Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

Lamp irons not only too short and too low, but offset to the centre.

 

 

Agreed, and I find these inexplicable disappointments; the Stepney sample had these lamp irons in the correct place, and much better smoke-box door hinge straps and a top lamp iron. 

 

 

I think that Hornby may have introduced anachronistic elements here.  In a later condition Rolvenden is seen with such a smoke-box door, and without the top lamp iron, but she is not in the same condition as the model represents, having replacement non-standard iron brake shoes and a simpler, later K&ESR livery. 

 

Interestingly, though, the wing-plate lamp irons did not move, so the position in the Hornby model, so weirdly divergent from the Stepney sample, appears to be completely wrong.  It is possible that she changed smoke-box door and lost the top bracket before she changed livery, of course, but I cannot for the life of me account for the migration of the wing-plate lamp irons to the position adopted by Hornby. 

 

A minor point that I did not mention was that the pipe from the boiler clack valve on Rolvenden should go straight down, without the backward kink. In this, as in many of the details Hornby has wrong, Rolvenden  merely reflects the standard appearance of A1s at the time.  The backwards bend to the pipe I associate with late-condition A1Xs.  It should be copper, not black. 

 

 

One final point to note is that the valance in the Hornby model looks a little too shallow compared with the prototype pictures. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Edwardian

[Hroth]

Look at it this way:

 

The New Hornby Terrier is priced at the level Hornby has priced Terriers for the past few years.  The only really cheap ones in recent years were the ones sold through the Collectors Club.  So we're getting a superior replacement for the price of an old style one - the WC&P one was still in the 2019 catalogue (though now sold out) priced at £86 ( https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/wc-plr-0-6-0t-4-stroudley-terrier-class.html ).

 

You don't have to buy one if you think the new Dapol/Rails one is going to be superior, at £30 more I'd expect them to be.  Remember too that the current price level is the Hornby-enforced maximum discount that is meant to level the playing field in favour of the smaller retailer.  Come the 6 weeks limit, I'd expect the price to come down a bit (assuming anyone still has some in stock!). rather like the price reductions we've seen for Sir Francis Drake and the Bathtubs.

 

If I'm going to get a New Terrier, it'll probably be a Hornby one, R3782 methinks...

 

[adb968008]

I’m waiting for a comment about the smokebox door handles being stowed in the wrong position.

 

:-)

[Hroth]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m waiting for a comment about the smokebox door handles being stowed in the wrong position.

 

:-)

 

Oh no - the "quarter to eleven" vs "three thirty" controversy now....

 

 

[bigherb]

22 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Agreed, and I find these inexplicable disappointments;

 

 

 

 

We know that, as you keep reminding us. Give it a rest chap.

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Look at it this way:

 

The New Hornby Terrier is priced at the level Hornby has priced Terriers for the past few years.  The only really cheap ones in recent years were the ones sold through the Collectors Club.  So we're getting a superior replacement for the price of an old style one - the WC&P one was still in the 2019 catalogue (though now sold out) priced at £86 ( https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/wc-plr-0-6-0t-4-stroudley-terrier-class.html ).

 

You don't have to buy one if you think the new Dapol/Rails one is going to be superior, at £30 more I'd expect them to be.  Remember too that the current price level is the Hornby-enforced maximum discount that is meant to level the playing field in favour of the smaller retailer.  Come the 6 weeks limit, I'd expect the price to come down a bit (assuming anyone still has some in stock!). rather like the price reductions we've seen for Sir Francis Drake and the Bathtubs.

 

If I'm going to get a New Terrier, it'll probably be a Hornby one, R3782 methinks...

 

 

You see, to me, that shows nothing except that the old tool Terrier  was (i) trotted out for about 15 years after it should have been before a re-tool, and, (ii) that by the end it was obscenely over-priced.

 

I'm not sure that has much to do with what one might expect from a main-catalogue 2019 new tooled product.

 

List price is £20 more for Rails, not £30, BTW.

[Hroth]

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

List price is £20 more for Rails, not £30, BTW. 

 

True, going on what Hornby says on their website, and what Rails are asking for pre-orders.

 

However, you can get a new tooling Hornby Terrier (R3767) for £80 including postage, I was looking earlier, and not from Rails or Hattons either.  Do you think that Rails are going to duck the price of their Terriers any time soon?  So suggesting a £30 difference is reasonable.

 

16 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

by the end it was obscenely over-priced

 

I'll give you that!

 

However, the old-tool Terrier was something that should have been Railroaded a long time ago, to a level that the other Railroad 0-6-0 tanks occupy.

[Ian J.]

Regarding my speculation about the possibility of Oxford having made this Terrier, I'd like to add that I don't think they did any of the research, and maybe even not the development, but they may have been subbed out to for the tool making and production. The CADs seem to show a better model than has eventually been produced, so it looks like Hornby had got some way into doing their Terrier before perhaps handing it to Oxford to finish in their rush to beat the Rails/Dapol model to market.

[truffy]

48 minutes ago, Hroth said:

The New Hornby Terrier is priced at the level Hornby has priced Terriers for the past few years. 

 

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

However, the old-tool Terrier was something that should have been Railroaded a long time ago, to a level that the other Railroad 0-6-0 tanks occupy.

 

And this is the real point, IMO. Hornby has been flogging the old donkey because it was the only ride on the beach.

 

But then they decided to develop a new version, but [fap fap fap]

 

It all went quiet until Sir Simon Kohler rode back in on his white steed determined to spoil the opposition bring an exemplary alternative to market.

