Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Steamport Southport]

On 09/09/2020 at 11:18, adb968008 said:

Because behind the plate was rust.

Water & dirt captures behind the plate and corrodes both the cab side sheeting behind the plate, and the rear of the plate itself.

 

Removing the plate and putting numbers would have be unsightly, leaving corroded rectangles, pitted by trapped vibrating dirt damaging  cab side sheeting, which even if painted over, still shows through,  same applied to class 52 Westerns.

 

 

looking for corrosion on the rear of plates is one of the tests of authenticity for railwayana, that and vibration wear, removal scarring around the bolts.

 

That was after decades of being in Barry though.

 

No problems removing plates from other locomotives that had them. LNWR, L&Y, CR, NER, etc. Not to mention LNER locomotives like A3s and A4s which often had them removed from the cabsides.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

On 09/09/2020 at 08:01, Sarahagain said:

The terriers inherited by BR from former independent railways, like The Kent and East Sussex Railway, were, it seems, allocated numbers in the SR block, 3xxxx.

 

So, possibly if they had survived longer, maybe the GWR owned examples may also have been repatriated?

 

 

 

 

The remaining one was meant to go to the Southern Region for spares. But they were being withdrawn anyway so it went to Swindon for scrap.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

On 10/09/2020 at 16:44, Steamport Southport said:

 

That was after decades of being in Barry though.

 

No problems removing plates from other locomotives that had them. LNWR, L&Y, CR, NER, etc. Not to mention LNER locomotives like A3s and A4s which often had them removed from the cabsides.

 

 

 

Jason

You can clearly see the corrosion where 60008’s plate used to be here, despite being painted over by BR before going to the US, and it never spent decades in Barry, nor even outdoors..(picture taken in Feb 2001).

Dontforget in Barry, very few had any plates, to have anything to trap water.. they were nicked back in the 1960’s... all its done is exposed, and therefore highlighted over time, the rot process that had already occurred prior to withdrawal.

in works the loco was painted, the plates attached. In service dirt and water got trapped, vibrated by the loco, in effect acting as sand paper against the paint and the plate, for decades. 
 

take your pick of Western pictures here.. none of these were decades in Barry either..., worksplates for other classes too.. 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/scrapyard.html

They all have corrosion exposure where the plates was, at a minimum removed paint, or even worse.no paint which means bare metal was exposed to the elements trapped between the plate & cab side.

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

On 09/09/2020 at 09:53, Hroth said:

 

As a rule GWR locos had cast numberplates and it would have been a bit of a faff to recast them with a regional prefix number. Why they didn't just whip the cast plates off the loco and paint new numbers on, selling the plates for scrap/collectors, I don't know!

 

I think a big part was the attitude of the GWR and then BR(W) - they considered themselves to be different and probably fought against the corporate regime more than more other regions. Names on diesels were frowned upon, but we ended up with "Titan", "Mammoth" etc. the only named 47s for many years. Plates were ordered to be removed, but reappeared shortly after. The 50s were named en-mass, again at a time when few diesels were named. I have even seen it suggested that the Westerns kept their names / numberplates because of the management attitude, rather than the of often quoted cost elements. As noted by Steamport Southport, other regions managed to remove plates / renumber.

 

I don't criticise by this at all, personally I liked there being some variety across the regions.

 

Roy

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[adb968008]

Diesels have been named since new..starting with D1 and ending at D9021..  

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Diesels have been named since new..starting with D1 and ending at D9021..  

 
The first IIRC being NBL Warship D600 “Active” in 1958.Though the EE “Deltic “ predates it.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Additional text.

[Roy Langridge]

8 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
The first IIRC being NBL Warship D600 “Active” in 1958.Though the EE “Deltic “ predates it.

 

Again, a Western engine - as I said they liked to be different.

 

Of course, DELTIC was not BR owned which may have made a difference.

Edit: what I should have said, I used the 47s as an example of a class that was allocated to most regions, yet only the western engine got names.

Roy

Edited September 11, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
The first IIRC being NBL Warship D600 “Active” in 1958.Though the EE “Deltic “ predates it.

i wasn't suggesting D1 was the first or D9021 was the last to be constructed.

i was referring to numerical order !! 

Wasnt 26000 Tommy the first, 1952 ?
 

If D600 was the first BR owned diesel to be named, then its merely continuing steam tradition, certainly EM1/2’s started the tradition, but was DC electric, with 26000 Tommy, followed by D600’s, D800’s, class 55’s, Peaks,  that followed appeared new with names which doesnt flow with “Names on diesels were frowned upon”, but more along the lines of associating names to  passenger locos, which is what Steam was about too for the most part.

