Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, RodneyS said:

The Terriers are probably my favourite locos so I will admit to being a 'Terrier nut'.

 

Bachmann managed to correctly represent the recessed tank tops on their E4  and that wasn't a particularly expensive model.

I can't see that a very small recess would add much to the cost of a mould.

Rodney

 

So, the point has been made - tank-cladding led to a recessed tank top and this feature of the prototype has been omitted from the models Hornby have shown us.  I will not 'bang on' about it further, save to add that I have received further information in the form of an unsolicited communication in relation to these posts from a gentleman who had apparently measured the depth of the recess; it was 3/4 inch.  So, subtle.

 

To be fair, many hobbyists seem to apply the 3' rule, i.e. if a detail is not discernible at 3 feet - taken to be a normal viewing distance - its absence or incorrect representation is not considered a problem.  Fair enough.

 

Many will feel that the recessed tank-top falls into the category of Things That Will Not Be Noticed.  I'm not so sure, it's a subtle but discernible feature, not least because, without the lip to the cladding, you cannot replicate the crescent shaped cut-out for the Terrier's tank fillers, which is visible from lower viewpoints, even if it has hitherto gone unnoticed by many. 

 

Out of interest, then, and to pick up on RodneyS point that Bachmann included this detail on its E4, I will conclude on this point with a couple of pictures of the Bachmann model.  I note also that, whereas the tank top is black, the tank cladding is in the body colour.  

 

[Bernard Lamb]

8 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

 

Re: Recess on the tank tops: yeah, until it was pointed out in this thread with super zoomed in photos, I didn't think they were there at all. I won't mind if they're absent from the model =) 

The problem is not the size of the indent/lip/cut-out/notch, call it what you will.

The problem is that the people responsible for the CAD drawings are unaware of how the real thing was constructed.

Such knowledge is not essential I freely admit.

But as an Engineer I do find trying to copy a part is muck easier if you know how the part was originally made and have some insight as to why it was done that way.

As for cost, I am of the school that describes an Engineer as a person who can make something for a £1 that any fool can make for £10.

CAD is very clever and drawings that are available today are beyond any thing that I ever worked with.

The ability to be able to read an ancient drawing still has a place in the modern world.

Before I get jumped on for trying to tell Hornby how to do their job. Working in QC for the world leading company in it's field I did have to approve drawings before they were issued to various companies around the world. I also had a hand in writing the procedures for how drawings should be produced.

I await with interest what actually turns up, but still hold the view I expressed some pages back, that the alternative offering should be better.

Bernard

[JSpencer]

I don't think the price would have changed much - if at all - by including the tank top recesses, the recessed buffers, the correct gaurd irons (but if it was only this as an issue, they are easy enough to replace) etc etc.

 

It is just that we have a list of silly little errors, which I feel is more due to the rush to be out first than to be cheaper. Compare with the 51XX which is not so rushed and has had more time to consider the details - it is still cheaper than Dapols.

 

I will buy both makes, Rovelden and Bodiam will make a nice pair.

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

......... The problem is that the people responsible for the CAD drawings are unaware of how the real thing was constructed. .........

As I understand it - and this might be confirmed somewhere at the start of this thread - 'every' model starts with a laser scan of a prototype ( where available ) and such a scan WILL have picked up this feature which has - somehow - disappeared in the subsequent design process. If the person responsible for converting the scan into a CAD drawing ignored or removed this lip without referring to Mk1 eyeball evidence then he/she can rightly be criticised - but if it was deliberately omitted to simplify tooling ( and reduce the strain on our wallets ) it would be understandable ............ though we're talking about a mainstream Hornby product here rather than 'Railroad' and any such compromises should be kept to a minimum.

[Islesy]

Just now, Wickham Green said:

'every' model starts with a laser scan of a prototype ( where available )...

 

Quite simply, the answer is no.

In my time here, the only locomotive that was scanned was the Class 71. Works drawings, reference photographs and, where possible, survey visits, are how we work on subjects.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, Islesy said:

 

Quite simply, the answer is no.

In my time here, the only locomotive that was scanned was the Class 71. Works drawings, reference photographs and, where possible, survey visits, are how we work on subjects.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

I stand corrected ................... no, what the hell, I'll sit down corrected. 

[90rob]

Email from Hornby   "Great news! Your BR, 'Terrier', 0-6-0T, 32636 - Era 5 (R3768) Pre-Order has now arrived at our warehouse and will shortly be prepared for dispatch."

