RMweb Gold Right Away Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 Just a warning for some of us cold mortals when heating our model railway premises. My model railway is located in an outbuilding and therefore heating can be required when temperatures drop substantially. Recently I have experienced cases where sealed 13A plug tops attached to heating appliances get very hot when carrying a heavy electrical load. Many electrical appliances these days for reasons of safety are fitted with the sealed "moulded" type of 13 Amp plug top to which the only user access is the cartridge fuse carrier and one assumes there would be nothing untoward within the plug itself which would be problematic. Not always......! In one instance the plug from the heater, hot to the touch was melting on the underside and the heat transfer via the pins to the wall outlet was sufficient to distort the innards of the socket which itself had to be replaced. The moulded plug from the heater was replaced with one from the MK range (my preferred brand for accessories) and there was no further overheating issue. Because of the inaccessible nature of the original fitted plugs, the exact fault could not be identified, nevertheless this kind of experience creates a deep mistrust of the seemingly innocuous moulded plugs when carrying near to their rated maximum current. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I suggest you contact trading standards. What you describe is a “never event”, as in “should never ever happen under any circumstances”. It may be that there was a one-off fault in the appliance you bought, or there may be a container-load of them, waiting to set fire to houses, grannies, anything. They might be genuine, or a cheapo “passing off” copy of a reputable brand. In any case, another Grenfell is a genuine possibility. Please provide the details & the part to the relevant authority. Atb Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 Just a warning for some of us cold mortals when heating our model railway premises. My model railway is located in an outbuilding and therefore heating can be required when temperatures drop substantially. Recently I have experienced cases where sealed 13A plug tops attached to heating appliances get very hot when carrying a heavy electrical load. Many electrical appliances these days for reasons of safety are fitted with the sealed "moulded" type of 13 Amp plug top to which the only user access is the cartridge fuse carrier and one assumes there would be nothing untoward within the plug itself which would be problematic. Not always......! In one instance the plug from the heater, hot to the touch was melting on the underside and the heat transfer via the pins to the wall outlet was sufficient to distort the innards of the socket which itself had to be replaced. The moulded plug from the heater was replaced with one from the MK range (my preferred brand for accessories) and there was no further overheating issue. Because of the inaccessible nature of the original fitted plugs, the exact fault could not be identified, nevertheless this kind of experience creates a deep mistrust of the seemingly innocuous moulded plugs when carrying near to their rated maximum current. That actually sounds like the heater was drawing way more power than it should, I would report it to where you purchased it from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Could also be a socket issue or a fuse issue, so well worth checking out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2018 Could also be a socket issue or a fuse issue, so well worth checking out. Agreed, it could be a socket issue too, as the OP said that it had to be replaced. If the contacts are loose heat could be generated, until it fails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 I suggest you contact trading standards. What you describe is a “never event”, as in “should never ever happen under any circumstances”. It may be that there was a one-off fault in the appliance you bought, or there may be a container-load of them, waiting to set fire to houses, grannies, anything. They might be genuine, or a cheapo “passing off” copy of a reputable brand. In any case, another Grenfell is a genuine possibility. Please provide the details & the part to the relevant authority. Atb Simon No pressure then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 That actually sounds like the heater was drawing way more power than it should, I would report it to where you purchased it from. Then the fuse would have blown as that is what it is there for, unless it was dodgy too. It could of course been dirty/poor contact between the plug pins and the socket as that could have the same effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I would think that the problem is more likely to have been a faulty socket overheating and causing the plug to get hot due to heat transfer through the plug pins. If the plug was the cause of the problem, I would expect the plug to melt or distort rather than the socket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 I discovered My Argos convection Heater that used to heat my shed burned out the plug and socket a few months back, the plug itself had melted one of the metal pins and the socket was burned out in the relevant hole too, that heater was only used when I was in the shed, never left to provide frost protection thankfully the shed is now OOU anyway as I transfer everything to the garage but it was certainly an eye opener as I was going to use the heater in our caravan which had something similar happened in there could have been far more serious Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted December 30, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 The heater was tried in various sockets when the overheating was first discovered and the plug heated up in all of them, even in those in a different location. It is singular that on replacement with a new plug the problem disappeared; no overheating in any of the aforementioned sockets. