1989-1991 Intercity Cross Country services in the West Midlands

[mjkerr]

That gives BG/BFK/3xTSO/RB/3xTSO/BFK for the Sussex Scot

Looks like both rakes were short formed, as it should be TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RB-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO

As the Edinburgh set has the RB, the Glasgow portion requires an additional coach to be added

 

The only exception was the Manchester service, which was permitted to run with 3/4 coaches between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Carstairs

This was a great service to take to Carstairs!

On a Saturday morning it was also used to move a Class 47/4 from Manchester to Glasgow, instead of a Class 86, but it did run about 20 minutes late by the time it arrived at Carstairs

[Covkid]

Very broadbased enquiry unfortunately because so much evolved so quickly. I joined XC in Summer 2001 and the first voyager diagram had just started operating. Most were still in production and being tested from Crofton and bit by bit more diagrams were turned over to voyagers. By the time I started I am pretty sure all the LHCS rakes were supposed to be 7 coaches - formed a BSO, 5xTSO, RFO (or whatever 12xx series were). The loco hauled sets were supposed to be 47/8 or 86/'2. A number of 2+7 HSTs operated, and there were 158747-158751 which operated Portsmouth workings and ended up on the Cheltenham-Swindon services based at Tyseley. 

 

Don't remember very much about the north because I was on the south desk but I remember prior to voyagers there were three trains stabled overnight in Hampshire. The HST went to Eastleigh which the two loco hauled rakes stabled on Bournemouth shed. Both the LHCS could work either diagram, one a Liverpool (1M01 ??) and the other a Scotch, whilst the HST worked a serviced up the East Coast possible Newcastle.

 

Voyagers replaced the LHCS and were serviced at Eastleigh, OOC and Three Bridges, OOC had two units overnight running ECS to Reading to start service in the morning, one running direct to Reading, the other diagrammed into Paddington to pick up the RG guard who travelled to Paddington to set the train up. 

 

don't remember a great deal about the South West except Birmingham, Bristol and Plymouth drivers were contracted to run a VWC EHST between Longsight and Laira because that was where the West Coast HSTs were maintained.  These movements ran with anything from back to back power cars up to a full HST set depending on maintenance requirements and were IIRC 5M98 and 5V97 or vice versa.  Those HSTs were for the VWC services between Euston and Holyhead with the odd rotation through Piccadilly.

 

As I said though, this is from 2001 and Virgin were running down the LHCS and HST operations, although the "Challenger" and "Pioneer" 2+5 HSTs came on the scene briefly, as well other TOC summer hires and the class 67 LHCS jobs to Paignton every Summer Saturday one year.     

[mjkerr]

Very broadbased enquiry unfortunately because so much evolved so quickly. I joined XC in Summer 2001

10 years after the time frame in question, although inherited fleet almost unchanged

However, forgot about the Class 158 that operated Edinburgh - Manchester, but again outside of the original geographic request so did not mention it

[MJI]

I remember the following types of trains

 

Sets were usually WR or ER for NESW and MR for NWSW.

 

NWSW were often Mark 1s, but 2A 2C rakes seen as well with Mark 1 RMB

Seen Mark 1, Mark 2B, 2D (ER), 2D E F (WR) for NESW

 

Locos south of Birmingham were a mix of 45, 45/1, 46, 47 and odd 50, 86/2 on NWSW services.

 

Eventually it was HST

[Compound2632]

I remember the following types of trains

 

Sets were usually WR or ER for NESW and MR for NWSW.

 

NWSW were often Mark 1s, but 2A 2C rakes seen as well with Mark 1 RMB

Seen Mark 1, Mark 2B, 2D (ER), 2D E F (WR) for NESW

 

Locos south of Birmingham were a mix of 45, 45/1, 46, 47 and odd 50, 86/2 on NWSW services.

 

Eventually it was HST

 

This would be a bit earlier - I remember 45s at Gloucester c. 1980; they gave way to HSTs on the SW - NE route quite soon after. If you thought HSTs were foul-smelling diesels, 45s stank.

[mjkerr]

This would be a bit earlier - I remember 45s at Gloucester c. 1980; they gave way to HSTs on the SW - NE route quite soon after. If you thought HSTs were foul-smelling diesels, 45s stank.