Though i’d agree it shrunk in the dark decade of the late 60’s-70’s.

if anything it was AC electrics being named it was frowned on...was any AC electric named pre-tops ?

 

I should caution, I cant find any link to Terriers here, no matter how hard i’m looking ?

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

On 11/09/2020 at 09:42, adb968008 said:

iIf D600 was the first BR owned diesel to be named, then its merely continuing steam tradition, certainly EM1/2’s started the tradition, but was DC electric, with 26000 Tommy, followed by D600’s, D800’s, class 55’s, Peaks,  that followed appeared new with names which doesnt flow with “Names on diesels were frowned upon”, but more along the lines of associating names to  passenger locos, which is what Steam was about too for the most part.

Though i’d agree it shrunk in the dark decade of the late 60’s-70’s.

 

 

The naming of any locomotive was banned at a meeting of the Railways Board on December 7, 1964. BR(W) was the first to break this ban in March 1965 with D1666 'Odin'. they went on to name a total of 18 47s. It is said that even existing names were to be removed and it is thought this is why the 40s lost their names. The Western 47s regularly had their names removed and then reapplied shortly after.

 

The ban was pretty well then enforced until the mid-70s when the decision was reversed.  For example, no more 47s were named until April 78 when a single 47 was named and then in 1979, the Scottish region named all the 47/7s.  A few unofficial names were applied in that intervening period, but most were swiftly removed.

 

The first loco to be officially named after the ban was actually lifted was 87001 in January 76. 

 

Edit: I made an error, 87001 was given special permission, the listing of the ban was officially sanctioned by the British Railways Board in May '77.

 

Roy

Edited September 12, 2020 by Roy Langridge
Typo

[Steamport Southport]

On 11/09/2020 at 00:08, adb968008 said:

You can clearly see the corrosion where 60008’s plate used to be here, despite being painted over by BR before going to the US, and it never spent decades in Barry, nor even outdoors..(picture taken in Feb 2001).

Dontforget in Barry, very few had any plates, to have anything to trap water.. they were nicked back in the 1960’s... all its done is exposed, and therefore highlighted over time, the rot process that had already occurred prior to withdrawal.

in works the loco was painted, the plates attached. In service dirt and water got trapped, vibrated by the loco, in effect acting as sand paper against the paint and the plate, for decades. 
 

take your pick of Western pictures here.. none of these were decades in Barry either..., worksplates for other classes too.. 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/scrapyard.html

They all have corrosion exposure where the plates was, at a minimum removed paint, or even worse.no paint which means bare metal was exposed to the elements trapped between the plate & cab side.

 

Didn't it? 60008 spent well over twenty years dumped outside in the snow in North America. Enduring some of the harshest winters on earth. Don't you remember it had it's valve gear painted silver to protect it and whatever shade of green it was painted in certainly wasn't the one painted by BR. But is that rust or just the marks where the plate was?

 

https://www.gotopcs.net/60008.htm

 

Regarding 4115 you have posted a picture of an extreme example which is definitely post 1990. None of the Barry locomotives were like that when I saw most of them in the 1970s. Before they stopped visits due to parts theft. What you are seeing is the marks where the red oxide undercoat was which has since rusted due to decades of exposure. The rest of the locomotive would have had about ten layers of paint and varnish to protect it.

 

You are also highlighting where rainwater has "got in". I'm not surprised as it's spent decades outside. Please find a 1940s photograph of the same locomotive with rust on it. You can't as it was brand new. Or any GWR locomotive that is rusty (and I don't mean a slight patina of brake dust which is what many mistake as being rust). Locomotives in service weren't allowed to get rusty. 

 

However I fail to understand what any of this has to do with Terriers....

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Besides if there was a problem removing numberplates then please explain the London Transport and NCB Panniers.

 

Can't recall them having any problems with rust. Dirt yes.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Didn't it? 60008 spent well over twenty years dumped outside in the snow in North America.

 

 

What you are seeing is the marks where the red oxide undercoat was which has since rusted due to decades of exposure. The rest of the locomotive would have had about ten layers of paint and varnish to protect it.

 

You are also highlighting where rainwater has "got in". I'm not surprised as it's spent decades outside.

Your agreeing with me, the exact point I was making
locos had decades of exposure...before Barry.

 

Rain water didn’t “get in” To the plate at Barry, because the plates were stolen/sold before arriving at Barry. The rust occured BECAUSE the plate was removed, and would be visible, and need resolving.. The events prior (not painting, oxide paint, being painted around the plate, dirt & water ingress etc, set up this situation to occur once removed... this will start happen to any loco, in or out of service, in days, not decades...

spot where the plate was.. and this one was in steam ..

