How long would a diesel loco be left ticking over

[mjkerr]

On a technical note, why are railway diesel engines not filled with anti freeze? I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale?

And regarding starting-reliable starting ought to be part of good design.

As an example the Class 47 has a 300 gallon coolant system

However it did not use anti-freeze due to disposal issues, instead using Borax Sodium Metasilicate water treatment

The driver manual states that leaks should be reported for immediate repair and the loco taken out of service

The maintenance manual states that all the seals should be removed and replaced and the entire coolant system drained and then pressure tested, and only then should the system be filled with water treatment

 

Equally, the manual states that repeated cold starts will drain the batteries, and where possible the loco should be left idling

If the loco will not be required within the next 24 hours it should be switched off, otherwise it should be left idling

Edited January 2, 2019 by mjkerr

[lapford34102]

Residents complain...

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/2016/06/21/horrendous-smell-idling-trains-dorset-weymouth-residents-complain/?guccounter=1

 

Stu

Edited January 2, 2019 by lapford34102

[royaloak]

Residents complain...

 

https://www.aol.co.uk/2016/06/21/horrendous-smell-idling-trains-dorset-weymouth-residents-complain/?guccounter=1

 

Stu

Since when have GWR left engines idling for 5 hours?

 

They must have a drivers key in otherwise they auto shut down after 15 minutes so something doesnt read quite right about them being left idling EVERY Saturday!

[Titan]

Since when have GWR left engines idling for 5 hours?

 

They must have a drivers key in otherwise they auto shut down after 15 minutes so something doesnt read quite right about them being left idling EVERY Saturday!

 

Does every engine on the set shut down, or is it all but one?

[roythebus]

One of the problems with the current Southern diesel fleet is the auto shut-down mode. A train arriving at a busy London terminus which shuts down can cause untold delays if it goes 'flat battery" in the short space of time it is left idling. My information is hat those units spend more time idling than running under load due to extended station stops etc. 

 

When I worked at KX it was practice for an arriving loco to shut down the engines immediately after arrival for passenger and staff convenience. Deltics could be rather noisy.

 

Older diesel locos don't shut down with the driver's key taken out unless the driver presses the engine stop button. It may be necessary to leave it running for ETH and to keep the compressors running for train air supply.

Edited January 2, 2019 by roythebus

[johnofwessex]

Many years ago I cold started one of the old Newbury engines in MV Balmoral (1949) - in March.

 

Hadnt run since October, no pre heat, sitting in the City Docks in Bristol.

 

Pretty much drained the air bottles and blew all the relief valves, filling the engine room with smoke.

 

Not for those of a nervous disposition

[Clive Mortimore]

I thought the answer was going to be all day Saturday and also all day Sunday if it’s a two day exhibition.

 

Oh I do hope those with TMD exhibition layouts aren’t reading this.

Or until the bloke on the stand next to the TMD "accidentally" pulls out the wrong plug. :nono:

 

It s bad enough at some model railway exhibitions, it must have been horrendous for those living near by. I recall the class 127 as mentioned by Eddie always idling away, the poor residents of Ashburnham Road in Bedford when the carriage sidings backed on to their homes.

[Steamport Southport]

You get used to noise.

 

I used to have a city centre apartment and my then girlfriend asked how I managed to sleep with all the noise. I genuinely didn't understand as I couldn't hear any noise.

 

Late night taxis, people shouting, nightclubs with music, police cars, early morning buses, binmen, delivery lorries, etc. Eventually it doesn't even register.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Canton used to have 3 shifts of drivers and secondmen on Xmas and Boxing day for 'engine warming', which was basically to avoid freezing in cold weather and run the engines for a period each to ensure they'd start when needed on the 27th.  Until I think 1972 there was a train running on both days, the Marshfield Milk clearance.  The men were given a choice, IIRC, of double time and a half and a day off in lieu, or triple time and a half, the usual rate for bank holiday working.  The same regulars used to apply each year.

[Vecchio]

Or until the bloke on the stand next to the TMD "accidentally" pulls out the wrong plug. :nono:

 

It s bad enough at some model railway exhibitions, it must have been horrendous for those living near by. I recall the class 127 as mentioned by Eddie always idling away, the poor residents of Ashburnham Road in Bedford when the carriage sidings backed on to their homes.

 

Even I love my sound locos I agree that a depot with 25 idling diesels is rather annoying. It is bad enough having 4 sound locos running on my small layout. So I can understand somebody who is pulling the plug... or creates a small short circuit...

 

By the way I have my own solution. I switch my hearing aids off....

 

Vecchio

[Davexoc]

On a technical note, why are railway diesel engines not filled with anti freeze? I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale?

And regarding starting-reliable starting ought to be part of good design.

One problem with water treatments is that they are good with some metals, but poor with others. This leads to mixed metal systems not being effectively protected or actually causing corrosion in some areas. I have seen both aluminium and steel being eaten away by the wrong anti-freeze.

 

As for starting, alot of the earlier diesels did not have a starter motor or electric lube oil pump, but had a starting winding within the main generator. This was used to turn the engine over off the batteries and would have to be cranked over until the oil pressure rose enough to open the engine governor, which was tens of seconds if the loco was cold. Only when the governor had sufficient oil pressure would the fuel be delivered. Also the colder the weather, the less oompf in the batteries. The cheat was for someone to press the start button while another assisted the governor on the fuel rack.

