Jump to content

Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64


Recommended Posts

The Caledonian Princess , which I think was the one on Colms layout took over from about 65 I think . She had the CSP Lion on her funnel as for a while the Stranraer Larne route was operated by the Caledonian Steam Packet company , the subsidiary of BR operating the Clyde Services . I'm away from home at moment  and so don't have references to the ships that were on the route before that , but I think it might be Princess Margaret or Princess Louise . But in any case these are large steamers around the same size as Caledonian Princess and probably not dissimilar to the unfortunate Princess Victoria previously referred to, although not car ferries.

 

There is a book "Death on the North Channel" which documents the Princess Victoria disaster , which I think I'm correct in saying in British Maritime disasters was second only to the Titanic in loss of life .

Edited by Legend
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Legend said:

There is a book "Death on the North Channel" which documents the Princess Victoria disaster , which I think I'm correct in saying in British Maritime disasters was second only to the Titanic in loss of life .

 

Certainly not historically. As just one example, the Scilly disaster of 1707, where 4 Royal Navy ships were wrecked, cost between 1400 and 2000 lives. Even in the 20th century, there were disasters with higher losses of life - there were 193 lives lost on the Herald of Free Enterprise. And if you include warships, 379 were killed in the sinking of HMS Dasher in the Clyde in 1943 - even though this was in wartime, it was not "in sight of the enemy".

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Ships, even little ones, are big; even a Clyde Puffer, not impossible at Stranraer, is about a foot long in 4mm.  And a ferry has plenty of detail as well; lots of lifeboats!

 

Had a bit of a squiz online for Wikipedia photos for you but all seem to be of modern ferries or the ill-fated Princess Victoria (1953) as far as this route is concerned.  Princess Victoria will give you a general idea of what your ship would look like, but of course without the stern loading door that was held to be responsible for her demise.  There must be photos of suitable ferries that worked the route in the early 60s, though!

 

Your problem is that, while it is perfectly feasible to model the quay empty, which it was for a good bit of the time, the trains only turned up when the ferry was berthed, so you sort of have to include it even if only as part of your backscene.

 

Yes indeed.  A Clyde puffer would be good ot the Scaledcenes 60’s cargo boat.

 

The problem with modelling a part or the ferry is that if you model it it’s above the loft hatch so the likely hood of mis stepping into doom is high :(

 

However... They ferry backed up to the loading thing with... its rear doors open and passengers stood on the car deck so... If I add an image of the Ferry backing up onto the far backscene then I’ll have solved the problem :)  

 

Maybe if I messaged Colm he might be able to source a picture which I could print onto the wall.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Hmmm. Hattons had some bargain Hunslets a couple of months back, only cheaper one now is a used one at £84 though.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/433849/Heljan_2521_PO02_Class_05_Hunslet_shunter_D2600_in_BR_green_with_wasp_stripes_Pre_owned_Like_ne/StockDetail.aspx

 

I agree about your pricing comments. (No connection, other than being a satisfied Hunslet owner; they run superbly!).

 

Your correct I remember them being a lot cheaper.  Definately a loco to get :) 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, pH said:

 

Certainly not historically. As just one example, the Scilly disaster of 1707, where 4 Royal Navy ships were wrecked, cost between 1400 and 2000 lives. Even in the 20th century, there were disasters with higher losses of life - there were 193 lives lost on the Herald of Free Enterprise. And if you include warships, 379 were killed in the sinking of HMS Dasher in the Clyde in 1943 - even though this was in wartime, it was not "in sight of the enemy".

 

Yes, that’s one reason I was so surprised in the film to see the Ferry backing up to the pier rear door open and psssengers on the car deck to disembark.  Haven’t been in a Ferry for ages but don’t they dock now then you have to wait to go down? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, pH said:

 

Certainly not historically. As just one example, the Scilly disaster of 1707, where 4 Royal Navy ships were wrecked, cost between 1400 and 2000 lives. Even in the 20th century, there were disasters with higher losses of life - there were 193 lives lost on the Herald of Free Enterprise. And if you include warships, 379 were killed in the sinking of HMS Dasher in the Clyde in 1943 - even though this was in wartime, it was not "in sight of the enemy".

 

Probably I've misquoted it then somewhere . Maybe it was the 2nd largest British naval loss of life in peacetime .  I'm not sure how many lives were lost either, as I said I'm not at home and can't refer to the book.  I think we are coming up to the anniversary of the Herald as well . I remember it was the weekend of Model Rail Scotland . Got home on the Friday to find it on the news . Shocking.  Anyway we digress........better get back to Stranraer. Interestingly Michael Portillos Great Railway Journeys was there last night!  Brave man wearing his multicoloured jackets in Stranraer!