[jjb1970]

On the recess, I suspect tis may be one of those examples where a model maker is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the 1:1 model the discontinuity caused by cladding is quite subtle and it is apparent that many had never noticed it before. If they replicate it in OO it may end up looking far too heavy and detract from, rather than enhance, the model. Looking at it I suspect the compromise would be to avoid trying to replicate the actual discontinuity and instead maybe mould a subtle seam on the tank top.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

On the recess, I suspect tis may be one of those examples where a model maker is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the 1:1 model the discontinuity caused by cladding is quite subtle and it is apparent that many had never noticed it before. If they replicate it in OO it may end up looking far too heavy and detract from, rather than enhance, the model. Looking at it I suspect the compromise would be to avoid trying to replicate the actual discontinuity and instead maybe mould a subtle seam on the tank top.

 

It will certainly offer an area of interesting comparison between the two Terriers we will be presented with, as, from what I can tell, the recess and the tank filler cut out are discernible on pictures of the Dapol sample seen at Warley last year.

 

This is where I may come to differ with you; on the evidence of the Bachmann E4, the recess is an essential part of replicating the prototype and looks entirely convincing; a fine and subtle detail, and not at all "heavy".  Forgive me, but it reads as if you are rationalising a poor decision by Hornby to make it sound like the best answer!  Taking into account the E4, I would judge that a Terrier model will likely look better with the recessed tank tops than it will without. 

 

We enter into strange philosophical territory if we believe that a detail on the prototype should not be modelled because we had not noticed it before.  To my mind that's a bit too much like saying that it does not exist because we had not noticed it before!

 

Sorry for causing people to notice it, but it's there!

 

I have been sent a photograph by a well-wisher, "courtesy of Zero Zephyrs", I am told, which is pretty clear and, so, perhaps worth an airing for the benefit of any Recess Denyers(!) out there:  

 

 

I must say that I do not think the Hornby model stands or falls on this particular detail.  There are many other details to consider, and the model needs to be judged overall.  One thing is for sure, until the release of the Rails/Dapol model, it must certainly be the best OO Gauge RTR Terrier on the market.  Good news for the Impatient!  I shall wait to see if it remains the best choice in due course.  

 

14 hours ago, 90rob said:

Email from Hornby   "Great news! Your BR, 'Terrier', 0-6-0T, 32636 - Era 5 (R3768) Pre-Order has now arrived at our warehouse and will shortly be prepared for dispatch."

 

Too late to alter the tooling of the model, then, so unless it had already evolved past the tooling used for the decorated sample, it looks like what we've seen is what we'll get. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I have been sent a photograph by a well-wisher, "courtesy of Zero Zephyrs", I am told, which is pretty clear and, so, perhaps worth an airing for the benefit of any Recess Deniers(!) out there:  

 

 

 

 

'Zero Zephyrs' ????????????  You can't mention that name here !!!!!!  Instant excommunication !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Deniers? I thought that related to ladies' stockings - another dodgy subject to discuss.

 

Denyers, perhaps?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[RodneyS]

If a 3/4'' recess which extends across the whole of the top of the Terrier loco side tanks is too subtle to reproduce, then what about the gaps between slates on the roofs of model buildings ?   Perhaps they should just be plain sheet ?

 

The recess was known by Bachmann and is a feature of ALL Brighton locos with this pattern of side tank ( D1, D3, E1, E3 -E6 )

Rodney

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

'Zero Zephyrs' ????????????  You can't mention that name here !!!!!!  Instant excommunication !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Deniers? I thought that related to ladies' stockings - another dodgy subject to discuss.

 

Denyers, perhaps?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Well I certainly don't want to be excommunicated!  The monika means nothing to me, however.  Possibly I may be a little naif in dealing with people using monikas, but then, that is an entirely common state of affairs on RMWeb. 

 

I happen to be relatively well-read on the subject of Terriers because I was asked, I think I can say this now, to undertake some research by a group on RMWeb who were interested in developing a new Terrier model.  I put in a good week's worth of reading up before Rails/Dapol made its announcement, thus rendering the plans of the group entirely redundant! I cannot pretend any particular expertise on the subject, however, and the various things I have posted are based solely on my reading - mainly RCTS, Binnie and Middlemass - and studying the very numerous published photographs.   Unlike Hornby, I have not had access to GA drawings or, indeed, had the chance to clamber over and measure the prototype.

 

Since I have posted here, I have been contacted by those with perhaps a greater familiarity with the prototype than I have and offered (i) a measurement for the tank recess, which I must take on trust and cannot confirm, and (ii) the above photograph, which, whoever took it, seems to speak for itself.  I can only say I am grateful for the further information, as I am always grateful for any addition to my store of knowledge, such as it is. 

