How long would a diesel loco be left ticking over

[Londontram]

As a young lad in the 1970s I did a bit of shed bashing around the earwash vally from Toton up to Stavely (pre preserved days) including Notting and Derby. Some sheds were easier to get onto than others two favorits being the afore mentioned Staverly and also westhouses.

This was mostly done on a Sunday and one thing that struck me was just how many locos were just sat on shed just ticking over. All most all the class 56 at Westhouses both English and Romanian built ones. But also class 20, 08 and class 47 with the odd peak as well.

Knowing one of the signalman at West houses (I knew his lad from school) I would sit in the box there for hours with a mug of tea listening to his memories with nothing coming or going.

 

So how long could/would they be left ticking over could it even be over a whole weekend.

[russ p]

In cold weather most locos outside would be kept running continuously as they weren't antifreezed

[Rugd1022]

At Old Oak in the '70s, particularly in their last few years the Westerns would often be left ticking over for several days. Battery problems were quite common in this period too so leaving them idling was seen as very prudent.

[Right Away]

At Old Oak in the '70s, particularly in their last few years the Westerns would often be left ticking over for several days. Battery problems were quite common in this period too so leaving them idling was seen as very prudent.

It would be interesting to have known the cost of these practices in terms of unproductive fuel consumed; good job the eco people weren't aware of it in those days.

[E3109]

Locos used to be left idling overnight at Springs Branch quite regularly, especially in the winter months.

Then an old folks' home was built on the embankment behind the depot, complaints were raised and it got stopped.

This would've been in the early to mid 1980s.

 

I can see both sides to this, however if you open a new building next to a TMD then what do you expect?

At the time there were a lot of Class 20s subshedded at SP from Toton, so I also sort of get their point...

[Rugd1022]

It would be interesting to have known the cost of these practices in terms of unproductive fuel consumed; good job the eco people weren't aware of it in those days.

 

Back then, although nobody really mentioned it much, the cost would have been weighed against the possibility of delays or cancellations due to failure / non availability of the booked traction. Keeping the job running at any cost was the priority in those days.

[Titan]

Presumably if a loco or DMU engine could not be run due to failure, then on freezing days the coolant would need to be drained PDQ to avoid damage.

[The Johnster]

At Canton in the 70s there was a sort of unspoken dread of locos failing to start, not entirely unjustified (happened to me with a Hymek at Rhoose cement works once), and fuel costs were not considered more important than availability, and the environmental issue seems to have not been considered at all.  There were place where notices asked drivers to shut their engines down; I remember Mainee Down Loop was one, due to resident's complaints.  But Canton shed itself, and especially the dmu depot, was a major polluter of diesel fumes, and in cold high pressure winter weather a dreadful fug all over Riverside, Canton, and Saltmead, the northern part of Grangetown.  The noise issue was pervasive as well; it is surprising how intrusive a large number of dmus ticking over is over even quite a large distance, and shunting moves with them added a layer of flange squeal!  It was noisy and dirty and nobody did anything about it.  The loco depot was just as bad, especially with the hydraulics, but was in more of a dip so the problem didn't really get past the houses backing on Ninian Park Road. 

 

There was an 08 on Cardiff dock that had a starting problem which allegedly ran continually for 4 years, until the oil filter blocked.

[russ p]

Presumably if a loco or DMU engine could not be run due to failure, then on freezing days the coolant would need to be drained PDQ to avoid damage.

They tried to get them under cover in a depot

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It would be interesting to have known the cost of these practices in terms of unproductive fuel consumed; good job the eco people weren't aware of it in those days.

 

Think you have to roll back to the general industry mindset of those then at decision making level, which was conditioned by steam operation. The fire was burning non stop on steamers, and with a thermal efficiency less than a third of an average diesel loco when running, and far more time idle, the steam loco was an energetic disaster in eco terms. And even those pushing the eco angle (which was well underway at that time) would have been chary of pushing at railway which offered net efficiencies in transport over road.

[Chris M]

I thought the answer was going to be all day Saturday and also all day Sunday if it’s a two day exhibition.

 

Oh I do hope those with TMD exhibition layouts aren’t reading this.

[AberdeenBill]

Could a loco be fuelled with the engine running?

 

Happy new Year,

Bill

[mjkerr]

Could a loco be fuelled with the engine running?

It is possible to do so

However, best practice is to switch the engine off

At Aberdeen (1989 to 1996) I can only remember two occasions where the engine was not switched off

[royaloak]

Could a loco be fuelled with the engine running?

 

Happy new Year,

Bill

Yes, not an issue, although it is normal for a fuel point exam to take place at the same time, checking fluid levels etc so its normal for an engine to be shut down while fuelled.

 

Happy New Year to you as well.

