Fish Trains in the steam era - their make up.

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

I have seen many representation of fish trains on layouts both home based and at exhibition.  I have a lot of negs where the photographer described the train as a fish train and I thought I would share part of them on this forum. 

 

Of course the photographer could have been correct but all (bar one!) look like fish trains to me. The exception is the one at the Forth Bridge which might just be a Class C including fish traffic.

 

Basically the earlier the image (see info loaded with each image name) the more wooden bodied wagons and the more non dedicated fish vehicles in the train. None of these trains look much like the long rakes of 'blue spot' fish trains seen on most layouts.  In my opinion even the better layouts are some way away from reality.

 

It would be great if anyone could identify the actual vehicles but many are at very acute angles........

 

Enjoy!

 

Tony

 

 

[Rail-Online]

Well that seemed to work so here are some a little later, there are far more blue spot vans..........

 

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

Why shouldn't ordinary vans be used for fish traffic (which of course they were - in vast numbers)?   The big advantage of teh specialised fish traffic vehicles were basically a higher standard of insulation and possibly facilities in some cases for icing.   Although fish traffic was perishable what they really needed was a fast transit and that was what most fish trains gave, and plenty of small consignments of fish were sent in ordinary passenger train brakevans.

[keefer]

I suppose an important factor in the use of 'normal' vans for fish traffic would be the provision of washing out facilities?

 

An interesting one was the MLVs of the AM8 EMUs, these had one end designated as a fish area complete with drain hole!

 

 

(from the EMU diagram book, courtesy Barrowmore MRG & Clive Mortimore: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BREMUDiagramsIssue.pdf )

 

The photo, Fish10 with D262 - I wonder if it's on the Up main line heading into Inverkeithing? there seems to be an Up loop alongside the train and the train is passing over Inverkeithing East Junction? This led from the ECML to Inverkeithing North Jn. and on to Rosyth & Dunfermline

 

EDIT: a quick google to check the junction gave a link to the full pic on your own site, which already says Inverkeithing East . Oh well, at least i was right after all! https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p766079789/h878E044#h878e044

Edited January 3, 2019 by keefer

[Steamport Southport]

Aren't they LMS six wheel milk vans in photo one?

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

As for Mike's 'small consignments of fish in passenger train brake vans', I can confirm this in the 70s, freshly caught Wye salmon packed in crushed ice in canvas bags were a feature of brake van traffic from Hereford, heading for posh London restaurants.

 

There was still a daily Milford Haven-Paddington fish train at this time, which used to shunt at Canton sidings.  This was a mix of 'blue spot', insulfish, and other vans including some 4 wheeled and bogie NPCCS stock, but the guard rode on the loco by this time.  I do not remember containers being used on this train, which ran as class 6 to 60mph timings, hence had no short wheelbase vans.

Edited January 3, 2019 by The Johnster

[TerrySVR]

I remember a box of fish delivered to Bewdley on GWR railcar for local fish shop.

[Nearholmer]

when I delved into this topic briefly, I came to understand that the LMS used some "fish" trains to sweep-up anything else that might be rated to travel at the relevant speed and needed to go to the same destination, perhaps making the description "perishables" more accurate. I think someone pointed me to a Scotland (Aberdeen??) to London train that regularly conveyed fish, milk tanks from some intermediate point, and parcel vans, for instance, which I use as an excuse to run something similar in 'tinplate land'.

