TrainController UK price hike

[adb968008]

Short memories we have,

Back in the 90’s and earlier UK products were consistently higher than EU equivalents...anyone remember the “Treasure island” tag Europe applied to UK market pricing.

 

various high profile cases (especially cars) saw prices harmonise more with Europe as restraints on warranties were removed allowing people to shop pan-Europe.

 

Those that forgot may well likely see a refresher in the future.

[Crosland]

15 hours ago, njee20 said:

So by your logic a German living in the UK should be able to buy at the same price as one in Germany, whilst a British ex-pat in Germany has no right to buy at the same price as those living around them? No way that’s right. It’s based on the country you reside in, not the nationality you identify as. 

 

I think there was a poor choice of words. It's where you live, rather than nationality, that is key.

 

A German living in the UK will have to buy at UK prices or buy in Germany for delivery in Germany. A British ex-pat can buy in Germany at German prices.

 

A UK national can travel to Germany and buy at German prices. The classic case of this was (maybe still is?) UK car buyers buying from German dealers, at considerably lower prices, and travelling to Germany to drive the car back themselves.

 

 

[njee20]

Yes, like I say I think we're saying the same thing, which isn't the same as Junctionmad (despite him saying he agrees with you).

 

He's saying it's fine to charge different prices to sell in France and Germany, but not to charge a German living in France more than a French national. That's obviously madness because there's no way of determining the nationality of a purchaser, therefore discrimination would be largely impossible.

What Herr Friewald is doing is discriminating by geographical boundaries despite their being absolutely no difference in the cost to him, as he's providing a digital download. This is in contravention of the EU regulations that Andy shared on the last page. 

 

So yes, in your car example, if someone living in the UK phoned Audi in Germany and asked for their car to be delivered it can of course cost more than if someone in Germany did the same. However, if the UK-resident wanted to go to Germany to collect it then they may not be charged a different price to someone who resides in Germany. These analogies are a little tortured though because there's no delivery component at all with a digital download!

[Andymsa]

22 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

You are selectively quoting the regulations 

 

and you are incorrect , I have explained that the anti discrimination applies to your nationality but not to the nationality of the selling site 

 

 

I dont want to get into a tit for tat argument, but nationality is not the issue. The issue is that the EU is a single zone and selling across it should be in line ( well possible until the 12 April?)

 

but this is fact, I know of an individual that reported mr friewald a few years back where he was selling to the uk at a higher price. This was reported to the eu version of trading standards. The net result was mr friewald had to bring his prices into line across all Eu regions, and the trading standards agreed there was a breach of the regulations and would take action on this. But regardless of if it is a physical item or digital, the price has to be the same, only shipping would have an effect on total price and would be justifiable for a higher price.

[phil-b259]

EU single market rules are not there to:-

 

(i) Force products to be sold throughout the EU

(ii) Force product prices to be the same throughout the EU

 

They are there to promote consumer choice and champion compition - which obviously will have an indirect effect on both the above over time however.

 

It is perfectly legal under EU single market rules for a manufacturer / trader to:-

• Set different prices for retail outlets in different member states despite selling exactly the same product.
• Charge different prices for buyers located in other member states to that where the transaction takes place at the time the transaction occurs.
• To refuse to supply purchasers in selected (or indeed all other) EU member states if it involves items being posted beyond the borders of the state in which the retail premiss or online store is located.

The EU recognises that due to significant economic differences (i.e. average wages etc) between member states it is sometimes necessary for companies to take measures which at first sight restrict cross border trade. To give an extreme example, if we translate this into the sales of a toy like Lego - such restrictions ensure that those living in Greece say, do not find it hard to get the latest sets on release as they are all being bought up by Germans taking advantage of the lower prices necessary in Greece given the significant imbalance of the Greek and German economies.

 

Thus under EU single market rules it would in theory still be perfectly legal for the Lego group to restructure themselves such that they could legally:-

• Prevent buyers from outside Greece from purchasing items through the Lego Greece based subsidiary / website.
• Charge buyers located outside Greece at time of purchase a higher product price (not just higher delivery prices and add currency exchange costs) on a country by country basis
• Refuse to sell to buyers who wanted the products shipped outside Greece.
• Refuse to process non Greece based payment methods (as long as said payment methods which Creek citizens did not have access to them).

However even if Lego did all the above, they could not prevent a German citizen on holiday in Greece, making a purchase with a Visa / Mastercard credit card (given this is an accepted payment method for Grecian domestic purchasers) from the Grecian website and getting the product delivered to an accommodation address in Greece before taking it home with them. Moreover Lego Greece would not be able to force 3rd party retailers from refusing to supply or charge non Grecian Citizens / residents a higher price for Lego products purchased in Greece itself.

