead of failed DMU’s and add pilot locos to dome trains. 

 

Its not to real time.  Work, family and cycling mean sometimes the full timetable can take a week or more to run! 

 

Best

 

Dan 

Edited November 2, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

9 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

Ah ok, maybe I’ve misunderstood- would that mean a 21:30 departure for Carlisle TC to Newcastle but terminating at Carlisle then the N.Irishman at 22:00 again with TC to Newcastle arriving at Carlisle switching loco to a 7MT or Class 45 then running to Euston?  

 

I figured it out from the main timetables- the 21:30 is summer Fridays only service.  Must be a relief to the main N.Irishman.  The full timetable shows a Carlisle arriviste followed by a later Glasgow arrival so I expect it was split at Carlisle? 

Edited November 3, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

Just now, danstercivicman said:

 

I figured it out from the main timetables- the 21:30 is summer Fridays only service.  Must be a relief t the main N.Irishman.  The full timetable shows a Carlisle arriviste followed by a later Glasgow arrival so I expect it was split at Carlisle? 

 

Pre World War Two there was a TPO from Newcastle providing a East Coast- Larne Mail Link.  Can anyone suggest a suitable coach?  That could be a good addition! 

[Legend]

9 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

I’m trying to get the Class 126 kit.  The Class 126 51 series was quite specific.  

 

Im planning to to use Replica Railway coaches, powered chassis, 64ft under-frames, coach bodies and  cut the sides where the windows are out with a Dremel thing (Christmas pressie) and then complete the kit. 

 

I will I’ll use the Class 110 bogies and add top mounts to them to fit to the replica underframes for the non powered cars.  The DPC has a clever mount to allow fitting bogie sides. 

 

If I can’t source the kit I’ll be going down the Trix route but... I can’t cut well and I think it will be harder to do. 

 

Well done one on your build  

 

Thank you for your assistance in the thread. 

Unless  I’ve missed it , I don’t think they do a 126 kit .  They do a 120 and a 124 I think, but if using these there’s still going to be a bit of cutting involved . Very interested to see how you do it . This is a great thread and I wish you well with your build 

[danstercivicman]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Unless  I’ve missed it , I don’t think they do a 126 kit .  They do a 120 and a 124 I think, but if using these there’s still going to be a bit of cutting involved . Very interested to see how you do it . This is a great thread and I wish you well with your build 

 

They did/do but it’s not in stock.  

 

I’ve emailed and just awaiting the next news/step but I think if you email then they will advise  

 

The 120 kit is quite different.

 

Cheers,

 

dan 

[Jamie]

11 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

Ah ok, maybe I’ve misunderstood- would that mean a 21:30 departure for Carlisle TC to Newcastle but terminating at Carlisle then the N.Irishman at 22:00 again with TC to Newcastle arriving at Carlisle switching loco to a 7MT or Class 45 then running to Euston?  

 

Dan, I could be wrong but I read it as the N.Irishman being through coaches for London, whereas the other columns in the timetable are showing connections with departure times from London and Glasgow to meet each train at Dumfries.  

Could be wrong though.

 

[danstercivicman]

17 minutes ago, Jamie said:

 

Dan, I could be wrong but I read it as the N.Irishman being through coaches for London, whereas the other columns in the timetable are showing connections with departure times from London and Glasgow to meet each train at Dumfries.  

Could be wrong though.

 

 

Mhmm.. it appears to be a titled train in the books so I think straight through to London.  It does appear to be the main UP and DOWN train whereas the other services I think terminated at Dumfries.  I think it must have had TC for Newcastle which came off at Carlisle and probably a buffet added?

 

Can anyone with knowledge of the services help?

 

Pictures of it running are scarce- being a night train it ran during the early hours.

 

I’ve also realised that it’s around 3hrs to Carlisle not two as earlier indicated.  

[danstercivicman]

Think I’ve found the answer...

 

https://www.europebyrail.eu/anglo-scottish-night-trains-sixty-years-ago/

[danstercivicman]

The rest of the answer may reside here:

 

http://www.carlisle-citadel.co.uk/nighttt.htm

Edited November 3, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

So those sites are very helpful...

 

The N.Irishman ran to and from Euston and Stranraer.  One UP leaving at 22:00.  This was the train from the sailing from Larne which docked at 20:55 hrs.  

 

On Friday during the summer it looks like a relief ran.  The Stranraer-Larne Boat Train? 

 

Back to N.Irishman:  

 

One DOWN leaving Euston at: 19:10 the night before.  Arrival times 04:00 (sat) or 05:28 (normally) passengers could stay in there sleeping berths until 06:25.  The Ferry to Larne left at 07:00 hrs. 

 

Interestingly the second site fills in the gaps.  Expresses from Newcastle connected with the DOWN and UP services.

 

Neither site references a Buffet...

 

From my reading I can see that the locos changed at Carlisle with the Kingmoor engines coming off.  

 

From my other reading Stanier 5MT’s and B1’s ran from Carlisle to Newcastle (mainly the former I think).  

 

These sites have really helped understand the workings. 

 

So I can surmise that with the loco that brought the DOWN N.Irishman working a return trip to Glasgow and back before taking the UP service that’s one loco fully accounted for! 

 

The locos I will use for this diagram are:

 

72008 Clan 6MT

45687 Neptune 

45691 Orion 

 

Then 44726 with 73079 

 

That will hopefully bring some variety!  

 

I can therefore continue this diagram for a while .. or until 1965 in model form!

 

However if it’s a Friday the double headed 5MT’s will be used on the Stranraer-Larne Boat Train...

 

Now that may be an unbalanced working so that means ECS..

 

The 12:17 Hrs to Newcastle also appears unbalanced.  