 

As to the ferry reversing up and people jumping off, it was a different time!   In the Portillo program last night which was P&O Larne to Cairnryan , he had to get on a bus and be driven aboard.   I use the Clyde ferries quite a lot and it always amazes me that while we used to just use a gangplank , sometimes at very steep angles to get aboard, now we have to have these special walkways , like airport gates to get aboard!

Edited by Legend
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it was quite a major accident.

 

I was quite young when the Herald sank but it’s etched on my mind from seeing it in the news then being sent back to bed by two cross patents as I’d sneaked downstairs when they were watching the news!!!

 

Ferries are not very good when the car deck gets awash.

 

Not much on the layout today.  Silver Sidelines has assisted with some timetables which I need to digest :) 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a dreadful event, made more harrowing by the amount of time that the ship was in distress; it must have been terrifying for those aboard and all were lost in the end.

 

Ro-ro ferries developed in the post war period on the back of the landing craft and other vessels developed for beach landings with opening front doors that were able to keep the sea out, and the sort of short haul 'drive on drive off' river or coastal ferries that had a central well with the navigation bridge above it.  There is something of the technology used in whaling factory ships in the mix as well.  Princess Victoria was a stern loader, and the door was the weak point that led to her sinking in vile weather conditions.

 

A vessel with a central well deck low down in the structure, which pretty much encompasses all modern sea-going ro-ros, becomes very unstable very quickly if a live load such as a large amount of sea water gets in there, roll on, roll off, roll over.  Despite this doors were often opened before the ship berthed and not shut until after she had left the berth in order to reduce turn around times, and nobody considered this to be dangerous so long as the practice was confined to sheltered harbours or estuaries. the Herald of Free Enterprise's bow doors were still open as she passed the breakwater into open sea and encountered the normal swell, which led to her capsize as soon as helm was put on and she leaned to the turn, scooping up tons of water into the vehicle deck.  Safer working practices were introduced in the wake (sorry) of this, and ferries are not now allowed to leave the berth until the doors are sealed sea tight, nor can the doors be opened until she is berthed on arrival.

 

Poor seamanship may lead to trouble as in the case of the Estonia, a Baltic Sea ro-ro lost some years ago because of her captain's insistence on maintaining full speed in a very heavy sea, which smashed the front doors in.  Captains are under some pressure to maintain timetables for obvious reason, but there comes a point at which it's better not to sail, or to slow down if you have, and this is the Captain's responsibility and decision in the final analysis.

 

Ro-ros have a pretty good safety record, but if things go wrong they tend to do so overwhelmingly quickly, unlike the hours of suffering endured by those aboard Princess Victoria.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Today just digesting the time tables after a long sleep!  

 

Looks like there are some extra services I had missed.  Meanwhile more parcels have arrived :) 

 

Thankfully the wife is at work..

 

Next month I will be obtaining more wood...right now I’m fixing a Bachmann Jubilee :) 

  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cattle would have come over on 'cattle boats', small coastal steamers that were slower and much smaller than the passenger ferries, about 100-120 feet and 20 in the beam.  Most of them were getting on a bit in the early 60s, and straight stem bows, tall spindly funnels, and overhanging 'clipper' sterns were the order of the day, as were reciprocating steam engines.  

 

The beasts travelled in wooden enclosures in the holds and on the deck; ports involved in the short sea trade from Ireland were Fishguard, Holyhead, Liverpool, and Stranraer.  I am not aware of Heysham's status in this respect, but would have thought traffic was handled there as well.

 

The advent of more modern ro-ros that could handle HGVs put an end to this trade and the beasts came on lorries on the ferries; Princess Victoria had been built to accommodate cars, not larger road vehicles. Nowadays all such freight from Ireland either goes in lorries on the ferries or in containers on other ships.

 

If Stranraer has a public library or other local archive, it or the Wigtonwshire press may have photos of use to you.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

image.jpg.6564d66914282ff6ea8de6cc3e4e949f.jpgGood Info :) 

 

I think a cattle boat would be the best idea then.  I know milk tankers used the Ferry so I had assumed a cattle truck would however like you said even the clearances for caravans look tight!  

 

Sadly Stranraer is quite far from me!  I may have to ring or trace a local historian :) Although to be fair there’s so much help here on RMWEB 

 

Meanwhile 45681 (don’t ask why she’s here) has entered the sixties...