Agreed, I am not aware of any Class 45 remaining between 1989 and 1991

Equally, Class 50 were quite rare to Birmingham

[caradoc]

Since moving to Scotland in 1984 I have travelled regularly between Glasgow and my home town Oxford, and have seen quite a few changes in the train service ! Some surviving notes from the period specified by the OP:

 

23/11/88

47657 0702 Paddington (PAD)-Manchester Picc (to Coventry)

86245 0702 PAD-Manchester Picc (from Coventry)

 

28/12/88

47620 0702 PAD-Manchester Picc (to Coventry)

86431 0702 PAD-Manchester Picc (from Coventry)

 

24/12/89

86418 0950 Glasgow C (GLC)-Birmingham NS (BNS)

47807 1538 BNS-Paddington (PAD)

 

27/12/89

47806 0815 Brighton-GLC (to BNS)

86260 0815 Brighton-GLC (from BNS)

 

25/05/90

87019 0825 GLC-Poole (to BNS)

47828 0825 GLC-Poole (from BNS)

 

27/05/90 (Sunday)

47823 0930 Brighton-GLC (to BNS, via Worcester and Kidderminster)

87002 0930 Brighton-GLC (BNS-Crewe via Bescot)

47434 0930 Brighton-GLC (Crewe-Warrington BQ via Chester)

87002 0930 Brighton-GLC (Warrington BQ-GLC)

An interesting if rather long journey, obviously 87002 was hauled DIT from Crewe to Warrington

 

01/06/91

47828 0918 Brighton-GLC (to BNS)

87004 0918 Brighton-GLC (from BNS)

 

29/11/91

90011 1608 GLC-BNS

47836 2106 BNS-PAD

 

02/12/91

47814 0918 Brighton-GLC (to BNS)

86231 0918 Brighton-GLC (from BNS)

 

Sorry I don't have more but at the time I was engaged and my fiance did not have free rail travel, hence some journeys were made by car !

[cravensdmufan]

Good information caradoc.

 

Interesting to see Classes 87 and 90 in there too.

[sub39h]

Some absolutely excellent information here. Thanks very much everyone!

 

So would Paddington to B’ham be considered an XC working then? I thought XC workings by definition didn’t begin or end at a London terminus?

[Compound2632]

Some absolutely excellent information here. Thanks very much everyone!

 

So would Paddington to B’ham be considered an XC working then? I thought XC workings by definition didn’t begin or end at a London terminus?

 

Yes, because (IIRC) they were early morning / late evening workings, providing a Birmingham to Reading service when it would be too late to go all the way to Bournemouth (or vice-versa). Going to/from Paddington was an operational convenience, as well as doubling up as an extra Oxford-Paddington service. Very useful trains in my mis-spent youth! 

[adb968008]

On one exceptional occasion two class 73 Electro Diesels made it to New Street having replaced a duff Duff.  It's a tribute to the rugged simplicity of the English Electric diesel engines that they managed to get all that way powered by an engine that was primarily intended for off juice rail shunting and trip working.

 

Just rode behind 2x73’s and a dozen coaches on diesel from Blackpool to Preston a few months back..it was Pedestrian and not linespeed, but they certainly handled it.

It amazes me to think class 74’s with a class 14 engine would be considered sufficient and capable of such feats, daily and reliably in service.., i think too much was expected of some early diesel types.

[adb968008]

I have memories of south /north bound workings behind a 47/8 that was inbound from Preston, via Bolton and Piccadilly to Stockport, where a loco change to an 86 would take place, and vice versa.

Ive several examples of 47’s at Stockport on this including 47831,832,821,541, 527, stock being aircon intercity mk2’s

 

Ive several such pictures, and werent drags (as ive pictures of 86’s/87’s being pulled through Bolton on mk3 drags too).

Amongst these ive got an intercity liveried HST at Bolton too, I certainly have only seen a HST at Bolton on a handful of occasions, but definitely more than once.

 

Times of this would be within 1-3 years of the opening of the Windsor link, around the time 156’s suddenly appeared doing Norwich to Barrow/Blackpool services too.

 

What services would these be ?

Edited January 2, 2019 by adb968008

['CHARD]

By summer of '89, there were still ten Class 50s allocated to Old Oak, and whilst these were nominally allocated to Paddington - Oxford services from memory, they did still appear on 1E63 (?) Bournemouth - York from time to time, deputising for Class 47s, which the booked loco took as far as New Street, working back to the Western via Bristol.