 

Now naturally many companies (particularly larger ones) take the approach that selling to customers within other EU states is generally good for business and helps increase profits, so you rarely see the sort of restrictive approach being followed. However if careful attention is paid to the exact details, such practices can be implemented despite the existence of the single market legislation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[njee20]

Again, the Lego example is irrelevant because it’s not a digital download. 

 

A Lego set in Greece may well be cheaper than in Germany, but if someone in Greece phones a German toyshop and says “hi, I want to collect my set” he must be charged the same price as someone from Germany.  

 

More relevant perhaps would be if Lego charged to download instructions - if a retailer is selling them to different member states a person in Greece should be able to purchase them for the same price as any other member state. You can’t say “oh you’re in Greece, that’s €10 more. 

 

We’re not talking different retailers, nor different subsidiaries, nor different physical products. I’m unsure why the irrelevant examples continue to proliferate!

[Andymsa]

Well all this will be pure conjecture soon as we won't be a member of the EU. 

 

Lets  put this more simply, if I order a mc Donald's from Germany I can't be charged more than a german would pay for it, regardless of where it's delivered to but if I happened to order it from  a uk outlet and it cost more than the German one, this would not break the rules, simples. But of course it be cold

 

but the original issue as to the regulations is that freiwald jumped the gun in changing his buying process due to brexit and he wasn't waiting until we left.

 

but it would be interesting how many have not brought his software or even been put off upgrading it due to this change

Edited April 4, 2019 by Andymsa

[njee20]

I’ve certainly been put off buying it by what I’ve read on here. Some people just don’t deserve to be in business. 

[phil-b259]

42 minutes ago, njee20 said:

 

We’re not talking different retailers, nor different subsidiaries, nor different physical products. I’m unsure why the irrelevant examples continue to proliferate!

 

I imagine its precisely because different rules apply to digital downloads compared to physical products and many folk have still to catch up with the finer details of EU single market rules within this sector.

 

IIRC the single market rules regarding digital downloads are relatively new, where as those governing physical products have been in place for decades. Thus not too long ago, what many seem to be saying about physical products also applied to digital downloads.

 

Therefore while its tempting to simply go round saying folk are wrong, a certain allowance should be made for the fact that we actually have two sets of rules at play when it comes to the single market rules -  depending on the nature of the product being sold

 

 

 

 

[njee20]

But we’re talking about a very specific product (Train Controller Software), not a theoretical one. This isn’t a “how does EU pricing regulation work?” thread.

 

The regulations are clear, there are some interpretations on here which are wrong (not yours specifically), sorry. Actually the digital download thing doesn’t really change anything, people just get confused with irrelevant examples and thinking that people are saying things they’re not. It’s easier to consider because there’s no delivery or handling, but the concept is still basically the same if you consider collection instead. 

 

Different retailers may charge different amounts. Hatton’s and Rails can obviously charge differently. Bachmann France can charge a different price to Bachmann UK and Bachmann Slovenia. What one can’t do is charge an amount for a product to be picked up which varies depending on where you are purchasing from. That’s basically it. 

[RFS]

Bear in mind that when you first purchase TC you are sent a licence dongle to your registered address. In other words it is not an entirely electronic purchase.

[Junctionmad]

I’m in the business of selling digital downloads 

 

the new rules since 2018 do not require me to

 

(A) supply the download to every EU country 

 

(B) offer the download at the same price across the EU 

 

what I can’t do is force people to buy through a specific country web site 

 

nor can I discriminate the nationality of the purchaser but the specific web site does not have to suppprt download into that persons country 

( and many copy right licenses often prohibit it ) 

 

hence train controller can have a uk web site and a German one. The pricing does not have to be the same 

 

what he can’t do is prevent a uk national buying on his German website but he can prevent a download into the uk from that site provided  that provision applies to anyone buying on that site. Ie a German In Germany must also be prohibited from downloading it to a uk location 

 

note that such geo fencing is full of issues that the digital directives overlook and verification can be very problematic. 

 

I do do not see how train controller is breaking the digital directives even if I don’t agree with what he is doing 

 

as for the 12 April , 29 may or whatever I just keep humming that iconic eagles song !!!! 