 

I got her preowned and had to repair the front n/s valve gear.  Thankfully she runs well now :) 

 

I’ve used hob-e-lube as well 

image.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Northroader said:

There was a thread going on building the “Caledonian Princess” here:

 

 

WOW!

 

I have messaged the builder but not sure if still on RMWEB.

 

I could not accommodate such a beast- the loft ladder access would become dangerous.  

 

I could accomodate the last 20cm of the ship coming out the far backscene sort of like a diorama.  They Ferry would then be in the background either departing or backing up to the link span like this:

 

Thoughts comments welcome :)  

 

 

image.jpg

Edited by danstercivicman
Link to post
Share on other sites

Caledonian Princess fits the bill perfectly for your period, but is pretty much 4 feet long even in 3.5 mm scale, and towers over everything else.  She's a lot bigger than Princess Victoria.  I think your best bet is to model the stern in low relief 'on' the link span with the loading door open, but not much else going on; a crew member lounging about with a fag in his mouth underneath a no smoking notice and a couple of bored seagulls would set the scene off to perfection.  There is a period of relative inactivity between unloading vehicles, which was and still is done as quickly as possible after the ship is on the berth, and her being ready to load them, during which time she is doing her normal turnaround work; refuelling, laundry, restocking bars and restaurants, cleaning of cabins and public areas, fresh water replenishment, minor repairs, and anything else of the sort you can think of.  Stranraer had no customs or immigration, as Larne is within the UK, but cars still had to book in at a checkpoint; a small queue of them here waiting for the gate to open makes the point.  

 

Cattle will probably unload from a ship berthed on the other (operators) side of the jetty straight on to the lairage area, and this area would by the 60s probably be more likely empty of both ships and beasts for most of the time.  They had to be cleared from the port fairly quickly once they been walked off the ship, only held for the port's vetinary officer's examination and possibly feeding and watering depending on how long it had been before their last feed before they were in the cattle wagons and on their way.  There are regulations that cover this sort of thing; probably more paperwork than for humans but the beasts complained less and ports like this had it down to a fine art.

 

Couple of fishing boats, wooden MFV style and smaller crabber/lobster pot types, maybe a Puffer although their stomping ground was a bit further north really, and some yachts, but nowhere near as many as there'd be nowadays, and Robert is your father's brother!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Caledonian Princess fits the bill perfectly for your period, but is pretty much 4 feet long even in 3.5 mm scale, and towers over everything else.  She's a lot bigger than Princess Victoria.  I think your best bet is to model the stern in low relief 'on' the link span with the loading door open, but not much else going on; a crew member lounging about with a fag in his mouth underneath a no smoking notice and a couple of bored seagulls would set the scene off to perfection.  There is a period of relative inactivity between unloading vehicles, which was and still is done as quickly as possible after the ship is on the berth, and her being ready to load them, during which time she is doing her normal turnaround work; refuelling, laundry, restocking bars and restaurants, cleaning of cabins and public areas, fresh water replenishment, minor repairs, and anything else of the sort you can think of.  Stranraer had no customs or immigration, as Larne is within the UK, but cars still had to book in at a checkpoint; a small queue of them here waiting for the gate to open makes the point.  

 

Cattle will probably unload from a ship berthed on the other (operators) side of the jetty straight on to the lairage area, and this area would by the 60s probably be more likely empty of both ships and beasts for most of the time.  They had to be cleared from the port fairly quickly once they been walked off the ship, only held for the port's vetinary officer's examination and possibly feeding and watering depending on how long it had been before their last feed before they were in the cattle wagons and on their way.  There are regulations that cover this sort of thing; probably more paperwork than for humans but the beasts complained less and ports like this had it down to a fine art.

 

Couple of fishing boats, wooden MFV style and smaller crabber/lobster pot types, maybe a Puffer although their stomping ground was a bit further north really, and some yachts, but nowhere near as many as there'd be nowadays, and Robert is your father's brother!

 

I think due to the set up in the loft it would need to be the stern then it may look ood at the link span as the side would be missing.  

 

That’s where I was thinking the stern actually nearer the end of the pier.  In the video it can be seen backing in towards the link span or if I put it there it would be just departing? 

 

Thst means I can keep it on the backscene away from colliding into.  The linkspan area is also quite constrained due to access.  

 

Kids permitting I’ll try and take some pictures tomorrow.

 

It would then allow a cargo boat to be moored by the Lairage. 

 

I’ve googled Irish Cattle boats but nothing comes up of use-would the scalescene Clyde puffer and cargo boat (1960’s) be anygood? 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • danstercivicman changed the title to Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.