Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Jack P]

16 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

A reader wrote in to the Railway Modeller a few months back saying that he had spoken to Locomotion and they had told him that they were looking at getting justification to fund the commissioning of a Wainwright D class. I did a follow up saying that I thought that this loco had great potential with a wide variety of liveries and should be a Bachmann mainstream model using the existing C class tender. Someone else also sent in another letter supporting letter after this.

Of course if Locomotion do produce it, it is likely to be very expensive and modellers won't be able to afford maybe more than one, if that

 

This is certainly exciting news! I (and i think many others) would welcome an SECR D with open arms! I do think though, (and i'm sure this has been discussed 1000+ times) the way model prices are going, it's reflective of the end result, from what I understand, the people that purchased the GNR Single were happy with the price for what is (arguably) a more niche model than the D would be. Look at OO Works prices, they produce 'expensive' limited runs and still manage to sell out. I am by no means trying to incite an argument here, but I was actually astounded when I looked at the prices of Continental and US models, $300+ USD for an unpainted brass model is not uncommon.

 

To get back on topic though, I do agree that it is very restrictive if a model is priced as a 'one off' 'big buy', I think Hornby have kind of hit the nail on the head with their terrier there - cheap enough to impulse buy one, maybe two - and if there are more liveries or variations, maybe a couple more!

[truffy]

2 hours ago, Jack P said:

I think Hornby have kind of hit the nail on the head with their terrier there - cheap enough to impulse buy one, maybe two - and if there are more liveries or variations, maybe a couple more!

 

I think they've assessed what the market will bear.

 

The Rails/Dapol/NRM version is ca. 40% more expensive, but that equates to 'only' £30 for what is (or may be, we shall see) a superior model. So, if Hornby had gone much higher they would be relying solely on being first off the blocks for the 'must-have-it-now' market sector.

 

Not that Hornby would necessarily know what the competition would charge, just that there must be some similarities in the market analysis for both to come in within the same ballpark.

Edited April 11, 2019 by truffy
spilling

[adb968008]

Reading all the encouragement of an SECR D class is great, and spawned from my comment...

 

however I now realise my mistake... its an LBSC D class I meant to suggest... a little tank, a bit bigger than a Terrier, just as colourful as a Terrier...

 

 

indeed as a railroad model which is overscale, i’m thinking all they need to do is make their old Terrier into an 0-42T.. see the two side by side second picture down... but a new tooled D would in my mind offer as much and more as a duplicated Terrier.

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/d1(lbsc)_class_01.html

 

however I’ll take an SECR D class, but i’m not sure Hornby would be the one to do it.

Edited April 11, 2019 by adb968008

[Silly Moo]

4 hours ago, hartleymartin said:

Just want to ask if anyone is getting rough running out of their terriers. I've picked one up and either it needs running-in or it doesn't like my old Hornby Controller much.

 

 

 

I think the controller could be the culprit, in my experience new locos don’t always like older controllers and I had to upgrade my controller, the improvement in running was marked. 

[Edwardian]

21 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

A reader wrote in to the Railway Modeller a few months back saying that he had spoken to Locomotion and they had told him that they were looking at getting justification to fund the commissioning of a Wainwright D class. I did a follow up saying that I thought that this loco had great potential with a wide variety of liveries and should be a Bachmann mainstream model using the existing C class tender. Someone else also sent in another letter supporting letter after this.

Of course if Locomotion do produce it, it is likely to be very expensive and modellers won't be able to afford maybe more than one, if that

.

 

I think a lot of us would like to see a D, though the suggestion that Locomotion commission Bachmann to produce one is probably not the best fit for the Hornby Terrier topic!

 

As the happy owner of a Locomotion GNR Atlantic and the Brighton La France, I am persuaded that Bachmann has pedigree here, but I am dismayed both by the extravagant development timetables that still afflict Bachmann commissions and the equally extravagant premiums Bachmann now wants for fully-lined pre-Grouping liveries.  Anyone contemplating the Rails Caley 0-6-0 in lined blue or scanning the distant horizon for a sign of the TMC G5 will know what I mean. In terms of cost, others have produced fully-lined Wainwright livery without exacting extra or significant price pain.  See Hornby H and Hattons P. While not such a spectacular car-crash as Hornby in recent years, my sense is that Bachmann still has some systemic problems and has somewhat lost the plot in some areas.  

 

That said, if the D is produced, I won't mind the price if it reflects a well-researched, accurate and refined model; the sort of effort that this prototype deserves.  I'd suggest that we want something to the standard of the Hornby Lord Nelson, and we don't care if it takes time to get it right. What we don't want is a mid-range effort like the Hornby Terrier. 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Bachmann certainly has a pedigree in this field and has worked in close cooperation with NRM Locomotion.....a connection still active in the appointment of Dennis Lovett in a development/advisory role.As has been documented elsewhere on this forum,Bachmann is currently experiencing production difficulties concerning the commissioning of a new factory in China .Thus it has some ground to cover in catch up.Nothing new there ( I can almost hear derisory groans ) and being lengthy in production time is unfortunately historic.

