Litton & Cressbrook

[cbeagleowner]

Hi All,

 

With a little gentle prodding I thought it might be time to start a thread for my loft based layout 'Litton and Cressbrook. This is my third major attempt at a Midland Layout.

 

The first was Hassop - you can find a thread for it here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64017-hassop/

 

The second was Stoney Middleton - a fictional what if assuming that the the Duke of Rutland hadn't let the railway go via Bakewell and the Midland built the potential route to the Hope Valley at Grindleford Bridge. I have a few photos which I'll stick below but I never took many. Tunnel mouth and Bridge by Freebs, black 5 weather by Maxstafford. I started to alter this but then we moved house and I got a better loft and 2 years later I'm now ready for track laying. To give you a little taste I'll pop a few photos below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This brings me to my latest project - Litton & Cressbrook. I wanted to model a real place but didn't have the space, so what I came up with what super-imposing a station on the mainline. This means I can use the timetables and train formations that actually went through the peak but still have something 'made up. 

 

Therefore the idea is that a small station was opened at Litton Mill with a road being built on the path of the footpath. Thus Litton Bridge became a road Bridge. There is also a small quarry opened near the entrance to Cressbrook Tunnel for a bit of variety.  Its track work is based on the 'pre-widening' Millers Dale. 

 

Because I want the layout to represent the major features of the peak, further North, I've played fast and loose with the topography -  some streams have moved slightly further north and have cut into the hillside to necessitate a small viaduct, and where in real life there is a cutting, there is now a tunnel. I basically drew this on the 1905 OS map - if this image shouldn't be here i'll remove it!

 

 

I think the thing I've I've laid down some standards for this layout

 

Control - Ive got a Z21. Seems ok. I would like things automated like points and signals but I'm not going down the full computer control route.

 

Track - OO Peco Bullhead - Points will be motorised be DCC concepts Cobalts. Not sure about the fiddle yard though...ballasted with geoscenics limestone (after a wash)

 

Locos and stock - accurate and weathered...by someone good - I've always gone pristine before. As train formations are generally shorter I can run accurate ones, though I play a bit fast and loose with the exact CK I use (for example). Eg below is the Liverpool Nottingham...spot the unlikely open coach!

 

 

Buildings - I'm going to have a go at building my own - I'm taken with Peter Smith's method with papers, though I do love Jeff's stuff on Kirby Luneside as well and I'd be willing to have a go!

 

Scenery - as above - it's the bit I enjoy!

 

Anyhow, this is getting rather long, so rather then droning on any more, I'll hit post!

 

 

 

 

['CHARD]

Awwww - I love this, and it's really timely too!

 

I've satisfied a long-thwarted dream this year, and walked the whole length of the Monsal trail from Bakewell to Blackwell Mill.  Needless to say, I totally get the atmosphere that has inspired you.

 

The walk also inspired me to plan and plot - quite literally - an alternative alignment of the Waverley route between the English border and Hawick, to form the plausible basis of my last great layout build.  I shall be keeping my eye on this topic, power to your elbow, sir!

[Alister_G]

Hi Rich,

 

Looking forward to this mate, sounds a great plan.

 

You can't have too many Peak District layouts, it's a law

 

Al.

[cbeagleowner]

Thanks for the kind comments! I’ll post some pics of the current work when I get home from the in laws.

 

‘Chard: Dave ‘MadMcCann’ smith nearly got me to model the Waverley as I could have nice scenery and NE Pacifics etc which was very appealing. However though I live on the GN and mum introduced me to Raised me on thnow the pull of home was too strong. And Rule 1 means still have a selection of NE motive power too though I try to have stuff that has some tie to the midland. To that end I thought I’d post something about the current loco fleet. Ive got most of it, though Still some stuff that I need to wait for as it’s not produced as yet or as with the SLW 24 Iissedot. I’ve put this as NYP.

