Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

[Wheatley]

It was the first issue, sorry ! It got renumbered to one of the Sc allocation, it shares the duty (or will if I ever get NS working!) with a kit built Highland Railway one which seems to have got lost a bit. 

 

Again, somewhere I've got some workings for the Down Special (I think) TPO showing which vans were dropped where en route, pretty sure one was dropped at Carlisle for Stranraer. If I find it ...

[danstercivicman]

14 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

It was the first issue, sorry ! It got renumbered to one of the Sc allocation, it shares the duty (or will if I ever get NS working!) with a kit built Highland Railway one which seems to have got lost a bit. 

 

Again, somewhere I've got some workings for the Down Special (I think) TPO showing which vans were dropped where en route, pretty sure one was dropped at Carlisle for Stranraer. If I find it ...

 

Like this:

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35062/Bachmann-39-421b-oo-gauge-br-mk1-pos-post-office-sorting-van-post-office-red-with-nets-

 

Sounds like you have some good resources somewhere   

[turbos]

A lot of info on the introduction of the Class 126 on Stranraer services can be found here https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-126/operations .

 

Brian.

[danstercivicman]

31 minutes ago, turbos said:

A lot of info on the introduction of the Class 126 on Stranraer services can be found here https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-126/operations .

 

Brian.

 

Yup I spent most of last week on holiday reading that  

[Wheatley]

3 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

Like this:

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35062/Bachmann-39-421b-oo-gauge-br-mk1-pos-post-office-sorting-van-post-office-red-with-nets-

 

Sounds like you have some good resources somewhere   

 

Similar. Big windows but no nets or tracductors (I need to add the latter from one of the spare etches in the HR kit !). 

 

The best collections of published timetables I've found are in the two staples - "Branches & Byways - SW Scotland" by Robotham, and to a lesser degree "The Port Road" by Swan. Apart from photos most of the rest is odd snippets picked up from magazine articles and filed away over the years. There is a working timetable for Newton Stewart but I confess I just lumped together all the best bits from the various BR timetables regardless of whether they were summer, winter, SO, SX or whatever ! The real Whithorn branch timetable, for example, gets quite dull after 1959. 

[pH]

14 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

So I can surmise that with the loco that brought the DOWN N.Irishman working a return trip to Glasgow and back before taking the UP service that’s one loco fully accounted for! 

 

The locos I will use for this diagram are:

 

72008 Clan 6MT

45687 Neptune 

45691 Orion 

 

Then 44726 with 73079 

Just a comment - 45687 and 73079 were Corkerhill engines. They would be far more likely to have worked to Stranraer by way of Ayr, rather than from Carlisle through Dumfries. Having said that, I think that earlier in this topic someone mentioned a Corkerhill diagram where the engine worked a train from Dumfries to Stranraer, so either of these could be at least a possibility on the Northern Irishman.

[danstercivicman]

6 hours ago, pH said:

Just a comment - 45687 and 73079 were Corkerhill engines. They would be far more likely to have worked to Stranraer by way of Ayr, rather than from Carlisle through Dumfries. Having said that, I think that earlier in this topic someone mentioned a Corkerhill diagram where the engine worked a train from Dumfries to Stranraer, so either of these could be at least a possibility on the Northern Irishman.

 

I’ve used this for some of the numbers:

 

https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/stranraer-newton-stewart-1939-1964.html?m=1

 

Also checking:

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/carlisle-kingmoor-1963-1965.html?m=1

 

It does show Corkerhill locos at Kingmoor...

 

Hopefully it’ll be ok!

Edited November 4, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

This site has a picture of a Corkerhill loco and a Kingmoor on a double header from Newcastle to Stranraer!

 

https://scottishrtt.livejournal.com/3522.html

 

Jubilees also ended up further afield!! 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/gloucestershirerailwaymemories/home/locomotive-sightings/jubilee

 

Confusing!