 

The Bulk of the Glasgow services via Girvan and Ayr would have been Class 126 DMU’s in my chosen period.  

 

Further research shows that six or even nine car sets ran to Ayr with six or three car sets running to Stranraer.

 

There is an option to use locos for some of these OR eventually build lots of Class 126’s!!!! 

 

The other services are the Port Road services to Dumfries via Castle Douglas/Newton Stewart.  The rest of my 5MT XP fleet will be used on these.

 

The books are really useful here- two or three coaches a couple of vans or CCT and double headed Stanier 5MT’s!  They did this apparently to balance workings.

 

To add add variety I can run 2P’s and 4P Compounds. 

 

I’ve also found that Class 122 DMU’s ran in Scotland!!!

 

Therefore that would be a better option for my imaginary ‘Port Patrick’ local!  Although it’s provably overkill for what would have been a trip to Stranraer Junction stopping by the signal box the driver walking through the DMU to the other end then running to Stranraer Town and then terminating at Port Patrick...

 

Seems like a bad idea and I think the Western Bus Parked by the Station would have beers a better alternative! 

 

Please add any corrections/thoughts. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by danstercivicman
More historical surmising

[danstercivicman]

The weather is awful...

 

44957  Renumbered to a local loco.  It features a few times in the books! 

 

Whilst on my sons layout 

 

Henry has had a bump! 

 

Whilst Thomas and Toby double head a bizarre freight working..

Edited November 3, 2020 by danstercivicman

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, danstercivicman said:

The weather is awful...

 

44957  Renumbered to a local loco.  It features a few times in the books! 

 

Whilst on my sons layout 

 

Henry has had a bump! 

 

Whilst Thomas and Toby double head a bizarre freight working..

Show us the Trix coaches!

[danstercivicman]

23 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Show us the Trix coaches!

 

Here are the sides... if I go down this route I will need one coach more... if anyone has one going for not a lot please PM...

[danstercivicman]

The Trix coaches were retrieved from the brio set this morning by the engineering depot! 

[Wheatley]

The Newcastle trains are a bit of a nightmare once you get into the various onlys/excepteds. In short (very short, because I never did get completely to the bottom of it) you can have all or any of the following depending on the day/time of year:

 

• A four coach Carlisle - Stranraer working, usually with a Kingmoor Black 5 and LMS stock. Apparently extended to Newcastle in the summer with LMS and LNER stock used turnabout, but I've yet to find evidence of a 4 coach LNER set or more than 4 of LMS stock, apart from obvious strengtheners where non-corridors have been added to the normal 2-3 coach Dumfries-Stranraer set. 
• Up to 8 or more LNER coaches worked through from Newcastle, both overnight and during the day, by a Black 5, Jubilee or Clan. The composition appears to be day coaches regardless of the train time, mostly TKs with the odd CK. I have some carriage working notes somewhere, I'll dig them out. 
• There is at least one relief to the overnight Newcastle train in one of the 1960s timetables, goodness knows that that was made up of or how often it actually ran. 

 

TPOs - Peter Johnson ("The British Travelling Post Office", Ian Allan, 1985) says this:

 

"Galloway Sorting Tender - commenced operating between Dumfries and Stranraer 1st May 1871. Extended to Carlisle 1st July 1885. Designated a TPO on 14th July 1930. Ceased 1940."

 

However, the Summer 1959 timetable (reproduced in "Branches and Byways") shows a 4.15am departure from Dumfries described at 'POSTAL - LIMITED LOAD' and arriving in Stranraer Harbour at 6.22 am. That was enough excuse for me to buy a Bachmann TPO but in practice I suspect it was a BG full of mail bags attached to a couple of passenger coaches. No photographic evidence unfortunately. 

 

 

[danstercivicman]

13 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

The Newcastle trains are a bit of a nightmare once you get into the various onlys/excepteds. In short (very short, because I never did get completely to the bottom of it) you can have all or any of the following depending on the day/time of year:

 

• A four coach Carlisle - Stranraer working, usually with a Kingmoor Black 5 and LMS stock. Apparently extended to Newcastle in the summer with LMS and LNER stock used turnabout, but I've yet to find evidence of a 4 coach LNER set or more than 4 of LMS stock, apart from obvious strengtheners where non-corridors have been added to the normal 2-3 coach Dumfries-Stranraer set. 
• Up to 8 or more LNER coaches worked through from Newcastle, both overnight and during the day, by a Black 5, Jubilee or Clan. The composition appears to be day coaches regardless of the train time, mostly TKs with the odd CK. I have some carriage working notes somewhere, I'll dig them out. 
• There is at least one relief to the overnight Newcastle train in one of the 1960s timetables, goodness knows that that was made up of or how often it actually ran. 

 

TPOs - Peter Johnson ("The British Travelling Post Office", Ian Allan, 1985) says this:

 

"Galloway Sorting Tender - commenced operating between Dumfries and Stranraer 1st May 1871. Extended to Carlisle 1st July 1885. Designated a TPO on 14th July 1930. Ceased 1940."

 

However, the Summer 1959 timetable (reproduced in "Branches and Byways") shows a 4.15am departure from Dumfries described at 'POSTAL - LIMITED LOAD' and arriving in Stranraer Harbour at 6.22 am. That was enough excuse for me to buy a Bachmann TPO but in practice I suspect it was a BG full of mail bags attached to a couple of passenger coaches. No photographic evidence unfortunately. 

 

 

 

Thank you.  It confirms the mix of stock I’ve got for this route.

 

Which Bachmann TPO did you get?  I’m struggling to find an early one?

 

Hornby did the LMS one but not in BR markings R.4155?

 

There were a lot of BG’s used on the services.  Most passenger trains appear to have run with a couple of vans