 

Peak line stuff

1. Blue Pullman

2. Class 28 - late crest

3. Class 44 - late crest (NYP)

4. Class 24 - late crest (NYP)

5. 10001 LMS black

6. 10203 BR green grey roof

7. Derby Lightweight - early crest

8. Rebuilt Scot BR Green early - Green Howards - 20A

9. Unrebuilt Pat BR green early crest - Derbyshire Yeomanry - 45509

10. Rebuilt Patriot BR green late crest - Prestatyn - 45522

11. Britannia BR green late - Morning Star - 70021

12. Jubilee BR green early - drake needs changing to Madras 45575 - S4-R - 14B

13. Jubilee LMS black - LMS 1946 with BR number SFB - Canada 45553 - Fowler 9E (NYP)

14. Jubilee Experimental Green - 45604 SFB - Ceylon 20A S4-W (NYP)

15. Black 5 BR lined black early crest - 17A

16. Fairbairn tank lined black early crest

17. Ivatt 2MT late crest

19. Compound lined black late emblem 41157

20. Compound LMS crimson BR number on front 934 on cab in serif as per photo

21. Crab plain black BRITISH RAILWAYS (NYP)

22. Super D plain black early crest

24. 1F no cab BRITISH RAILWAYS (Rowsley shunter)

25. 1P 58072 lined black early emblem

26. 4F plain black late crest

27. 3F plain black - change to LMS serif with BR number in serif

28. 9F plain black late crest

29. WD plain black early crest

30. Robinson 04 plain black late crest (the one I have a pic of is an O4/8 but I have the original)

31. Jinty plain black late crest (kicking about at Rowsley)

32. Fowler tank BR late crest

33. 8F - 8510 Change to LMS on tender with BR number on cab as per photo.

34. Stanier Mogul riveted tender BRITISH RAILWAYS as per Hassop pic

35. Standard 4MT (4-6-0) - late crest lined black

36. B1 BR lined black early emblem

 

Stuff that’s been on the Midland at some point - I only have the pig so far!

1. Flying Pig double chimney plain black plain black 43001 in BR Gill Sans with 1946 LMS on tender. Bletchley shedplate

2. Clan 72009 Clan Stewart - BR early emblem seen at Kettering

3. L1 67769 / 40E or 67729 & 37 from Stratford As used on coal train trials

4. O1 as per steaming through Northamptonshire

5. V2 lined black early emblem as per Kettering

6. Garratt with LMS block style BR number

7. Princess Margaret Rose - overhauled at Derby when changed from blue to green.

8. Rebuilt Scot ‘royal Iniskilling fusiliers’ LMS 1946 with BRITISH RAILWAYS On tender.

9. 10201 BR black - work on trial at Derby

 

Stuff I like:

1. J50 BRITISH RAILWAYS black

2. A4 Sparrow Hawk BR Blue - did reach Millhouses but not until it was green

3. A3 BR Green early crest / 52B / Captain Cuttle (from Ladas)

5. B17 BR lined green early emblem - Hinchingbrooke - B17/2 until 1957 - it’s where my kids were born

6. K3 lined black - tender need changing from Early crest to BRITISH RAILWAYS - K3’s got to Chesterfield later on.

7. Coronation ‘city of Sheffield’ (NYP)

 

Stuff I like but doesn’t exist (yet)

1. Caprotti class 5 low running plate 44757 early crest

2. W1 BRITISH RAILWAYS Garter Blue

3. A1/1 BR blue early crest - Great Northern / NT tender spoked wheels

4. A2/1 BRITISH RAILWAYS apple green - Duke of Rothesay - could be BR apple green or early emblem

5. A2/2 BR early crest lined green - Cock O' the North

6. A2/3 BR early crest lined green - Ocean Swell / 117 boiler / NT tender

7. A4 woodcock BRITISH RAILWAYS experimental purple

8. 2F 58125 LMS serif on tender & LMS tender

9. Caprotti standard 5 late crest

10. 2P 40520 LMS serif 17A

11. 10100 BR early black

12. 10800 BR early green unlined

13. Princess Margaret Rose 46203 in BR early crest green

[Lecorbusier]

Good on you Richard.

 

A thread is a great way to keep you at the coalface ... not to mention all the helpful comments and support it gives.

 

Looking forward to it ... seriously jealous of the space you have.

[cbeagleowner]

Cheers Tim. I think you’re right on both counts and that your thought to start a thread was wise!

 

Do put a link on to your super thread too!

[Lecorbusier]

Cheers Tim. I think you’re right on both counts and that your thought to start a thread was wise!

 

Do put a link on to your super thread too!

Its at the base of my posts below the signature as a blue link. .... a beginners journey  

Edited December 28, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[cbeagleowner]

Ah! I’m on my phone so don’t see everything. I would highly recommend people having a look!