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Jonboy Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 Then the fuse would have blown as that is what it is there for, unless it was dodgy too. It could of course been dirty/poor contact between the plug pins and the socket as that could have the same effect. I have seen a prototype kiln pull 22 amps on a 13 amp fuse before without blowing....we were investigating it after 2 sockets in a row burnt out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 reporting it to trading standards, in my experience with a similar electrical faulty item, is a waste of your time. It'll take ages to explain what has happened, and other than maybe an acknowledgement of your report, they do very little.They may do something if they have a number of the same reports and houses start burning down, but how will they know what caused that? If you go to the fuss of returning equipment, then the retailer may be agreeable to replacing the item, or give a refund, but is unlikely to do much else. The problem is, for you it is an unusual happening, something that should not occur, and the expectation maybe along the lines that the manufacturer will stop his production line, recall all the equipment, and correct the fault. But, in reality, the stuff was most likely batch produced in China, by some unknown manufacturer, who won't even be making that gear anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 All of which may be true, but if you don’t report it, and there is another “fire caused by a faulty electrical appliance” which causes injury or death, you’ll always wonder whether if you had, the accident would have been avoided. Trading standards may do nothing, and do it slowly, but preventing faulty goods being on the market is the key reason for their existence - and if you’ve reported it, it becomes their responsibility, morally and legally. They are there to ensure that products actually meet the design standards that government has decided are required. Remember the Tumble Dryers? It takes a while, but they do act eventually... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/household-appliances-recalled-due-to-fire-risk Meanwhile for the benefit of the community on here, would you mind telling us the make & model? Atb Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Then the fuse would have blown as that is what it is there for, unless it was dodgy too. It takes quite a lot of overload to blow a fuse. Fuses (and circuit breakers in the consumer unit) only act fast against faults (short circuits), not simple overloads. All of which may be true, but if you don’t report it, and there is another “fire caused by a faulty electrical appliance” which causes injury or death, you’ll always wonder whether if you had, the accident would have been avoided. And we will all get stuffed with more Part P style nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 The standard with fuses is that they blow at twice the rated current (don't ask me why) and will carry near to that value forever. They will get warm, maybe even hot, but not blow until twice the rated current. I have had plugs get hot, even good old MK, if the wires are loose or poorly terminated. eg only one or two of the cores actually terminated, or the screws not really tight. It does pay to go round your house about once a year and check all the screws and terminations where you can get to them , particularly those carrying heavy current like heaters, kettles, immersion heaters, washing machines, dishwashers, tumble driers etc. (And there will be an awful lot of them) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 here's some curves to look at https://pat-testing-fss.blogspot.com/2014/02/whay-13-amp-fuse-does-not-seem-to-blow.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Cliff Fuses have a curved time vs current characteristic, the specifics for a 13A B1362 fuse being well-explained here https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php Different fuses, for different purposes, have different curves, so the "two times" rule of thumb is more or less misguiding! The figure is c1.67 for a 13A BS1362. From the OP's description, I'm fairly convinced that the fault was with the plug, and would love to slice it open to look at its innards. