Brake Vans

[neilkirby]

Hi,

 

Have been tempted by the Siren that is the Hornby Peckett, I am playing around with some plans for an industrial layout. What I have in mind is a small scale operation with wagons being transferred from the factory to an exchange siding on the mainline an unspecified distance away. The company use their own locomotive(s?) for this. My question is would they use a railway company brake van for the journey, or as it will only be at maximum half a dozen wagon would they just rely on the loco with no brake van at all? Now  I know the answer might be 'It depends' so any input on typical practice would be much appreciated.

 

Regards,

Neil

[Barclay]

_{I'm sure there are others out there with much more knowledge of this matter, but my feeling is that Railway brake vans, containing a company employee, of course, would not have been permitted to stray off Company metals. This does happen on my layout but I think it's probably not appropriate. I think your line would use its own 'internal user' vans if it was felt necessary because of gradient, loadings, etc. Interested to hear others' input though.}

Edited January 3, 2019 by Barclay

[Gordon A]

Given that most industrial set ups are operating short trains over short distances I suggest that brake vans would not be used.

Having said that a number of NCB railways operated brake vans.

If your railway has an incline then the loco would be run propelling the wagons uphill chimney first.

 

Gordon A

[Regularity]

Half a dozen of what type of wagons, carrying what kind of load, and are there any steep gradients, and if so, with or against the load?

I presume the run from the factory is on the privately owned “industrial” company, and not with some permission to run over the mainline company’s tracks? Are you talking about the industrial railway using a brakevan of their own, or one from the mainline company? I can’t imagine the latter being the case, although that said, there is probably a precedent somewhere...

 

I know that’s mostly questions, but it is not 100% clear what you are looking for.

 

Here are some other thoughts, based on practicalities.

Lighter loads with a gentle gradient would probably be OK with just the single loco for brake power. Steeper gradients and heavy loads might require not just more brake power, but more power full stop. In which case, because of tight curvature at the factory making only 0-4-0s acceptable, then a pair of locos might be of more use than a brake van. But a 20T loco has twice the raw breaking power of a 10T brakevan, and that’s without the possibilities of a steam brake or the risky business of throwing the loco into reverse.

[HonestTom]

The Port of London Authority railways were an extensive system that was mostly on the level, carrying a large variety of goods. Mostly they didn't use brake vans, except for where they had to work over the "main line" through the Connaught Tunnel. For this, they used their own brake vans, which were obtained second-hand from the main line companies and painted in their own livery. The Longmoor Military Railway also had their own brake vans, which I believe were either Southern pillboxes or BR standard 20 tonners, though I don't know whether this was an operational requirement or just for training purposes. The NCB also had them, and these seem to have been whatever they could lay their hands on.

 

I think in general, they weren't used on industrial lines unless:

1. Extra braking power might be needed

2. Trains ran over main line metals for part of their route

3. There were long trains of wagons being propelled from behind and someone was needed at the front to keep a lookout.

[neilkirby]

Ok that seems to cover it.  For my fictional  line no brake vans required. Thanks to all for your help.

 

Regards,

 

Neil

[Porcy Mane]

If you want to run private brake vans, go for it. It's your trainset. There were plenty of non NCB systems that used BV's but they where well outnumbered by those that didn't.

 

The The Oxfordshire ironstone Company Ltd used Ex GWR brake vans.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/sets/72157689490363736

 

United Steel company's Ore mining Branch had shed loads and in different liveries.

 

 

Manchester Ship Canal used Ex GWR and MR Brake Vans.

 

MSC Brake van 6373 Stanlow 1086 by Paul, on Flickr

 

jgroom_6718_gloucester_11march2012_1c by Jim Groom, on Flickr

 

BV 6374 was in a somewhat different livery to this when it worked on the MSC system.

 

P

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Porcy Mane

[neilkirby]

Hi all,

 

I have started on the layout, and since the theme of the industry is military / munitions, I have changed my mind and  think that a small ex-MR 10t brake would be good for getting certain loads up and down the steep incline (off scene)  otherwise a runaway could have explosive results!

Thanks all for your interest.

 

Neil

 

[5050]

I run brake vans on my small industrial layouts, mainly because I like odd vehicles and because they provide an additional vehicle to have to shunt into the correct position at the end of the train.

 

Gordon A. knows how much interest this adds to the operation.

[Tom Burnham]

Slightly belated response, but the Barrington Light Railway had a brake van (ex LNER maybe - I'm no expert) for the line from the exchange sidings at Foxton to the Barrington cement works.  Here it is in the siding at Barrington in 1970.  Not sure it saw much use, even then, as the main traffic was coal in air-braked hoppers, but presumably it had been used earlier.

[Fat Controller]

37 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Slightly belated response, but the Barrington Light Railway had a brake van (ex LNER maybe - I'm no expert) for the line from the exchange sidings at Foxton to the Barrington cement works.  Here it is in the siding at Barrington in 1970.  Not sure it saw much use, even then, as the main traffic was coal in air-braked hoppers, but presumably it had been used earlier.

Ex-Midland, or possibly early LMS.

[Tom Burnham]

That Midland lot stick their oar in everywhere...

[south_tyne]

On 03/01/2019 at 14:34, Porcy Mane said:

 

The The Oxfordshire ironstone Company Ltd used Ex GWR brake vans.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains-travel/sets/72157689490363736

 

Cracking shots there Porcy. Thanks for sharing! 

[Tom Burnham]

16 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Ex-Midland, or possibly early LMS.

Actually I did write "ex-LMS?" on the slide mount 49 years ago, and I don't think I knew any more about Midland/LMS goods stock then than I do now, so I may have seen some form of identification on it at the time...

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Actually I did write "ex-LMS?" on the slide mount 49 years ago, and I don't think I knew any more about Midland/LMS goods stock then than I do now, so I may have seen some form of identification on it at the time...

There was a very similar 'van on the NCB branch to Littleton Colliery.

[Porcy Mane]

24 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Actually I did write "ex-LMS?"

I think it's a Diagram 1659 now running as Brake van No. 2 on the Bowes Railway. (with side "Windows").