[cbeagleowner]

And now a track plan...It's based on Millers Dale pre 1905 widening from the 1897 OS map. The map of the pre widening station in 'Through Limestone Hills' is slightly different as it doesn't have the extra siding parallel to the goods line. I'm assuming that the OS is correct on this one.

 

Mainline points are large radius bullhead.

Minimum curve on the inside (up) line 36 inches.

 

Because of the physical boundary of the river on the real Millers Dale the goods yard layout isn't classic midland as at Bakewell / Hassop with the goods shed coming off a loop and being parallel to the main line. But even with 22ft for me to do that would have meant the head shunt going round the corner. Also that would have made the crusher trickier!

 

 

I have a few questions for experts...

 

1. Would any of the buffer stops have needed a Midland 'heavy' stop? I understand that they were generally placed where a train might have the potential to plough through them.

 

2. Re signalling - I envisaged moving the 4 doll distant / home signal for Millers Dale to the front of the viaduct. Anyone have any other ideas on the signalling please?

 

3. Would a limeworks such as at great rocks be better then the crusher arrangement? On the OS map is just says screens on MD station quarry and I'm not totally sure what they are in the grand scheme of things!

 

4. I have real issues with the fiddle yard....but that's one for later...

[Alister_G]

Hi Rich,

 

Looking at your plan, it seems to me that the only way for an "up" train to enter the sidings is either to reverse onto the down line through the station and then pull forward into the sidings, or to pull into the Cressbrook tunnel and then reverse across the down into the loop. Neither of these appear likely, the first because of the time taken to use the down line in the station, unlike a single propelling move across it, as was common Midland practice, and the second because of entering the tunnel in order to shunt.

 

There is a signalling issue with the latter as well, the Millers Dale block would normally end at the tunnel entrance, with the up starter being close to the tunnel portal, but as you have it now your up train would have to pass the starter and enter the next section in order to then reverse into the sidings, meaning that the signalman would have to offer the train to the next block, and then cancel it again.

 

To answer your other points, I can't help on the heavy duty stop, except to say "Rule One"

 

Re 3, I seem to recall there was a limeworks recorded at Millers Dale - can't remember where I read that, I'll have a look. It wouldn't be anything like the scale of Great Rocks though.

 

All the best,

 

Al.

['CHARD]

 

Re 3, I seem to recall there was a limeworks recorded at Millers Dale - can't remember where I read that, I'll have a look. It wouldn't be anything like the scale of Great Rocks though.

 

 

That rings a bell here too, was it not to the north of the line (so, 'up' side) and west of the station?  There's the remains of a kiln (I think) with an explainer board at the side of the Monsal Trail, IIRC...

[Lecorbusier]

Afraid your questions are beyond my pay grade at present ... but will be interested in the answers/suggestions. If you are not familiar with the attached it might be of interest as background. 

 

Railway Modeller-Monsaldale Millersdale.pdf

[cbeagleowner]

Thanks for the replies - particularly thanks to you Al for raising those points.

 

Tim also thanks for the help you've given on the 'heavy' stops in the past.

 

I've attached below the Millers Dale pre widening track plan. I've tried to copy it but it might simply be that I've got something wrong here. so if you spot anything please do point it out! 

 

 

It also shows station quarry and the beginning of the limeworks to the left (north side). Before the 4 tracking they were very much independent of each other. I don't know if they were connected in any way. I've attached some pics that I took last year - excuse the  little helpers in the pics.

 

Station quarry (just to the north)

 

Limeworks (further to the north)

 

Limeworks to the South on the west side of the line - bits and bobs still there

 

My thoughts on the tunnel thing are that I could pretend that 'Priestcliffe Tunnel' is just a short one like Great Rocks or  Chee Dale #3. Would that help the signal siting problem? It would be nice to have the junction signals for Millers Dale there as it would add something but hey ho.

 

Re the other end I'm not totally sure what to do about the up line entrance to the goods yard. That would need to be on a single slip but as you say going into the tunnel wouldn't be a goer...and because it's set in the 'real world' I can't make Cressbrook tunnel shorter!I think my options are

 

a) compromise on the layout and put it down to compression

b) somehow find a way to have a single slip in the curve, but that's beyond me.

c) Make the scenic break a bridge for some reason as opposed to the tunnel...

d) something better I've not thought of!