 

Dave

[Bucoops]

Used to love cold-starting 03s and 04s  - take the compression off of 7 cylinders. Fire it up. Pop pause pause pop. Put the compression back on a cylinder. Pop pause pop pause pop. And so on. Very satisfying

[pheaton]

Anti freeze also tended to attack the transition rubbers on on sulzers, so you had to have a certain type fitted, in addition unless your liner seals were brand new theres every chance ethylene glycol could find its way past and into the sump.... English electrics were more common for anti freeze than sulzers.... Which is ironic because they absolutely hate cold weather due to being a much lower compression engine than sulzers in fact its widely documented below a cerain temperature a class 56 wont start with 58s fairing little better.

[Mallard60022]

On a really cold weekend Scotland shed bash (from London with the Inter City Railway Society) about January or February late 70s or early 80s, all the loco's in Eastfield Depot were left running, even inside the shed building. The fumes were disgusting and that's why I remember that particular occasion. There were probably others.

Phil 

[Keith George]

 

 

By the way I have my own solution. I switch my hearing aids off....

 

Vecchio

 

That is the solution I use myself, when the wife complains about time model railways take up.  

[russ p]

DRS fitted modified transition rubbers to the 47s and the fleet is antifreezed

[Dunsignalling]

When the Foster Yeoman Class 59s were new, they were never shut down - I think they were designed to tick over with a reduced number of cylinders firing.

 

I recall visiting Westbury on a strike day, and there they were, lined up, locked up and (very quietly) idling away. 

 

Not sure when the practice ceased but it went on for years rather than months IIRC.

 

John

[lapford34102]

 

Since when have GWR left engines idling for 5 hours?

 

They must have a drivers key in otherwise they auto shut down after 15 minutes so something doesnt read quite right about them being left idling EVERY Saturday!

Poor reporting and I probably should have mentioned it. The units involved were HST's.

 

Another link

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14570921._It_stinks_of_diesel__so_you_have_got_to_shut_your_doors_and_windows__/

 

Stu

[John M]

When the Foster Yeoman Class 59s were new, they were never shut down - I think they were designed to tick over with a reduced number of cylinders firing.

 

I recall visiting Westbury on a strike day, and there they were, lined up, locked up and (very quietly) idling away. 

 

Not sure when the practice ceased but it went on for years rather than months IIRC.

 

John

Internationally General Motors locos with 567 & 645 engines similar to the Forster Yeoman Class 59s were generally left running continuously to avoid problems with cold starting and problems with internal water leaks.

 

The 710 engine as used in the Class 66 are apparently designed for use with antifreeze.

 

Apparently some locos were fitted with an engine management system which will automatically re-start an engine when the temperature falls below a certain point http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18512. 

 

There are also are systems where trailing locos are only started and brought on line subject to load and grade.

[Pete the Elaner]

I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale?

 

No, it is a relatively poor coolant compared to water. This is why we mix the 2 in cars.

[Steadfast]

When the Foster Yeoman Class 59s were new, they were never shut down - I think they were designed to tick over with a reduced number of cylinders firing.

 

I recall visiting Westbury on a strike day, and there they were, lined up, locked up and (very quietly) idling away.

 

Not sure when the practice ceased but it went on for years rather than months IIRC.

 

John

The 59/0 and 59/1s are left running unless shut down by a Mendip fitter. Over Christmas they get shut down and tucked up at the quarries, the red 59s come to Westbury and are shut down. Get started every day

 

Jo

[The Stationmaster]

Canton used to have 3 shifts of drivers and secondmen on Xmas and Boxing day for 'engine warming', which was basically to avoid freezing in cold weather and run the engines for a period each to ensure they'd start when needed on the 27th.  Until I think 1972 there was a train running on both days, the Marshfield Milk clearance.  The men were given a choice, IIRC, of double time and a half and a day off in lieu, or triple time and a half, the usual rate for bank holiday working.  The same regulars used to apply each year.

 

Seems you recalled incorrectly

 

RSNC Minute 385 of 19/1/56, from the 1977 issue of the ASLE&F Conditions of Service book -

 

Christmas Day and Boxing Day enhancement - double time plus one day's leave in lieu.

Good Friday - Guaranteed day's pay  plus three quarters time extra on time actually worked, plus one day's leave in lieu.

All other Bank Holidays (only four in 1977) - Guaranteed day's pay plus half time extra on time actually worked, plus one day's leave in lieu.

[russ p]

You never wanted to rostered 23.59 on a bank holiday or a Sunday for that matter

[jjb1970]

Out of curiosity, why did BR never provide diesels with electric heaters and circ pumps along with putting in electrical supplies at depots and stabling points to keep engines warm? Are such arrangements provided today? The cost would be chickenfeed compared with the savings in engine costs arising from thermal cycling from cold start or the fuel used to do nothing other than keep an engine warm whilst doing nothing for engine condition.

[The Stationmaster]

Out of curiosity, why did BR never provide diesels with electric heaters and circ pumps along with putting in electrical supplies at depots and stabling points to keep engines warm? Are such arrangements provided today? The cost would be chickenfeed compared with the savings in engine costs arising from thermal cycling from cold start or the fuel used to do nothing other than keep an engine warm whilst doing nothing for engine condition.

 

Some locos had pre-heaters but I suspect the simple reason was economics - gas oil/diesel bought on bulk contracts by BR was extremely cheap and they were such a large customer they could influence the oil companies to get low prices in order to simply get the business (literally pence, the old version, per gallon in the late 1960s).  So in effect it was almost a continuation of the old days on the railway where labour was cheap so there was no need to replace it with mechanisation etc; fuel was cheap so why bother to spend money on something else?