[Compound2632]

By summer of '89, there were still ten Class 50s allocated to Old Oak, and whilst these were nominally allocated to Paddington - Oxford services from memory, they did still appear on 1E63 (?) Bournemouth - York from time to time, deputising for Class 47s, which the booked loco took as far as New Street, working back to the Western via Bristol.

 

Ah yes I remember having to climb up from the low platform at Culham into a Paddington - Oxford, all stations from Didcot. Class 50 in NSE livery along with quite a number of Mk 1s - mostly TSOs but with one brake vehicle near the middle. About 1991 or 2.

 

On one occasion the guard was whistling the song of thanksgiving from Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Compound2632

[sub39h]

Ah yes I remember having to climb up from the low platform at Culham into a Paddington - Oxford, all stations from Didcot. Class 50 in NSE livery along with quite a number of Mk 1s - mostly TSOs but with one brake vehicle near the middle. About 1991 or 2.

Do you happen to remember what livery the Mk1s were in please?

[Compound2632]

Do you happen to remember what livery the Mk1s were in please?

 

I'm pretty sure that everything was in NSE livery, including the Class 121 that was the alternative service to catch.

 

This photo is dated May 89, so before I was using the service - it's a 47 not a 50, but shows the NSE livery, except one vehicle.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Compound2632

[adb968008]

Do you happen to remember what livery the Mk1s were in please?

 

I recall Mk2As from Paddington on these services, Blue/Grey & NSE mixed.

A few years earlier I remember seeing the GW150 Brown/Cream Mk1 set on this route.

[Compound2632]

I recall Mk2As from Paddington on these services, Blue/Grey & NSE mixed.

A few years earlier I remember seeing the GW150 Brown/Cream Mk1 set on this route.

 

It's possible that I'm mis-remembering. The TSOs could have been Mk2s. 

[adb968008]

It's possible that I'm mis-remembering. The TSOs could have been Mk2s. 

 

We might both be right,

 

Although the pictures In my collection are mostly Mk2's.. I did a quick online search online at Oxford and found this picture of a whole NSE rake.. and it's mixed Mk1 and Mk2's.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/2/3/9623.1263843313.jpg

Edited January 2, 2019 by adb968008

[ChrisH-UK]

It's possible that I'm mis-remembering. The TSOs could have been Mk2s. 

 

Or not, Mk1 were released from the Cobbler services to Old Oak, presumably they were in a better state of repair?

[adb968008]

I just pulled out my notes from 1988, and cross compared with 1989 & 1990

no NSE MK1 TSOs were allocated to Old Oak, all the NSE ones were allocated to Euston.

There was approx. 1 rake of MK1 TSOs at Old Oak in the ICHX pool, in Blue Grey.

 

The following Mk1s were allocated to Old Oaks NWRX pool.

 

50 MK1 SKs : 18601/2/3/4/5/8/11/16/22/27/704/6/9/10/14/5/7/27/9/30/75//84/88/9/92/4/805/14/8/75/921/5/31/3/5/6/7/8/40/1/3/5/52/3/5/8/9/67/8/70

  8 MK1 BSKs : 35074*/192/3/6/318*/471/4/5

  5 MK1 FKs : 13308/24/8/9/31

  4 MK2 BSK: 35500/1/2/3*

 

* Blue/Grey

Note other MK1 SKs were allocated to Old Oak, in Blue/Grey but in the ICHX pool.

 

In 1991 this changed and the following NSE mk1 TSOs were now in the Old Oak NWRX pool and continued into 1992:

4846/8/9/52/3/4/62/66/7/73/5/6/80/4/8/91/5/9/4901/5/8/10/3/7/20/3/6/31/3/5/6/40/3/5/50/1/3/5/73/5/80/5/9/90/2/4/5000/3/6/24/39

 

Throughout this period 1st class is MK2 FKs (13xxx) and MK2 BFK (17xxx)

 

My notes stopped in 1993 as I went to Uni and had other things on my mind.

Edited January 2, 2019 by adb968008

[sub39h]

I just pulled out my notes from 1988, and cross compared with 1989 & 1990

no NSE MK1 TSOs were allocated to Old Oak, all the NSE ones were allocated to Euston.