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Millers Dale trackplan.tiff

[Alister_G]

Looking at the trackplan, it brings home just how much they managed to cram into what is effectively a ledge on the side of a hill!

 

I'd forgotten how extensive the quarry sidings were as well.

 

For this bit:

 

 

I'd be tempted to ditch the Up access altogether:

 

 

and just use the other end. That's how Bakewell was laid out - only reversed of course. There was only one entrance for Up traffic and one for Down, at opposite ends of the yard.

 

That said, I'm not sure how you get around the Cressbrook end unless you move the crossover and slip nearer to the station.

 

Cheers,

 

Al.

[cbeagleowner]

 

Sad day today as we found out our 6 month old kitten died. Seems like he got run over even though we live on a fairly quiet road. We'll miss him very much. But back to railways.

 

I think you're right about that crossover - I should have seen it before, but that's really about getting the Buxton train into the bay I think...

 

According to Bill Hudson originally this was a lie-bye which then had the loco release line added. I was wondering about a lie-bye, but thought it impossible. I'm just not sure that you would have one barely a mile from Millers Dale...

 

Interestingly the quarry to the South of the station...is that bold venture?...because of the cramped site had to take portions of train out of the sidings and then form it up on the main line. To say there was all the other traffic going through that was a pretty amazing excercise on a 2 track mainline!

Edited December 30, 2018 by cbeagleowner

[Alister_G]

So sorry to hear about your kitten Rich, not a nice New Year present...

 

Hope the kids are ok.

 

 

 

Interestingly the quarry to the South of the station...is that bold venture?...because of the cramped site had to take portions of train out of the sidings and then form it up on the main line. To say there was all the other traffic going through that was a pretty amazing excercise on a 2 track mainline!

 

Yep, you read all the time about not using the mainline for shunting, but that's what they did. Given how busy the line was - it was after all the main route through to Manchester - they must have had to be bloody quick about getting the trains formed and away!

 

Al.

[Alister_G]

Looking again at the trackplan tiff, I notice that the other side of the line from the quarry, it says "hydraulic rams" in the middle of a field. I wonder what they were for.

 

Unless they're a special kind of sheep, of course...

 

Al.

[Worsdell forever]

Looking again at the trackplan tiff, I notice that the other side of the line from the quarry, it says "hydraulic rams" in the middle of a field. I wonder what they were for.

 

Unless they're a special kind of sheep, of course...

 

Al.

 

Probably one of these  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram

[cbeagleowner]

Thanks for the thoughts Al. It just sucks really...

 

Tim is the man with the info on the Rams. From memory it's something to do with getting water from the river to the quarry. It seems to have been stored / pumped to the below.

 

[Mrkirtley800]

Thanks for the thoughts Al. It just sucks really...

 

Tim is the man with the info on the Rams. From memory it's something to do with getting water from the river to the quarry. It seems to have been stored / pumped to the below.

 

IMG_0133.jpeg

Yes you are right, the idea was to use water hammer to get a proportion of the water’up hill’. My water undertaking had one that went on forever supplying drinking water from a very clean stream to a small community. All that was needed was to add a small measured quantity of chlorine as a precaution. The water was tested for quality pretty frequently.

Derek

[danstercivicman]

Sorry to hear about the cat!

 

I guess before the Health and safety act shunting was a tad more speedy

[cbeagleowner]

I finally got time to do a bit of track layout testing. So if you would like the grand tour on board the Palatine no less,  have a look below!

 

Firstly, in case you're interested in baseboard construction I did it by doing a framework with struts, then I've got some 3.5 inch timbers. On which I've put the ply. It's probably not the best way to do it, but It gives me a middle and bottom level so the railway can be more 'in the environment'.

 

 

 

Any, out journey beings as the mighty Palatine (ahem) speeds northwards out of Cressbrook tunnel which seems to resemble part of Stonehenge! You start to see the goods loop and the 2nd siding.

 

 

Creeping into view are the three tracks of the crusher. It might be that there is a better design for the tracks here...needs work. Also there should be a 3 way at the far end too, but I didn't have a third template!

 

 

 

 

We approach the slip to allow up trains to enter the goods yard. There is about 6ft of 'plain track after this in the up direction before Cressbrook tunnel. I'm not sure if this solves the problem of being too close or not...

