RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2019 Don't think I've ever had a EE or a sulzer fail to cold start but had a 57 and a 66 in the last ten years and both after following the correct pre- lube procedures, mind the 66 did it itself and still wouldn't start. EE engines to make quite a song dance and pyrotechnics display of a very cold start but normally fire up despite how cold it is. We certainly had problems with Sulzers (in Class 47s) back in the '70s but it usually seemed to be down to the state of the batteries with only two starts in them at best plus our stabling point tended to attract the cold because of its position. Biggest problem with diesel starts I ever came across (and don't forget most were normally left running in cold weather) was with 350s (08s) but they could be bump started with a bit of luck - until the practice was banned as a result of somebody running out of luck and a main works visit becoming necessary for one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2019 A lot of the naughty tricks that were once available to...ahem..."help" an engine start up (such as using a wrench or something to pull the fuel rack open) are no longer doable with modern common rail digitally controlled engines. I hated starting the Mirlees K8 Major engines on RRS Bransfield (of British Antarctic Survey), it was almost a black art to turn the start handle from admit air to admit fuel at just the right moment and speed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 If a 66 has been sat 'cold' for a couple of days the pre-lube sequence can sometimes take up to twenty minutes, at this time of year it means the cabs are still freezing so I often resort to switching the cooker hob on full to take the chill away until the engine has warmed up sufficiently to put the hot air heater / blower on. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2019 I am finding all this information from railway men and diesel engineers fascinating. I know earlier on I said that the DMUs at Bedford were left with their engines on it was the opposite with the locos. Most Saturday's in the late 60s and early 70s I would be seen with my mates at Midland Road station taking numbers. Before catching the bus home we would have a quick look round the loco shed, I cannot recall a loco idling. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I am not sure why there is such emphasis on a shore supply. It is much more common to have diesel powered pre-heaters that don't need a shore supply. All MTU fitted HST's had a diesel powered pre-heater when introduced, and an interlock preventing starting until the coolant temperature reaches 40 degrees centigrade, which takes about 40 mins from cold. The MTU HSTs require a shore supply for the pre heater, the elements and circulating pump are AC the control comes from the loco batteries. Re anti freeze in locos, in the winter period the coolant does have a low level of anti freeze added. All DMUs had full strength anti freeze as did most shunters. The official instruction for running loco engines that were not anti-freezed was if the air temp was below 2C the engine would be run for 20 mins in every hour, but as that used to hammer the batteries (specially air start Sulzers) most depots left them running. Some depots also fired the boilers up and coupled loco up to stop the boiler water tanks from freezing as several classes had heating coils in the late tanks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I guess they must have been updated, either that or my memory is foggy. I was at a ImechE lecture on the conversions, which went in to quite a lot of detail on the design considerations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 We certainly had problems with Sulzers (in Class 47s) back in the '70s but it usually seemed to be down to the state of the batteries with only two starts in them at best plus our stabling point tended to attract the cold because of its position. Biggest problem with diesel starts I ever came across (and don't forget most were normally left running in cold weather) was with 350s (08s) but they could be bump started with a bit of luck - until the practice was banned as a result of somebody running out of luck and a main works visit becoming necessary for one. Ive heard about the 08 bump start procedure mike....but what could actually go wrong ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 Ive heard about the 08 bump start procedure mike....but what could actually go wrong ??? Apparently in the incident which led to the ban a gear wheel reportedly lost rather a lot of teeth/had them mangled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 Apparently in the incident which led to the ban a gear wheel reportedly lost rather a lot of teeth/had them mangled. I've heard of lots of cranks shifting on 08's. Is that related? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Vecchio Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 If you ever tried to start a diesel powered car by pushing it - it is almost impossible. I tried it downhill (16%) in 4th gear. The only thing I got was long black marks on the road.... Why should a 08 be easier to start?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) thats because you are using the wheels to try and crank the engine.... when pushing the two traction motors turn into generators, and with a few "mods" in the cubical (but i seem to recall a knife switch was provided) you can use them to excite the start coils on the main generator making it crank the engine over..... its no more difficult than pushing a wagon..... provided you dont go over the top..... i had heard it got quickly banned but never saw an explanation why......although i do recall having to "rock" an 08 in cold weather because the motac in the gear case had hardened to the point where the wheels wouldnt rotate....i do wonder if that was the cause of the scenario mike described.... cranks shifting is normally due to wheelslip.....not helped by the high gearing in the traction motors....but it would surprise me at all if it happened "during emergency starting" If you ever tried to start a diesel powered car by pushing it - it is almost impossible. I tried it downhill (16%) in 4th gear. The only thing I got was long black marks on the road.... Why should a 08 be easier to start??because Edited January 7, 2019 by pheaton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 The MTU HSTs require a shore supply for the pre heater, the elements and circulating pump are AC the control comes from the loco batteries. Re anti freeze in locos, in the winter period the coolant does have a low level of anti freeze added. All DMUs had full strength anti freeze as did most shunters. The official instruction for running loco engines that were not anti-freezed was if the air temp was below 2C the engine would be run for 20 mins in every hour, but as that used to hammer the batteries (specially air start Sulzers) most depots left them running. Some depots also fired the boilers up and coupled loco up to stop the boiler water tanks from freezing as several classes had heating coils in the late tanks. From what I remember only shunters and DMUs had anti-freeze. Mainline loco header tanks were topped to overflowing at every service from the water softening plant, so the level of protection would have been quickly reduced. Christmas shutdown required one of each trade on each shift to volunteer to come in and run everything up for an hour or so. IIRC there was also a driver available to shunt anything that might require moving for battery charging etc. During the strike in the early 80s I was still an apprentice and on the Southall turn. We still had to turn up and every day we would start all the units on shed, just to charge the batteries. Nothing could be moved, and once the units in the maintenance shed had their exams/repairs completed, that was all we could/would have to do. Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 On a technical note, why are railway diesel engines not filled with anti freeze? I thought it not only acts as antifreeze but as a more effective coolant, and inhibits corrosion and the build up of scale? And regarding starting-reliable starting ought to be part of good design. I've another technical query. I've been lead to believe that cylinder liner glazing (unburnt diesel and lube oil residue) is anathema to diesel engine efficiency, and as proper fuel combustion is handicapped unless under load, aren't you looking for trouble if you leave them ticking over for hours/days? C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I've another technical query. I've been lead to believe that cylinder liner glazing (unburnt diesel and lube oil residue) is anathema to diesel engine efficiency, and as proper fuel combustion is handicapped unless under load, aren't you looking for trouble if you leave them ticking over for hours/days? C6T. Simple answer is yes, but a lot less trouble than if the engine didnt start when needed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
springs branch Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 A couple of cold starts.... 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) I've another technical query. I've been lead to believe that cylinder liner glazing (unburnt diesel and lube oil residue) is anathema to diesel engine efficiency, and as proper fuel combustion is handicapped unless under load, aren't you looking for trouble if you leave them ticking over for hours/days? C6T. Many years ago I worked on a ship where the bow thruster was diesel driven and the engine could also be clutched into drive a large pump supplying a fire fighting monitor. The normal operation of this engine consisted of an hours running entering and leaving port of which about 90% of the time was spent idling. All went apparently well until on one occasion the ship was assisting on a rescue and the engine was required to operate at full load for an extended period whereupon the fuel and oil reside in the exhaust manifold and uptake went on fire. Edited January 9, 2019 by JeremyC 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMG Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Having worked at Reading Diesel depot for about a year in 70/71 I can confirm that locos could be left running for hours. Not so sure about days though, I don't remember any loco being left ticking over for several days..... As for antifreeze not being used, I can't remember for certain, but I am pretty sure it was used. It was always referred to as coolant, which think is the term for ready prepared water/antifreeze. Also plain water causes damage to an engine over a period. Anti freeze has inhibitors in it to prevent that occurring, as well of course preventing freeze ups.. I would be very surprised if it were not used on railway locos. I can check on that of course from my brother who worked on both steam and diesels for many years. Rob Edited January 21, 2019 by RobMG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted January 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 21, 2019 Having worked at Reading Diesel depot for about a year in 70/71 I can confirm that locos could be left running for hours. Not so sure about days though, I don't remember any loco being left ticking over for several days..... As for antifreeze not being used, I can't remember for certain, but I am pretty sure it was used. It was always referred to as coolant, which think is the term for ready prepared water/antifreeze. Also plain water causes damage to an engine over a period. Anti freeze has inhibitors in it to prevent that occurring, as well of course preventing freeze ups.. I would be very surprised if it were not used on railway locos. I can check on that of course from my brother who worked on both steam and diesels for many years. Rob It wasn't raw water, it was treated with Borax. Shunters and DMUs used glycol based anti-freeze, HSTs used a dayglow yellow/green additive which readily showed up leaks around a dirty engine. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 From what I remember only shunters and DMUs had anti-freeze. Mainline loco header tanks were topped to overflowing at every service from the water softening plant, so the level of protection would have been quickly reduced. Christmas shutdown required one of each trade on each shift to volunteer to come in and run everything up for an hour or so. IIRC there was also a driver available to shunt anything that might require moving for battery charging etc. During the strike in the early 80s I was still an apprentice and on the Southall turn. We still had to turn up and every day we would start all the units on shed, just to charge the batteries. Nothing could be moved, and once the units in the maintenance shed had their exams/repairs completed, that was all we could/would have to do. Dave Dave, it was only a very small amount of antifreeze that was added to the coolant that was been topped up, maybe down south you didn't do it but up here we did, it gave the BSM ( borax sodium metasilicate) a blue tinge, some Scottish loco always seemed to a bit more blue!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted January 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2019 Dave, it was only a very small amount of antifreeze that was added to the coolant that was been topped up, maybe down south you didn't do it but up here we did, it gave the BSM ( borax sodium metasilicate) a blue tinge, some Scottish loco always seemed to a bit more blue!. We never bothered, you need about 100 gallons of the stuff to offer meaningful protection in a peak or class 47. Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 25, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Interesting to compare with steam locos; these were kept in steam continuously, albeit not at working pressure the whole time, between boiler washouts, about 10 days at a time for a loco in service. The engine would come on shed off it's job, drop fire and ash, and with the remaining steam in the boiler capable of moving it around the shed, turn, coal and water. It would then be stabled in 'light steam' until it's next duty, when the fire would be built up and working pressure achieved. It takes several hours to prepare a steam loco for service from cold, a point made forcefully and repeatedly by the diesel salesmen in the US in the 40s and 50s, but this is only every 10 working days and under most circumstances a loco in 'light steam' can be prepared for traffic in less than 2 hours. Being in steam continuously is the equivalent, in some ways, of a diesel ticking over, but arguably less wasteful of fuel, as a steam loco in light steam uses effectively no fuel at all and very little pressure is lost unless it has been left for a very long time. The fuel cost is that of bringing her back up to working pressure, for which you must build the fire, but you have to do that in any case. This may go some way to explaining the apparently wasteful attitude of BR in the 60s and 70s, leaving engines running in order to be sure of their availability. And, don't forget, it was dmus as well as locos. Edited January 25, 2019 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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