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/Britannias/7002570037-Built-1952-Crewe/7002570028/i-32RPgMb/A

 

going back to the original point, why not remove the plates.. because they’d need to repaint the whole cab, there would be a residue, marks where the plate was, it wouldn’t be consistent to the rest of the loco... even then.. there’s risk of corrosive actions on the rear of the plate...some worse than others. Even if it was a brand new repaint, only months in service.. removing the plate would leave a mark, from fading / grime alone.

It’s unnecessary expense to deal with.

thanks for the link, Ive contacted SRPS to give them permission to use my image (along with a better resolution copy of it). I can definitely say it wasn’t outdoors for 20 years.. it certainly wouldn’t look that good if it did, neither would the coaches had they sat outside for 20 years.. I was looking through many of the rusted holes in 7808’s tender yesterday... and it’s been undercover & painted for 40 years..

water, coal & oil are corrosive to metal, especially with oppourtunity to get trapped between surfaces, that’s why carriage bracing / ends, metal window surrounds Etc corrode most.. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 12/09/2020 at 14:28, Steamport Southport said:

Besides if there was a problem removing numberplates then please explain the London Transport and NCB Panniers.

 

Can't recall them having any problems with rust. Dirt yes.

 

 

 

Jason

I reckon I could guess where the plate was supposed to be.. 1969..

(not my Image)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2871610275

 

It’s either corroding, or dirt is catching In an indenture where the plate used to be...,But why would there be an indenture - earlier corrosion painted over perhaps ?

 

1971..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/6247457202

I can see we’re not going to agree, so time to move on.

Edited September 13, 2020 by adb968008

[Robin Brasher]

Returning to the Southern Region I have just bought a model of Carisbrooke which looks splendid with British Railways lettering over a lined malachite green base. It remained in this livery until Autumn 1952.  The engine ran very well.  The problem with this locomotive is that it makes the proportions of my older Dapol and Hornby Terriers look wrong.

[Tim Hall]

7 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Returning to the Southern Region I have just bought a model of Carisbrooke which looks splendid with British Railways lettering over a lined malachite green base. It remained in this livery until Autumn 1952.  The engine ran very well.  The problem with this locomotive is that it makes the proportions of my older Dapol and Hornby Terriers look wrong.

That's because they are wrong.......

[railroadbill]

5 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Returning to the Southern Region I have just bought a model of Carisbrooke which looks splendid with British Railways lettering over a lined malachite green base. It remained in this livery until Autumn 1952.  The engine ran very well.  The problem with this locomotive is that it makes the proportions of my older Dapol and Hornby Terriers look wrong.

My way round this is that my new Hornby terrier is LSWR and the old type ones are BR therefore they can't be seen together on the layout without causing a crack in the space time continuum.

Actually Carisbrooke does look rather nice, oh dear...

[bigherb]

I thought the original Dapol one was the A1XL

[Steamport Southport]

I read a long time ago that it was wrong because they used a drawing from a respected source which was also wrong.

 

I think the drawing was also misinterpreted as the old model has aspects of both A1 and A1Xs.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, bigherb said:

I thought the original Dapol one was the A1XL

That would be the LBSC D class.

 

I was wondering about doing a D from a Dapol Terrier, given its oversize but on a little research saw the D was actually quite a lot bigger.. but its very similar to a Terriers shape..just on 0-4-2 form.

[sandwich station]

On 27/10/2020 at 03:45, Robin Brasher said:

Returning to the Southern Region I have just bought a model of Carisbrooke which looks splendid with British Railways lettering over a lined malachite green base. It remained in this livery until Autumn 1952.  The engine ran very well.  The problem with this locomotive is that it makes the proportions of my older Dapol and Hornby Terriers look wrong.

 

Any chance of a photo of both old and new together?

[trevor7598]

6 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

Any chance of a photo of both old and new together?

Pleased to oblige.

I don't have one of the new Hornby Terriers, but the loco on the left is one of the old

Hornby models. The Terrier on the right is the Rails example.

As they both have their origins with Dapol my image is a fair comparison of old and new.

[CUCKOO LINE]

For comparison of new Hornby vs Rails see the Rails Terrier forum pages

[Robin Brasher]

A comparison of my old Hornby 12 Ventnor with my new Hornby 13 Carisbrooke

[Fireline]

I have got the model of Carisbrooke too. Normally, I run a loco for a while, then it goes away in it's box. I just can't bring myself to put that one away. It looks too good!

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

A comparison of my old Hornby 12 Ventnor with my new Hornby 13 Carisbrooke

The new model makes the old look like a caricature of a Terrier. Funny how Dapol at that time made 'very nearly really good models' - I'd put the GWR County of theirs in the same category.