 

 

 

 

As we turn the corner we see the crusher / quarry / etc track quite a distance from the sidings. The idea here is that you have one of those classic 'Great Rocks' scenes where the quarry and main  lines are separated by a stone wall or even a rock formation. Any excuse for a bit of geology!

 

 

We then start to enter the reverse curve into the station. I was quite taken by Dave Frankshaving FB as well as BH track. He said you could get sections going into stations where the engine would put it's brakes on and the track would be worn quicker. I don't know if I should do it at both ends of the station. And I need to cut the webbing and space the sleepers like the BH.

 

 

There seems to be a train in the station...whoops. Happily though it helps us see the layout of the station and goods yard!

 

 

 

After magically passing through the train in the station platform, the Palatine continues on it's climb to Peak Forest, going over Ravenstor Viaduct, and then entering Prisetcliffe tunnel, which again displays a certain Greco Roman style in it's portal.

 

 

 

 

Then we enter the fiddle yard, which I have no idea what to do with...All change!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by cbeagleowner

[davidw]

I finally got time to do a bit of track layout testing. So if you would like the grand tour on board the Palatine no less, have a look below!

 

Firstly, in case you're interested in baseboard construction I did it by doing a framework with struts, then I've got some 3.5 inch timbers. On which I've put the ply. It's probably not the best way to do it, but It gives me a middle and bottom level so the railway can be more 'in the environment'.

 

IMG_2663.jpeg

 

IMG_2663.jpeg

 

Any, out journey beings as the mighty Palatine (ahem) speeds northwards out of Cressbrook tunnel which seems to resemble part of Stonehenge! You start to see the goods loop and the 2nd siding.

 

IMG_2645.jpeg

 

Creeping into view are the three tracks of the crusher. It might be that there is a better design for the tracks here...needs work. Also there should be a 3 way at the far end too, but I didn't have a third template!

 

IMG_2646.jpeg

 

IMG_2647.jpeg

 

IMG_2651.jpeg

 

We approach the slip to allow up trains to enter the goods yard. There is about 6ft of 'plain track after this in the up direction before Cressbrook tunnel. I'm not sure if this solves the problem of being too close or not...

 

IMG_2648.jpeg

 

IMG_2652.jpeg

 

IMG_2653.jpeg

 

As we turn the corner we see the crusher / quarry / etc track quite a distance from the sidings. The idea here is that you have one of those classic 'Great Rocks' scenes where the quarry and main lines are separated by a stone wall or even a rock formation. Any excuse for a bit of geology!

 

IMG_2649.jpeg

 

We then start to enter the reverse curve into the station. I was quite taken by Dave Frankshaving FB as well as BH track. He said you could get sections going into stations where the engine would put it's brakes on and the track would be worn quicker. I don't know if I should do it at both ends of the station. And I need to cut the webbing and space the sleepers like the BH.

 

IMG_2650.jpeg

 

There seems to be a train in the station...whoops. Happily though it helps us see the layout of the station and goods yard!

 

IMG_2654.jpeg

 

IMG_2655.jpeg

 

After magically passing through the train in the station platform, the Palatine continues on it's climb to Peak Forest, going over Ravenstor Viaduct, and then entering Prisetcliffe tunnel, which again displays a certain Greco Roman style in it's portal.

 

IMG_2656.jpeg

 

IMG_2657.jpeg

 

IMG_2658.jpeg

 

Then we enter the fiddle yard, which I have no idea what to do with...All change!

 

IMG_2659.jpeg

 

IMG_2660.jpeg

 

IMG_2661.jpeg

You've been busy!

[cbeagleowner]

Thanks for the post - I'll be taking some close ups of your excellent restaurant car soon! I slipped it into the background like and Engine Shed teaser. Hope moving plans are going ok.

[Alister_G]

That's looking great! I hadn't realised how far along you'd got.

 

I should think the 6 feet between the slip and Cressbrook tunnel portal should be fine, I hadn't realised how much length there was.

 

Although the line was busy, the actual traffic into Millers Dale Yard would have been quite small, and the trains wouldn't have been more than five or six wagons at a time, I wouldn't have thought. If you look at Lecorbusier's thread there's quite a discussion about how much traffic was actually generated.

 

Looking good mate, nice work.

 

Al.