 

The D is an NRM exhibit yet it seems to slip the net every time for some reason which somewhat mystifies me because it is THE obvious omission in the rtr catalogue.Both big box brands and Rapido are easily capable of bringing it to market.At the moment....the rest is silence.

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its an LBSC D class I meant to suggest... a little tank, a bit bigger than a Terrier, just as colourful as a Terrier...

 

indeed as a railroad model which is overscale, i’m thinking all they need to do is make their old Terrier into an 0-42T.. see the two side by side second picture down... but a new tooled D would in my mind offer as much and more as a duplicated Terrier.

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/d1(lbsc)_class_01.html

 

Whoever might produce such a delightful looking 0-4-2T, I do hope that they will produce some better running models than the last retailer-commissioned 0-4-2T.

 

[Edwardian]

Ah the D tanks. Yes, well, with the (Rails, ahem) Terrier and the Model Rail/Rapido E1, a D1 would be another a logical step.  As would some Stroudley 4-wheelers and the odd goods vehicle. 

 

Many moons ago I opined on the subject of joined-up releases.  If only be accident, we may be slowly stumbling towards that!

[friscopete]

5 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

 I looked at the prices of Continental and US models, $300+ USD for an unpainted brass model is not uncommon.

 

 

300 is  usually el cheapo old brass  which may well need all the upgrades like motor ,gearbox and then DCC and lights  and of course a good paint job .Modern  brass is probably more like 1200 for a little one and 2500  +for a big un

[Jack P]

17 minutes ago, friscopete said:

300 is  usually el cheapo old brass  which may well need all the upgrades like motor ,gearbox and then DCC and lights  and of course a good paint job .Modern  brass is probably more like 1200 for a little one and 2500  +for a big un

 

Heckers!! It certainly makes UK model pricing look good.  Can you imagine the uproar if Hornby had turned around and said they were producing the Terrier from brass, price tag; £800...

[woodenhead]

All this talk of SECR D and LBSC D classes.

 

Has no-one forgotten that there is still a multitude of 4-4-0s of an LSWR flavour to produce before moving on to 0-6-0 and esoteric variations on the x-4-x wheelsets.

 

Enough of this South Eastern bias, the West is best.

[Caledonian]

16 hours ago, Ian J. said:

 

Tooling new versions of either of those locos doesn't preclude Hornby from keeping the older tooling in their range for the youngsters.

 

Exactly so, which is another reason for producing a Peckett quality Neilson/North British puggy rather than the Caley version, to help distinguish between the old and the new

[Ian Hargrave]

28 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

All this talk of SECR D and LBSC D classes.

 

Has no-one forgotten that there is still a multitude of 4-4-0s of an LSWR flavour to produce before moving on to 0-6-0 and esoteric variations on the x-4-x wheelsets.

 

Enough of this South Eastern bias, the West is best.

 

Well each to his own.Do not despair however,relief is at hand.OO Works have a Drummond K10 in preparation.

 

 

 

 

[truffy]

40 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

All this talk of SECR D and LBSC D classes.

 

Has no-one forgotten that there is still a multitude of 4-4-0s of an LSWR flavour to produce before moving on to 0-6-0 and esoteric variations on the x-4-x wheelsets.

 

Enough of this South Eastern bias, the West is best.

Seems to be a deal of LSWR lovage across manufacturers and commissioners already. Not that I bemoan it, they can wander into more civilised, eastern areas. 

[hartleymartin]

4 hours ago, Silly Moo said:

 

I think the controller could be the culprit, in my experience new locos don’t always like older controllers and I had to upgrade my controller, the improvement in running was marked. 

 

This may explain why my J94 isn't running well, but my Bachmann J72 (Split-chassis) just loves my old Hornby Controller.

[Pre Grouping fan]

13 hours ago, hartleymartin said:

Just want to ask if anyone is getting rough running out of their terriers. I've picked one up and either it needs running-in or it doesn't like my old Hornby Controller much.

 

 

Every new model will need running in to bed in the drivetrain. Might be worth checking the pickups are touching the wheels at the extremities if their side to side movement as a friends SR version had issues with the pickups on the middle axle.

[Ian J.]

A note here about the fund raising for two KE&SR Terriers:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/143786-terrier-150-appeal/

Edited April 11, 2019 by Ian J.

[Ian J.]

(Duplicate)

Edited April 11, 2019 by Ian J.
Duplicate

[JSpencer]

On 11/04/2019 at 05:55, Jack P said:

 

This is certainly exciting news! I (and i think many others) would welcome an SECR D with open arms! I do think though, (and i'm sure this has been discussed 1000+ times) the way model prices are going, it's reflective of the end result, from what I understand, the people that purchased the GNR Single were happy with the price for what is (arguably) a more niche model than the D would be. Look at OO Works prices, they produce 'expensive' limited runs and still manage to sell out. I am by no means trying to incite an argument here, but I was actually astounded when I looked at the prices of Continental and US models, $300+ USD for an unpainted brass model is not uncommon.

 

To get back on topic though, I do agree that it is very restrictive if a model is priced as a 'one off' 'big buy', I think Hornby have kind of hit the nail on the head with their terrier there - cheap enough to impulse buy one, maybe two - and if there are more liveries or variations, maybe a couple more!