 

best

 

dan

Edited November 4, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

6 hours ago, pH said:

Just a comment - 45687 and 73079 were Corkerhill engines. They would be far more likely to have worked to Stranraer by way of Ayr, rather than from Carlisle through Dumfries. Having said that, I think that earlier in this topic someone mentioned a Corkerhill diagram where the engine worked a train from Dumfries to Stranraer, so either of these could be at least a possibility on the Northern Irishman.

 

Maybe I should take 72005 off parcel duties put that as XP with 72008?

 

That would mean displacing a Jubilee... some of the problem is caused by 45588 being a 5 bolt boiler and lots of the other Kingmoor Jubilees being fowler tendered...

[danstercivicman]

More research...

 

Interestingly one book shows:

 

72008 Clan Mackintosh with a 09:90 From Newcastle-Stranraer at Castle Douglas showing a head code IS38

 

If that is running to Stranraer that would then make sense that it’s stock worked back on the 12:17? 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by danstercivicman

[Wheatley]

Beware of captions in books and magazines, unless you know who wrote them. There are some Port Road photos in a Steam Days article from a couple of years ago - either one of the locos has been misidentified or 45480 had a boiler swap one afternoon at Dumfries. Explanations of workings can be even more fanciful, there is a caption in one of the Booklaw volumes on SW Scotland showing some end door vans 'going for trip round the G&SWR triangle to turn them' - they aren't, they're going to Metalbox at Carlisle from the Carnation Milk plant in Dumfries. 

 

For modelling purposes I generally rely on photos where I can read the number for myself, although I confess that my 73100 is based on a caption !

[danstercivicman]

11 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Beware of captions in books and magazines, unless you know who wrote them. There are some Port Road photos in a Steam Days article from a couple of years ago - either one of the locos has been misidentified or 45480 had a boiler swap one afternoon at Dumfries. Explanations of workings can be even more fanciful, there is a caption in one of the Booklaw volumes on SW Scotland showing some end door vans 'going for trip round the G&SWR triangle to turn them' - they aren't, they're going to Metalbox at Carlisle from the Carnation Milk plant in Dumfries. 

 

For modelling purposes I generally rely on photos where I can read the number for myself, although I confess that my 73100 is based on a caption !

 

Yes, it can be a nightmare.  Personally I find understanding the timetables is harder!  

 

To add add to the conundrum:

 

 https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/65/739/

 

Shows a STD 5MT on a Newcastle- Stranraer working marked SO- Saturdays only...

Edited November 4, 2020 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

I’ve started a small scenic addition to the Harbour.  I’ll be modelling one small part of the link down approach...

 

This is important as I think there was a toilet block here.  A wall and an office...

 

With the Change in rules the next scenic addition will remain paused until 2021..

[Wheatley]

That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

 

So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines if a person with a sufficiently large hat authorised it, so my guess (and it is  only a guess) would be that the train is diverted off the PP&W by engineering work.  

 

I'm assuming for the purposes of this guess that the second coach is in crimson and cream, not blue/grey !

[danstercivicman]

15 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

 

So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines if a person with a sufficiently large hat authorised it, so my guess (and it is  only a guess) would be that the train is diverted off the PP&W by engineering work.  

 

I'm assuming for the purposes of this guess that the second coach is in crimson and cream, not blue/grey !

 

I haven’t got enough knowledge to comment on the route but yes I certainly think it’s crimson/cream.  It opens up some possibilities

 

Basically loco wise I’m trying to select locos from these sheds:

 

Carlisle Kingmoor

Corkerhill

Stranraer

Dumfries

Ayr

 

I’ve converted 72005 back to XP...

[danstercivicman]

27 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

 

So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines if a person with a sufficiently large hat authorised it, so my guess (and it is  only a guess) would be that the train is diverted off the PP&W by engineering work.  

 

I'm assuming for the purposes of this guess that the second coach is in crimson and cream, not blue/grey !

 

Of course the other problem with the picture is that it appears to be a Capriotti valve geared loco...

 

As no r-t-r version exist I’m somewhat stuck.

 

73100 (Bachmann 73158) is a possibility or 73009 (Bachmann 73014 redone)...