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted December 30, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) Meanwhile for the benefit of the community on here, would you mind telling us the make & model? The heater was marketed as a "Trueshopping" 3kW model sold by Amazon and was received as a gift. Some heaters of this design have been reported to cause overheating issues with the supply flex/plug but mine is fine now that the plug was replaced. Nevertheless,it is never really advisable to leave these things unattended. Edited December 30, 2018 by Right Away Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Quite a lot of my moulded plugs on washing machines,dishwashers, modern heaters get hot so yes know what you mean I suspect no space inside like plugs you can wire yourselves, sometimes the odd one fails so put on an old solid plastic type made in 1980's, I keep all old plugs so got quite a box, I did notice they get less hot if hot at all 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durranhill Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 The heater was marketed as a "Trueshopping" 3kW model sold by Amazon and was received as a gift. Some heaters of this design have been reported to cause overheating issues with the supply flex/plug but mine is fine now that the plug was replaced. Nevertheless,it is never really advisable to leave these things unattended. A 3KW heater if used at it's higher setting should be used with a 16A power supply which means uprated wiring , sockets & plugs - https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/gewiss-iec-309-16a-switched-interlocked-socket-240v-gw66004_265?gclid=CjwKCAiA9qHhBRB2EiwA7poaeEVNkU9B9AVdlErq87q4g10GEmFfLRQBfZsI3VgYxEl6UlPFyqgw-hoCT18QAvD_BwE Stewart . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) A 3KW heater if used at it's higher setting should be used with a 16A power supply which means uprated wiring , sockets & plugs - https://www.rselectricalsupplies.co.uk/gewiss-iec-309-16a-switched-interlocked-socket-240v-gw66004_265?gclid=CjwKCAiA9qHhBRB2EiwA7poaeEVNkU9B9AVdlErq87q4g10GEmFfLRQBfZsI3VgYxEl6UlPFyqgw-hoCT18QAvD_BwE Stewart . Pull the other one! 3kW appliances have been sold for use with 13 amp plugs for as long as I can remember, who would expect anyone to rewire their house with industrial sockets to use standard domestic items. Properly compliant 13 amp plugs on a 30 amp ringmain are designed for this. The problem here is quite simply an inadequate plug, either in design or lack of quality control. In this era of cheap imports there is a lot of this about. Ironic really that prefitted plugs were mandated because of the difficulty of policing consumer fitted plugs and now we have no way to police factory fitting. Regards Edited December 30, 2018 by Grovenor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2018 .... The problem here is quite simply an inadequate plug, either in design or lack of quality control. In this era of cheap imports there is a lot of this about. Ironic really that prefitted plugs were mandated because of the difficulty of policing consumer fitted plugs and now we have no way to police factory fitting. Regards Many years ago, before the advent of the moulded/fitted plug, I was trained and worked as an electrician. Having seen some horrors in my time when the customer was left to their own devices I welcome the factory fitted plug. It must have made the world a safer place. Policing dangerous items of all sorts should be the remit of trading standards, it certainly was the case that they would and could act in a timely way. The local North Yorkshire trading standards officers had time and resources to not only react to complaints but go out and sample/test products to make sure they complied. However it seems as though trading standards departments have suffered severe staffing cutbacks which can only impact on their ability to do their job and keep dangerous items out of the marketplace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I suspect the problem was caused by poor contact at the outlet but as both the plug and the outlet have now been replaced we will never find the root cause. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted December 30, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2018 Many years ago, before the advent of the moulded/fitted plug, I was trained and worked as an electrician. Having seen some horrors in my time when the customer was left to their own devices I welcome the factory fitted plug. It must have made the world a safer place. Policing dangerous items of all sorts should be the remit of trading standards, it certainly was the case that they would and could act in a timely way. The local North Yorkshire trading standards officers had time and resources to not only react to complaints but go out and sample/test products to make sure they complied. However it seems as though trading standards departments have suffered severe staffing cutbacks which can only impact on their ability to do their job and keep dangerous items out of the marketplace. A friend of mine wired up a spur from a Fusebox so that he could run a Pillar Drill he had. The cable from the Pillar Drill was wired into a Socket; on the end of the spur from the Fusebox was a 13A plug...... I recall putting on the kitchen light one evening and nothing happened. "Blown bulb" I thought. So I put on the light in an adjacent room to provide enough illumination to fit a new bulb; at this point I notice broken glass all over the kitchen floor. For some reason the bulb/ceiling pendant had overheated to the point where the bulb holder melted and dropped the bulb. Boy was I glad the buld holder was plastic and not metal...... Have you still got the moulded plug you cut off? Trading Standards may well be pleased to see it for investigation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted December 31, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2018 (edited) Have you still got the moulded plug you cut off? Trading Standards may well be pleased to see it for investigationThe faulty plug was thrown away by "The Boss", complaining that it smelled like TCP! In fairness to her it did honk; I intended to at least photograph it but that opportunity has passed. Edited December 31, 2018 by Right Away Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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