 

I tend to have very great regard for the Hornby designers; their output speaks for itself. I am generally in awe of the quality of Hornby's product, which belies the company's much publicised troubles.  As a Hornby researcher has now indicated, the prototype locomotives and works drawings were available for Hornby's Terrier project.  In these circumstances, it cannot surely be down to either the research or the design function that punches appear to have been pulled in relation to certain features of the model we have been shown.   Take - yawn - the subject of this wretched recess.  There is no way Hornby cannot have known about it, so it was someone's decision not to include it and instead to produce the flush tank top that one might otherwise think was derived from an imperfect 'modeller's drawing', but not from works drawings or the real thing.  

 

We might yet see some differences from the samples so far seen.  Where the model does depart from the prototype, some decisions can easily be understood as compromises assumed to be due to tooling costs - it's a very keen price point - other choices are less easy to understand.  Again I would say that producing a RTR locomotive is probably harder and more complex than most of us can possibly imagine. 

 

There are pleasing features to note.  I don't know how many of the myriad variations the Hornby tooling suite will allow, but careful choice of prototype can allow a good match.  For instance, I was pleased with the smokebox on A1X 32636: Picture.  They didn't all have rivets both fore and aft on the wrapper and on the face, but 32636 did and the match is good to see. 

 

Don't forget, we are still getting something a big step up from the current catalogue model.  It seems likely that we will see a solid mid-range, mid-spec model with a keen price point that will suit many.  If the Hornby Terrier was the only game in town, I'd be ordering Stepney.  As it isn't, I'd prefer something more state of the art and am prepared to wait to see the alternative, but that's based on my personal buying preferences and other buyers will have different criteria. 

 

Fair point on the spellin(!); I have made amends.  

Edited March 7, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

Denyers, perhaps?

Request denied.

[Derails Models]

19 hours ago, 90rob said:

Email from Hornby   "Great news! Your BR, 'Terrier', 0-6-0T, 32636 - Era 5 (R3768) Pre-Order has now arrived at our warehouse and will shortly be prepared for dispatch."

 

Indeed we've had confirmation that ours are being packed, we're expecting to see them tomorrow! Fingers crossed!

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, Derails Models said:

 

Indeed we've had confirmation that ours are being packed, we're expecting to see them tomorrow! Fingers crossed!

 

Looking forward to seeing what people think of the model. Maybe you can share a few of your customer views as well.

 

I've got Stepney on pre-order. So that's coming in around 3-4 months later if I am not mistaken.

[truffy]

On 26/02/2019 at 13:04, Ian J. said:

H are aiming their model at a mass market which is less concerned with details as long as the model looks close to prototype, something that arguably could not be said of the old tooling.

In the annual forum awards, I would like to nominate this statement in the "understatement of the year" category.

[woodenhead]

I thought the old model was cute.

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I thought the old model was cute.

 

Undeniably.

 

But let's put it this way, this is "cute": 

 

 

But how closely does it resemble this?

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

 

Don't you just want to scoop him up and give him a cuddle

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

How did we suddenly move from Terriers to a precognition that Hornby have a Great Bear in the works? Whatever, on the basis of what is shown so far, I rather think the new Terrier is 'good enough'. Sooner or later the larger volume producers were going to reach a high tide mark of advance in features and fidelity, and we probably are there now. For continuing gains, look to the boutique productions.

 

16 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Don't you just want to scoop him up and give him a cuddle

Oh no. I think feeding him with terriers until he's reasonably content would be a good start. Never mind tank tops, which have the most meat on them?

[woodenhead]

Interestingly, Rails have just posted that their Pedigree/Dapol is a livery sample stage - that's a big jump from the bits and pieces I saw at Warley - so we should see their versions soon.

 

Looking back at said bits in the thread, I think they may have the recess and then it comes how the buffers sit in the frame to see if it justifies it's extra £20 price.

[GNR Dave]

And 10 mins later Hornby sent an email saying their BR black late crest Terrier was 'imminent', closely followed by Dapol repeating what Rails said in their email.

My inbox is suffering Terrier overload.

[GNR Dave]

Infact the Hornby mail-shot actually says 'In Stock'

[melmerby]

An interesting (or not?) aside from the Hornby website shows that the WCPR liveried version R3528, which is old tooling (and shows it),  is still available at only £4 less than the new tool versions:

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/locomotives/locomotives-by-class/a1x-terrier/wc-plr-0-6-0t-4-stroudley-terrier-class.html

 

One might ask why?

Edited March 8, 2019 by melmerby

[Derails Models]

Lovely little models, they always take me by surprise as to how small they are...!