[Jamie]

There's another pic on Railscot of the same train at roughly the same position headed by a GSYP Class 27 and similar Standard 5 - so that dates it quite well as, what post yellow panels so 1962 approx and pre singling of the Hawkhill curve quoted as 1965.

 

Additionally, many references to the closure of the Port Road describe Anglo-Scottish boat trains being diverted via Mauchline. Which implies Ayr Hawkhill Jct - Annbank - Mauchline and regular workings over that curve.  I can't immediately recall seeing a picture of such a working actually on the Ayr-Mauchline line, but there may be one in a Derek Cross book.

 

All very interesting.  I'm finding the discussion on Jubilees and Boat trains very useful - I get these things straight in my head then gradually it all fades into confusion again soon after!

 

There's a few Std 5s pictured on Glasgow trains, don't think too many are Caprottis, fewer photos on the PP&W line.  The Stenlake/WAC Smith books would be my first port of call - I can have a look later if I get a chance.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Jamie
baloney

[danstercivicman]

46 minutes ago, Jamie said:

There's another pic on Railscot of the same train at roughly the same position headed by a GSYP Class 27 and similar Standard 5 - so that dates it quite well as, what post yellow panels so 1962 approx and pre singling of the Hawkhill curve quoted as 1965.

 

Additionally, most references to the closure of the Port Road describe Anglo-Scottish boat trains being diverted via Mauchline. Which implies Ayr Hawkhill Jct - Annbank - Mauchline and regular workings over that curve.  I can't immediately recall seeing a picture of such a working actually on the Ayr-Mauchline line, but there may be one in a Derek Cross book.  

 

All very interesting.  I'm finding the discussion on Jubilees and Boat trains very useful - I get these things straight in my head then gradually it all fades into confusion again soon after!

 

There's a few Std 5s pictured on Glasgow trains, don't think too many are Caprottis, fewer photos on the PP&W line.  The Stenlake/WAC Smith books would be my first port of call - I can have a look later if I get a chance.

 

Yes please- the relevant one is prob ‘Ayrshire’s Last Days of Steam’ 

[danstercivicman]

I’ve been busy relabelling the loco rostering system. 

 

I wasn’t happy with the lairage.  My daughter didn’t like the building which she kept knocking off.  I’m therefore going to model 4 pens for the cattle instead.  The hay bales are for indication purposes. 

[Jamie]

OK, so most pics turned out to be St Enoch-Ayr/Girvan workings but on shed at Stranraer I found pics of 73077/079/102.

Caprotti 73145 seems to have been south of Girvan a few times towards the end of its days.

73100 possibly the only one I've seen recorded on the PP&W, coupled inside a black 5 on Stranraer Town to Dumfries which I think was in one of the books on your 'bedspread'

 

and possibly my favourite for your scenario

73009 allegedly standing in for a DMU in the bitter cold of February 1963 at Barrhill - that's in 'On G&SW Lines'.  There's a couple of howlers in that book, so I don't know what to trust - that particular caption is plausible though.

 

 

Looked at troop trains yet?  Those could keep your Clans busy and throw a curve-ball into your operating sessions.

[Wheatley]

11 hours ago, Jamie said:

 

73100 possibly the only one I've seen recorded on the PP&W, coupled inside a black 5 on Stranraer Town to Dumfries which I think was in one of the books on your 'bedspread'

"LM Steam North of the Border" :-)  It isn't identified in that book but the same photo is in another book with it identified as 73100 - I could have sworn it was in Swan but on looking just now I can't see it. 

 

Edit - Found it ! "BR Steam in Scotland" by GC O'Hara, plate 163 - "44957 and 73100 make very easy work with a lightweight service from Stranraer Town to Dumfries near Gatehouse of Fleet on 26th April 1963". The late Mr O'Hara could also be a bit creative with his captions sometimes but it didn't extend to making up engine numbers as far as I know. 

 

Of course, if it was a Corkerhill Std 5 you could just paint it grot all over and not worry about the number, they don't look as though they were cleaned from the day they were delivered. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Wheatley

[pH]

20 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

Also checking:

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/carlisle-kingmoor-1963-1965.html?m=1

 

It does show Corkerhill locos at Kingmoor...