[Rail-Online]

I forgot to add the one at the Forth Bridge which was described as a fish train but may be just a Class C

 

Tony

[Ian Kirk]

The larger fishing ports could justify whole trains of fish traffic. As a boy in my home town of Kirkcaldy I remember the "Aberdeen Fish" which seemed to thunder through the station. If we were on the platform the porters used to tell us to stand well back. Usually Pacific or V2 hauled and I used to wonder how the guard felt as the van seemed to swing back and forward on the end. I have noticed in one or two photographs instances where there are a couple of fitted vans behind the guards van I wonder if this steadied it in some way? The make up of these trains would change as more modern stock became available and the older stuff was withdrawn.in much the same way as passenger trains did.  Early LNER fish vans looked much like ordinary fitted vans, later ones looked the same but were longer vans (12 ft wheelbase) then some (but not all) were insulated and you could tell these by the recessed sliding doors. Then came the "blue spot type"  so a train with a variety of van types could still be a fish train and not just a fitted goods. (Many years ago I produced kits for all of these which later became Parkside)

Smaller fishing harbours like Anstruther, Pittenweem and St. Monans (where I used to have a factory on the Station site) on the Fife coast line did not justify fish trains and fish vans were frequently added as tail traffic to passenger trains. This eventually led to the retention of one steam hauled service on the coast line when DMUs were introduced as I believe they were either not allowed tail traffic or restricted in the load. This was discontinued when they did away with the fish traffic altogether and a group of teenagers from Kirkcaldy Model Railway club travelled on the last steam hauled service Thornton- Anstruther and return neither of  which  had  tail traffic.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

 

I don't think that the "Forth Bridge" photo is a fish train as by that period I would have expected more dedicated fish vans in the consist and there are sheeted opens further back.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Ian Kirk

[Theakerr]

In the early 50s my recollection is that on the Grimsby fish trains just about any fitted van that could be had was used.  Later on it did change but in those early years I suspect there was still a stock shortage resulting from the lack of investment in the war years and immediately after

[The Johnster]

The larger fishing ports could justify whole trains of fish traffic. As a boy in my home town of Kirkcaldy I remember the "Aberdeen Fish" which seemed to thunder through the station. If we were on the platform the porters used to tell us to stand well back. Usually Pacific or V2 hauled and I used to wonder how the guard felt as the van seemed to swing back and forward on the end. I have noticed in one or two photographs instances where there are a couple of fitted vans behind the guards van I wonder if this steadied it in some way? The make up of these trains would change as more modern stock became available and the older stuff was withdrawn.in much the same way as passenger trains did.  Early LNER fish vans looked much like ordinary fitted vans, later ones looked the same but were longer vans (12 ft wheelbase) then some (but not all) were insulated and you could tell these by the recessed sliding doors. Then came the "blue spot type"  so a train with a variety of van types could still be a fish train and not just a fitted goods. (Many years ago I produced kits for all of these which later became Parkside)

Smaller fishing harbours like Anstruther, Pittenweem and St. Monans (where I used to have a factory on the Station site) on the Fife coast line did not justify fish trains and fish vans were frequently added as tail traffic to passenger trains. This eventually led to the retention of one steam hauled service on the coast line when DMUs were introduced as I believe they were either not allowed tail traffic or restricted in the load. This was discontinued when they did away with the fish traffic altogether and a group of teenagers from Kirkcaldy Model Railway club travelled on the last steam hauled service Thornton- Anstruther and return neither of  which  had  tail traffic.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

 

I don't think that the "Forth Bridge" photo is a fish train as by that period I would have expected more dedicated fish vans in the consist and there are sheeted opens further back.

 

2 vans were allowed behind the brake van provided the brakes were working on all 8 wheels of them, and they definitely made life less terrifying for the guard.  Long wheelbase brake vans were permitted to run at up to 60mph, but the ECML's fish and express freights, hauled by pacifics or V2s, were known to interpret this limit a little, um, inventively...

[Ian Kirk]

I seem to recall a film (British Transport probably) which included shots of Aberdeen Fish landing and handling where the narrator said that these fish would be in Billingsgate London early next morning. The trip down the ECML would have had to be pretty brisk to achieve this..

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited January 4, 2019 by Ian Kirk

[Fat Controller]

when I delved into this topic briefly, I came to understand that the LMS used some "fish" trains to sweep-up anything else that might be rated to travel at the relevant speed and needed to go to the same destination, perhaps making the description "perishables" more accurate. I think someone pointed me to a Scotland (Aberdeen??) to London train that regularly conveyed fish, milk tanks from some intermediate point, and parcel vans, for instance, which I use as an excuse to run something similar in 'tinplate land'.