 

 

The dongle sale will of course fall outside the digital directives 

Dave 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Andymsa]

3 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

I’m in the business of selling digital downloads 

 

the new rules since 2018 do not require me to

 

(A) supply the download to every EU country 

 

(B) offer the download at the same price across the EU 

 

what I can’t do is force people to buy through a specific country web site 

 

nor can I discriminate the nationality of the purchaser but the specific web site does not have to suppprt download into that persons country 

( and many copy right licenses often prohibit it ) 

 

hence train controller can have a uk web site and a German one. The pricing does not have to be the same 

 

what he can’t do is prevent a uk national buying on his German website but he can prevent a download into the uk from that site provided  that provision applies to anyone buying on that site. Ie a German In Germany must also be prohibited from downloading it to a uk location 

 

note that such geo fencing is full of issues that the digital directives overlook and verification can be very problematic. 

 

I do do not see how train controller is breaking the digital directives even if I don’t agree with what he is doing 

 

as for the 12 April , 29 may or whatever I just keep humming that iconic eagles song !!!! 

 

 

The dongle sale will of course fall outside the digital directives 

Dave 

 

 

 

He has only one website 

[melmerby]

22 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

He has only one website 

And the purchasing procedure is the same for all.

Only the home address of the purchaser decides the price. All you get is an e-mail licence code from *Freiwald.com. (with new purchases you got a 2Gb USB stick with the licence embedded)

Originally AFAIK all purchases were an equivalent price in whatever currency was used but now there is differentiation based on destination.

My last upgrade was €101 the same as all EU members.

* except now a (IIRC) Digital Rivers unit will be the UK's "supplier".

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by melmerby

[RFS]

The USB stick today comes with the licence key disabled. You have to confirm to Freiwald that the stick has arrived safely. You then get a second licence key via email which activates the stick. Done this way to protect against a stick being lost in the post. Just had to replace my stick which eventually died after 9 years....

[Andymsa]

9 hours ago, RFS said:

The USB stick today comes with the licence key disabled. You have to confirm to Freiwald that the stick has arrived safely. You then get a second licence key via email which activates the stick. Done this way to protect against a stick being lost in the post. Just had to replace my stick which eventually died after 9 years....

 

Just wondering in what way did the stick die. This is something that has concerned me, in that if mr freiwald ceased trading for what ever reason and the stick subsequently went wrong you are stuck with an expensive doorstop. I would ask him this question but I know I won't get a good reply.

[melmerby]

I had a USB memory stick stop working some years ago so I dismantled it and found a dry soldered joint, which when repaired cured the fault.

However some memory chips do I believe have some sort of expect life e.g. SSDs for computers will eventually fail based on the number of writing cycles.

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, RFS said:

 Just had to replace my stick which eventually died after 9 years....

How much did you have to pay?

[bgman]

8 minutes ago, melmerby said:

SSDs for computers will eventually fail based on the number of writing cycles.

 

Life expectancy can be elongated when installing a new SSD.

 

I have just ( last week ) done a new install replacement on my MacBook using an SSD in place of a hard drive.

It is worth ensuring that the Trim support is configured to YES which can affect its operation.

 

I now have an extremely faster system with quicker boot up time.

[WIMorrison]

Also make sure that disk optimisation and de-fragmentation are switched off for you SSD as well as making sure that TRIM is enabled (if your OS and the disc support it) - a decent OS will not do these on SSDs but some OSs will.

 

They don't speed anything up but will stop unnecessary writes and it is writes, as Keith states, that kill SSDs 

[melmerby]

5 minutes ago, bgman said:

 

Life expectancy can be elongated when installing a new SSD.

 

I have just ( last week ) done a new install replacement on my MacBook using an SSD in place of a hard drive.

It is worth ensuring that the Trim support is configured to YES which can affect its operation.

 

I now have an extremely faster system with quicker boot up time.

Windows does that by default.

I have three PCs for various jobs. Two have have had hard disk* replacement SSDs some time ago and the third I built new with one.

 

* I have had several hard disk failures over the years including two of the same make after the same amount of life.

Edited April 10, 2019 by melmerby

[RFS]

8 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

Just wondering in what way did the stick die. This is something that has concerned me, in that if mr freiwald ceased trading for what ever reason and the stick subsequently went wrong you are stuck with an expensive doorstop. I would ask him this question but I know I won't get a good reply.

 

It started a few months ago when occasionally I booted the PC and TC asked for the licence key. Moving the stick to another USB port fixed the problem most times. But then a few days before it died I would be running TC when suddenly all trains stopped and the dialog box came up asking for the licence key. Just removing and re-inserting the stick into the same port seemed to work but then it died completely. The stick was no longer recognized in this or any other computer.  No drive letter assigned at all so I assume it was completely dead.