It was quite normal to find Corkerhill engines on Kingmoor. They would have come from Glasgow by way of the ex-G&SW mainline through Kilmarnock and Dumfries and would almost always have gone back the same way.

20 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

This site has a picture of a Corkerhill loco and a Kingmoor on a double header from Newcastle to Stranraer!

 

https://scottishrtt.livejournal.com/3522.html

45486 was officially transferred  to Stranraer later in the month that photograph was taken: 

http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=446003829&loco=5486
 

Since engines often went ‘on loan’ for a short time and were then transferred, and since that doesn’t really look like ‘67A’ on the shed plate, I’d say there’s a chance 45486 was already a Stranraer engine at the time of that photo.

Edited November 5, 2020 by pH

[pH]

17 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

To add add to the conundrum:

 

 https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/65/739/

 

Shows a STD 5MT on a Newcastle- Stranraer working marked SO- Saturdays only...

 

15 hours ago, Wheatley said:

That is interesting. According to the entry for Hawkhill Junction that curve was closed to passengers in 1951 and singled in 1965. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Hawkhill_Junction/

 

So assuming the caption is correct, that's a pre-1965 photo (so the Port Road is open) showing a passenger train on a goods only route. That would be permitted if necessary, passenger trains could operate over goods lines .. 

 

14 hours ago, Jamie said:

Additionally, many references to the closure of the Port Road describe Anglo-Scottish boat trains being diverted via Mauchline. Which implies Ayr Hawkhill Jct - Annbank - Mauchline and regular workings over that curve.  I can't immediately recall seeing a picture of such a working actually on the Ayr-Mauchline line, but there may be one in a Derek Cross book.

Yes, the Northern Irishman was diverted via Mauchline and Ayr after the Port Road was closed, initially with a Kingmoor Britannia as power. Presumably the Newcastle train, if it was still running, would have gone that way too. So that picture would appear to be either a diverted train pre-1965 or a scheduled train after closure.

 

And 73152 is a St. Rollox engine (it always was)!

 

 

5 hours ago, Jamie said:

Caprotti 73145 seems to have been south of Girvan a few times towards the end of its days.

According to this site:

 

http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=73145&loco=73145

 

73145 was allocated to Ayr for a very short time before being withdrawn.

[danstercivicman]

7 hours ago, Jamie said:

OK, so most pics turned out to be St Enoch-Ayr/Girvan workings but on shed at Stranraer I found pics of 73077/079/102.

Caprotti 73145 seems to have been south of Girvan a few times towards the end of its days.

73100 possibly the only one I've seen recorded on the PP&W, coupled inside a black 5 on Stranraer Town to Dumfries which I think was in one of the books on your 'bedspread'

 

and possibly my favourite for your scenario

73009 allegedly standing in for a DMU in the bitter cold of February 1963 at Barrhill - that's in 'On G&SW Lines'.  There's a couple of howlers in that book, so I don't know what to trust - that particular caption is plausible though.

 

 

Looked at troop trains yet?  Those could keep your Clans busy and throw a curve-ball into your operating sessions.

 

Yes the TA Troop trains have been considered.  I’m trying to get the main workings correct first  

[Wheatley]

Quote

So that picture would appear to be either a diverted train pre-1965 or a scheduled train after closure.

I wondered about that. But the curve was singled in 1965, admittedly month not known, and would the Gresley brake second still be round in at that date ? I believe the Scottish allocation was withdrawn in 1963, no idea when the last ER one went. 

 

I completely missed Jamie's Type 2 pic despite it being right next to the one we were discussing ! That does suggest it was a regular working, although how regular is a good question - what we don't know is how far apart the photos were taken. There was some major work being done in 1962 on the Cree Viaduct (Swan again), I doubt that was the only engineering work on the route but that at least would have required a line blockage as Swan shows some sort of tracked plant sitting on the viaduct during the 1962 works.