 

On 11/04/2019 at 10:11, Edwardian said:

 

I think a lot of us would like to see a D, though the suggestion that Locomotion commission Bachmann to produce one is probably not the best fit for the Hornby Terrier topic!

 

As the happy owner of a Locomotion GNR Atlantic and the Brighton La France, I am persuaded that Bachmann has pedigree here, but I am dismayed both by the extravagant development timetables that still afflict Bachmann commissions and the equally extravagant premiums Bachmann now wants for fully-lined pre-Grouping liveries.  Anyone contemplating the Rails Caley 0-6-0 in lined blue or scanning the distant horizon for a sign of the TMC G5 will know what I mean. In terms of cost, others have produced fully-lined Wainwright livery without exacting extra or significant price pain.  See Hornby H and Hattons P. While not such a spectacular car-crash as Hornby in recent years, my sense is that Bachmann still has some systemic problems and has somewhat lost the plot in some areas.  

 

That said, if the D is produced, I won't mind the price if it reflects a well-researched, accurate and refined model; the sort of effort that this prototype deserves.  I'd suggest that we want something to the standard of the Hornby Lord Nelson, and we don't care if it takes time to get it right. What we don't want is a mid-range effort like the Hornby Terrier. 

 

 

I have heard from good sources that another SECR D/Elightful locomotive has a strong probability of appearing from Hornby within the next couple of years.

[JSpencer]

On 11/04/2019 at 10:36, Ian Hargrave said:

Bachmann certainly has a pedigree in this field and has worked in close cooperation with NRM Locomotion.....a connection still active in the appointment of Dennis Lovett in a development/advisory role.As has been documented elsewhere on this forum,Bachmann is currently experiencing production difficulties concerning the commissioning of a new factory in China .Thus it has some ground to cover in catch up.Nothing new there ( I can almost hear derisory groans ) and being lengthy in production time is unfortunately historic.

 

The D is an NRM exhibit yet it seems to slip the net every time for some reason which somewhat mystifies me because it is THE obvious omission in the rtr catalogue.Both big box brands and Rapido are easily capable of bringing it to market.At the moment....the rest is silence.

 

The NRM has quite a few goodies waiting to be caught by a net. Previous Hornby policy was not to do commisions but we have seen changes with the new management. The high cost of Bachmann and others is starting bite, the NRM having some difficulty shifting stock. An SECR C class in full Wainwright livery is close to £200, what then for a D class with all new tooling? Yet other makes (Hornby included) had little difficulty in producing a full Wainwright coloured loco at no price difference to lined BR black!

Personally I suspect a calaberation between the NRM and Hornby. Perfect business sense for Hornby and the NRM to be business partners.

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

18 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

I have heard from good sources that another SECR D/Elightful locomotive has a strong probability of appearing from Hornby within the next couple of years.

  

Decades ? 

[JSpencer]

On 10/04/2019 at 22:43, truffy said:

 

It doesn't matter how much lipstick you put on the pig, it's still a pig.

 

And here we are. Old Hornby (ex Dapol pig tooling) Bodiam vs new Hornby Rolvenden. Paint scheme wise the old is nearly as complex as the new.

 

My perso opinion. The buffers on the new are and look plain wrong and strand out as eyesore to my mind. The black paint on top of the tanks hide's well the missing recess (so not bothered by that). The coal gaurd irons on the rear cab windows is wrong for this loco/time period and does not look easy to fix. The remaining faults don't bother me much but for some odd reason the front sandpipes are poking out to the sides in front of the brake blocks! Easy to tweek though.

 

Performance. The new Rolvenden is not yet run in, and cannot yet go as slow as old Bodiam - but it is quiter. It is bettered by Hattons P in terms of slow performance (all of mine still relatively new) and totally outclassed by Dapols B4 (again my 3 all still relatively new).

She is a fast little engine, not quite as fast as smokey joe but not far from it and would have benefitted from a higher gear ratio with more reduction gears.

 

Some picks comparing old Bodiam with new Rolvenden. Clearly the two cannot be side by side on a layout without feeling you are looking at 2 different classes. A great improvement but maybe rushed and not entirely thought through.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by JSpencer

[atom3624]

Excellent comparison - thank you.

It shows how 'good-yet-flawed' the original - ex Dapol? - one is/was and also where advances have been made - detail, 'rivets', buffer profiles.

 

Al.

[brushman47544]

40 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Excellent comparison - thank you.

It shows how 'good-yet-flawed' the original - ex Dapol? - one is/was and also where advances have been made - detail, 'rivets', buffer profiles.

 

Al.

 

But the new coupling on the other hand creates a greater gap to the wagon/coach than the older, wider, one.

[truffy]

On 12/04/2019 at 20:59, JSpencer said:

other makes (Hornby included) had little difficulty in producing a full Wainwright coloured loco at no price difference to lined BR black!

 

Wasn't that the one that did little more than, or failed to, break even? Or am I thinking of Bachmann?

Edited April 13, 2019 by truffy
spoiling