The Western was doing this well into the 1970s; there was a Perishables from Milford Haven (fish) which picked up other traffic at Whitland and Carmarthen. Here's a photo from a fellow Turk:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/richard_davies_collection/6530982109/in/album-72157628358611339/

I believe there is still some fish traffic, carried on a passenger ticket, on the Central Wales line. 

[31A]

I seem to recall a film (British Transport probably) which included shots of Aberdeen Fish landing and handling where the narrator said that these fish would be in Billingsgate London early next morning. The trip down the ECML would have had to be pretty brisk to achieve this..

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

 

 

"Train Time" has some good scenes of fish being loaded in Aberdeen, although I don't think it actually mentions Billingsgate so you might be thinking of a different one?

 

 

From about 6:25.  Brilliant film!

[Bucoops]

This Pathe film has Aberdeen labelled boxes being unloaded at Billingsgate - https://www.britishpathe.com/video/billingsgate-fish-market-3

 

Not a train in sight but the Scarabs are BR owned?

[Nearholmer]

Billingsgate was never directly rail-served, with the traffic coming via the goods depots on the approach to Fenchurch Street and later, once motor lorries were around, depots further out. In another thread, I pointed to a really interesting court case in about 1900, where a railway fish porter was ‘nabbed’ for splitting bags and nicking fish at Leman Street Depot.

 

This gives a really good feel for what sort of a place Leman Street was http://www.stgitehistory.org.uk/media/lemanstreetdirectory1921.html

Edited January 4, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

This is really interesting http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/great_yarmouth_herring_industry/index.shtml

[Fat Controller]

This Pathe film has Aberdeen labelled boxes being unloaded at Billingsgate - https://www.britishpathe.com/video/billingsgate-fish-market-3

 

Not a train in sight but the Scarabs are BR owned?

They certainly are. Amazing how high those crates were stacked. If you want to see the other end of the operation, have a look at the cover of the first volume of Geoff Kent's series, 'The 4mm scale wagon'. There are views of the yard at Aberdeen, with fish being unloaded from all sorts of vehicles, mainly owned by merchants or trawler companies, rather than BR.

[Caledonian]

When I was a lad back in the 60s, my Dad had a boatyard on the river Dee in Aberdeen and as a sideline caught eels for the London markets. These were loaded live with ice on to flat trays which were in turn layered into wooden crates, with the top tray entirely filled with crushed ice. The crate was then loaded on the infamous "Aberdeen Fish" and more precisely what I now know must have been either a BG or a BSK hung on the end of it.

[csiedmo]

Regarding the insulated vans with recessed doors in the OP, is it the case the the ones with external framework are dia 800/801 and those without external framework are dia 134? Or were there other types?

Thanks,

Ed

[tigerburnie]

Several steam hauled fish trains travelled on the Great Central,I recall the evening trains were hauled to Leicester, the first the Hull to Plymouth would change engines and crew at Leicester, in the summer often a Western region Hall or Grange would take this train on to Banbury. Half an hour later another, the Grimsby to Whitland almost always Britannia hauled, would change crews only at Leicester. Colin Walkers "Mainline Lament" shows photographs of these trains.

[Nearholmer]

Why did the GC trains need to take fish to the seaside? Seems slightly like 'coals to Newcastle' to me.

[Fat Controller]

Why did the GC trains need to take fish to the seaside? Seems slightly like 'coals to Newcastle' to me.

Different types of fish- there's been discussion of this before. 

[tigerburnie]

There were 4 fish trains a day scheduled  in the working timetable I have, the first two we used to see, the last two arrived in Leicester just after 11 and midnight, so we never saw those ones, a couple of trains of empties returned the next morning via Banbury. The trains from the East coast ports were carrying Cod during the 1950's and early 1960's.

Edited January 7, 2019 by tigerburnie