There was approx. 1 rake of MK1 TSOs at Old Oak in the ICHX pool, in Blue Grey.

 

The following Mk1s were allocated to Old Oaks NWRX pool.

 

50 MK1 SKs : 18601/2/3/4/5/8/11/16/22/27/704/6/9/10/14/5/7/27/9/30/75//84/88/9/92/4/805/14/8/75/921/5/31/3/5/6/7/8/40/1/3/5/52/3/5/8/9/67/8/70

8 MK1 BSKs : 35074*/192/3/6/318*/471/4/5

5 MK1 FKs : 13308/24/8/9/31

4 MK2 BSK: 35500/1/2/3*

 

* Blue/Grey

Note other MK1 SKs were allocated to Old Oak, in Blue/Grey but in the ICHX pool.

 

In 1991 this changed and the following NSE mk1 TSOs were now in the Old Oak NWRX pool and continued into 1992:

4846/8/9/52/3/4/62/66/7/73/5/6/80/4/8/91/5/9/4901/5/8/10/3/7/20/3/6/31/3/5/6/40/3/5/50/1/3/5/73/5/80/5/9/90/2/4/5000/3/6/24/39

 

Throughout this period 1st class is MK2 FKs (13xxx) and MK2 BFK (17xxx)

 

My notes stopped in 1993 as I went to Uni and had other things on my mind.

Hmm all of this may explain why I saw a video with blue grey Mk1 in an otherwise Mk2 rake being hauled by a Class 50 at New Street in my period. I had assumed the Mk1 was an SO though!

 

One thing I really love about this period is the patchwork quilt of liveries that made up the trains. Class 50 in NSE hauling Intercity Mk2s with a blue grey Mk1 and a Mk1 buffet. So much diversity! No need for Rule 1, it probably happened in real life!

[adb968008]

Hmm all of this may explain why I saw a video with blue grey Mk1 in an otherwise Mk2 rake being hauled by a Class 50 at New Street in my period. I had assumed the Mk1 was an SO though!

One thing I really love about this period is the patchwork quilt of liveries that made up the trains. Class 50 in NSE hauling Intercity Mk2s with a blue grey Mk1 and a Mk1 buffet. So much diversity! No need for Rule 1, it probably happened in real life!

Whilst NSE was supoosed to be south, they got all over, in 1992 I can see an NSE mk1 allocated to Derby.

But equally Manchester - Blackpool / Southport/Barrow would see NSE mk2’s in the consist, daily.

Mixed rakes were a daily phenonmenon.

 

Only Scotrails mk3’s seemed loyal to their territory, but their 47’s certainly were not.

Edited January 3, 2019 by adb968008

[mjkerr]

Only Scotrails mk3’s seemed loyal to their territory, but their 47’s certainly were not.

Almost all the ScotRail LHCS was loyal to territory, based by depot

As an example I never saw any of the Polmadie (Glasgow South West) coaches on any other routes

[caradoc]

I have memories of south /north bound workings behind a 47/8 that was inbound from Preston, via Bolton and Piccadilly to Stockport, where a loco change to an 86 would take place, and vice versa.

Ive several examples of 47’s at Stockport on this including 47831,832,821,541, 527, stock being aircon intercity mk2’s

 

Ive several such pictures, and werent drags (as ive pictures of 86’s/87’s being pulled through Bolton on mk3 drags too).

Amongst these ive got an intercity liveried HST at Bolton too, I certainly have only seen a HST at Bolton on a handful of occasions, but definitely more than once.

 

Times of this would be within 1-3 years of the opening of the Windsor link, around the time 156’s suddenly appeared doing Norwich to Barrow/Blackpool services too.

 

What services would these be ?

 

In the late 1990s there was an 0550 Bournemouth-Glasgow C service which ran via Manchester, with a loco change at Preston. On 2nd April 1999 for example it was 47854 from Reading (at least) to Preston, and 86244 from Preston. Similarly, on 22nd July 1999 it was 47829 to Preston and 86258 thereafter.

 

(This was when, with a wife and young kids, having a through train was more important than a journey needing changes, even if that was quicker. At Preston me and the kids would get out to watch the loco change, the wife was always worried that we would not get back on in time, but we always did - Using a door in another coach to get her fretting for a bit !)