 

Herr Freiwald did start a topic recently asking people to vote as to whether their railway PC had an internet connection. I assume he's perhaps exploring ways of doing the licencing differently but we'll not know till he announces something.

 

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

How much did you have to pay?

 

I was asked for €15 and checking back through the forum I found other users were charged the same. But when I said I would pay by PayPal his response was "15 EUR is the cash price. The price for payment by paypal is higher, 25 EUR". Needless to say I was not best pleased but felt I had no choice but to cough up - my railway was inoperable at the time.

 

I posted the stick back making sure it was tracked and signed for. It arrived on the Monday morning, but as I had heard nothing by the middle of the following week I emailed again asking about progress. After 2 more days I got this response: "Could you please forward the tracking information of your parcel to us? This would help us to identify it here. Note also, please, that for certain organizational reasons the replacement of a stick may take several weeks".

 

Once again very worried. It's been in his mail room for 10 days and he's done nothing? And it will take several weeks to process? Fortunately the new stick came through the post the following Wednesday having been posted on the Monday (well done Deutsche Post and Royal Mail!). I then had to confirm to Herr Freiwald I had received it, and 24 hours later got a reply with the licence key to unlock it. 

 

I have also splashed out 99p at Ebay to purchase a 15cm USB extension cable: the stick is plugged into that so if I have to move it again I can do so with the cable, so the stick itself is not being unplugged and re-plugged. 

 

But needless to say there is still a concern. All of this replacement palaver seems to have been carried out by Herr Freiwald himself. What if his company goes out of business and subsequently your licence stick fails? Hopefully this won't happen ….

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by RFS

[melmerby]

Hi Robert

 

I have always had an extension cable for the USB stick apart from the first few weeks (I made one myself)

I don't have to unplug it very often so It shouldn't have been a problem anyway but safe rather than sorry.

 

Yes, Herr Freiwald's Business seem to operate a bit haphazardly at times. He hardly seems to endear himself to his customers.

[Andymsa]

3 hours ago, RFS said:

 

It started a few months ago when occasionally I booted the PC and TC asked for the licence key. Moving the stick to another USB port fixed the problem most times. But then a few days before it died I would be running TC when suddenly all trains stopped and the dialog box came up asking for the licence key. Just removing and re-inserting the stick into the same port seemed to work but then it died completely. The stick was no longer recognized in this or any other computer.  No drive letter assigned at all so I assume it was completely dead.

 

Herr Freiwald did start a topic recently asking people to vote as to whether their railway PC had an internet connection. I assume he's perhaps exploring ways of doing the licencing differently but we'll not know till he announces something.

 

 

I was asked for €15 and checking back through the forum I found other users were charged the same. But when I said I would pay by PayPal his response was "15 EUR is the cash price. The price for payment by paypal is higher, 25 EUR". Needless to say I was not best pleased but felt I had no choice but to cough up - my railway was inoperable at the time.

 

I posted the stick back making sure it was tracked and signed for. It arrived on the Monday morning, but as I had heard nothing by the middle of the following week I emailed again asking about progress. After 2 more days I got this response: "Could you please forward the tracking information of your parcel to us? This would help us to identify it here. Note also, please, that for certain organizational reasons the replacement of a stick may take several weeks".

 

Once again very worried. It's been in his mail room for 10 days and he's done nothing? And it will take several weeks to process? Fortunately the new stick came through the post the following Wednesday having been posted on the Monday (well done Deutsche Post and Royal Mail!). I then had to confirm to Herr Freiwald I had received it, and 24 hours later got a reply with the licence key to unlock it. 

 

I have also splashed out 99p at Ebay to purchase a 15cm USB extension cable: the stick is plugged into that so if I have to move it again I can do so with the cable, so the stick itself is not being unplugged and re-plugged. 

 

But needless to say there is still a concern. All of this replacement palaver seems to have been carried out by Herr Freiwald himself. What if his company goes out of business and subsequently your licence stick fails? Hopefully this won't happen ….

 

 

Thanks for the info. Yes I have seen this survey on the forum regarding if connected to the internet. This causes me concern as well as it has been mentioned here and by various people and vendors that he might be winding down these days and let's be honest we are not getting any younger.

 

yes a good and recommend idea using a USB extension especially if you unplug a lot.

[peach james]

There are times I am glad I stuck with 5.0   No Dongle, just a pass code...which I have both electronically and written down.

 

James