Edited January 1, 2019 by royaloak

[EddieK]

I recall reading about the latter years of Class 127 DMUs and the units stabled at Cricklewood or Bedford would keep the engines running so as to ensure a service the next morning.

[EddieK]

A friend works in the train crew depot on Chester station. On many occasions the "Chirk Logs" train would have to stable near his office for some hours. If hauled by a 56, then they were quite happy to let the loco idle all night if necessary, but if it was a 66, they would invite the driver into the Arriva mess room, tell him to shut the godawful row down and agree with the signalman to get prior notification when the train would be able to move.....

[The Stationmaster]

I remember being told a good long while back that when air temperature was down to freezing there was only enough power in the batteries to give you two chances of starting a Brush Type 4 - so much safer to leave it running.  Some diesel hydraulics had pre0heaters for cold starts but they were reckoned to be reliable so it was always the case with Hymeks to leave them running on cold night.  And it was a Standing Instruction on the Western back in the 1970s that engines on mainline locos stabled outdoors (as most were) were to be left running if the air fell to a certain level temperature - we had a regular complainant at Radyr who lived on the hill above our stabling point and he was quite shirty about all our 37s being left overnight with the engines running.

[Londontram]

Thanks chaps I never realised it was as wide spread as it seems.

[Robert Shrives]

Well the Fuel thing - now Arriva units have  5 - 8 minute idle max then in case of the 220/221 a controlled shut down - but battery life still an issue. If engines only shutdown and not a full shutdown then batts can last just 2 hours and then no start up is a risk , the work around known as Apollo 13 !

 

In 1970s on a night visit to Buxton with 110s banging away my dad asked about antifreeze - fitter joked and said heard about leaks !

hot engines and hoses sealed nicely, when cold a bit of a colander ..

 

Soghtly  OT noting now WM buses non hybrid are being shutdown on arrival at terminal stops in central Brum.  The Hybrids depending on how driven may or not start up when leaving first stops - but seem to be a diesel restart more often than not so not sure all is as high tech as it might or drivers not trusting yet.

 

Robert        

[SRman]

I was riding a class 185 unt recently from Newton-le-Willows to Manchester, and noted that the coach I was on shut down its engine a couple of times while we were in motion. Reading about it later, it seems there is an economy mode where the engines are selectively shut down to save fuel while the train is not under load.

On the bus front, our local Melbourne operator, Ventura Bus Lines bought three Scania low-floor buses with ethanol powered engines, put into service in 2000, and which, in general, have been successful and are still in use now. Turn around times at Blackburn Station are usually only five to ten minutes, but for economy, drivers of all buses were instructed to shut down if it was going to be more than a certain time. However, when the first really hot days hit (30 degrees plus - Centigrade), it was discovered that the ethanol buses didn't want to start up again, so the instructions were modified that the ethanol buses were on no account to be shut down!

[rodent279]

On a technical note, why are railway diesel engines not filled with anti freeze? I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale?

And regarding starting-reliable starting ought to be part of good design.

[Enterprisingwestern]

On a technical note, why are railway diesel engines not filled with anti freeze? I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale?

And regarding starting-reliable starting ought to be part of good design.

 

Not knowing for sure, but I would imagine it was the shocking build quality of early diesels, introducing an agent to find and exacerbate an already iffy situation would be asking for trouble.

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

At Tonbridge West Yard one day, I observed some staff dragging a heavy cable; they opened the battery compartment on one,47 and attached the cable to the batteries. They then did the same to another on an adjacent track. The driver on the first loco gunned his engine; there were some asthmatic wheezes, and a lot of smoke, from the other loco, as it coughed into life.

[melmerby]

 

Soghtly  OT noting now WM buses non hybrid are being shutdown on arrival at terminal stops in central Brum.  The Hybrids depending on how driven may or not start up when leaving first stops - but seem to be a diesel restart more often than not so not sure all is as high tech as it might or drivers not trusting yet.

 

Robert        

Euro 6 spec includes auto shut-off/start.

 

Keith

 

EDIT NXWM have a lot of new buses, so Euro 6 spec.

Edited January 2, 2019 by melmerby

[Titan]

Not knowing for sure, but I would imagine it was the shocking build quality of early diesels, introducing an agent to find and exacerbate an already iffy situation would be asking for trouble.

 

Mike.

 

Partly that, antifreeze seems to leak more than water.  Antifreeze is also expensive, especially the large quantities that a locomotive cooling system requires. There is a chance that the cost of diesel to keep them running was less than the cost of antifreeze...

 

Corrosion was not much of an issue with most BR diesels. There were exceptions, particularly Deltics which would have corrosion issues leading to failed liners if the correct ethylene glycol solution was not used. BR found out that one the hard way by ignoring what EE told them and using the same coolant in them as everything else...