 

Some will be happy enough with the Hornby version. Some will be happy(ier) with the Rails version. Some will find fault with both.

 

And most will be happy with a nice chocolate ice cream. I recommend Mövenpick's Swiss Chocolate or, even better, their limited edition Trinidad Chocolate if you can get hold of it.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I'm worried that when Hornby do make a good'un (LN) and it sits at the right price point, it doesn't seem to sell too well.

That is the impression I have got since "Sir Francis Drake" is already on 30% off MRP and has hardly been on sale very long.

Same with the LMS Bathtubs, lovely looking locos but soon on discount.

 

 

Quote

Given how many they'd expect to sell over the next 30 years, and given the need for it to stay the course in the face of a rival product, I'd have made a bit more of a bloody effort to get it right.

 

 

 

I think these two posts sum up a large point of the issue...

if we dont buy super detail, were not going to keep getting it.

The class 66 frenzy suggests people are agnostic to Hattons super detail too.

 

Before we know it, there wont be any need to upgrade the Pug, 27xx Pannier, J52, Hunt, 8f, 20,31,110 etc for another 30 years.. and Comissioners could be put off enough from attempting doing so.

 

i’m staying away from duplication in my collection, I wish we could have had an SECR D class, LSWR H16 instead.

[adb968008]

AIUI the Rails Terrier requires a £30 upfront deposit.

 

That will shield the impact to Rails from the Hornby model somewhat, as canceling is akin to the price difference with the Hornby one, and whilst arriving second, they locked in sales first.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Talking of wonky bits... 

 

 

I love the model, and when in motion I don't really notice the faults, but i wish they'd taken just a little more time and paid a little more attention to detail, rather than "that'll do." A fantastic improvement but half a job, perhaps? 

[Ian Hargrave]

Quality control is Hornby’s seemingly incurable systemic disease.

[Anglian]

Given that the indications are that the Rails version will be the more historically accurate model perhaps the fact that the cheaper Hornby one is not a hi-fi model will actually serve the wider hobby better than if the Hornby one was as good as we're expecting the Rails final version to be. (Arguably the Rails version is already better.) The price range across both brands is such that more people can own a Terrier that meets their individual requirements. I shall be buying the Rail's version – I want greater accuracy and think it worth paying the £30 for that but appreciate there are many who think differently. I suspect the majority of them probably don't even read this thread or perhaps even this forum. If the models were much closer in price and quality, then they might split sales but in this instance I think a clear choice is presented. Imagine had the Hornby one been £30 more, then they really would be in trouble with their version.

All this written I still think it's a great but unavoidable shame, given our laws on fair competition, that we have duplication. Hornby might easily have chosen to remodel their E2 tank instead.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Anglian

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, Anglian said:

Given that the indications are that the Rails version will be the more historically accurate model perhaps the fact that the cheaper Hornby one is not a hi-fi model will actually serve the wider hobby better than if the Hornby one was as good as we're expecting the Rails final version to be. (Arguably the Rails version is already better.) The price range across both brands is such that more people can own a Terrier that meets their individual requirements. I shall be buying the Rail's version – I want greater accuracy and think it worth paying the £30 for that but appreciate there are many who think differently. I suspect the majority of them probably don't even read this thread or perhaps even this forum. If the models were much closer in price and quality, then they might split sales but in this instance I think a clear choice is presented. Imagine had the Hornby one been £30 more, then they really would be in trouble with their version.

All this written I still think it's a great but unavoidable shame, given our laws on fair competition, that we have duplication. Hornby might easily have chosen to remodel their E2 tank instead.

 

Well, I think you have reached the correct conclusion.

 

Despite the ocassional fanboy rudeness trying to imply the contrary, I've never been against this Hornby model - I've just had one with a view to purchase today - and I feel it is a strong mid-range model, good value for the money,  in a market that now has a budget, mid and high range Terrier option. Who'd've thought? If the Rails/Dapol Terrier had remained the only game in town there would have been those less appreciative of its finer points who'd grumble about its price.  For them, the Hornby.

 

And I think that the Rails/Dapol and the Hornby Terrier will each find their place because they'll each appeal to a different segment of the market.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Edwardian

[GreenGiraffe22]

24 minutes ago, Anglian said:

All this written I still think it's a great but unavoidable shame, given our laws on fair competition, that we have duplication. Hornby might easily have chosen to remodel their E2 tank instead.

 

 

At least there's loooooooads of variations of Terriers to choose to produce unlike the 3 Adams Radials Hornby and Oxford duplicated... 

 

Hopefully we won't just see multiple duplicated variants of preserved examples. 

[meatloaf]

Thanks to Edwardian for his in depth look at the terrier.

 

Im a cost conscious buyer and a terrier does appeal to me. Buffers, lamp irons, tank cladding I can live with for the price point, but the wonky chimney would be a step to far for me. Also reports of akward DCC fitting I think its persuaded me to wait on the rails version. 

[Big James]

The main thing is though this will most likely be stocked by the like of the bluebell, KESR and other preserved railways where Terriers are the main stay of the fleet. So for £80 with a discount most likely coming how many of these will pop up on various trainsets that have been purchased because they have seen Stepney or Bodiam. While the rails version is aimed at a different market and will only be available online or through the store. 

 

Big James

[jjb1970]

11 hours ago, Ian J. said:

Regarding my speculation about the possibility of Oxford having made this Terrier, I'd like to add that I don't think they did any of the research, and maybe even not the development, but they may have been subbed out to for the tool making and production. The CADs seem to show a better model than has eventually been produced, so it looks like Hornby had got some way into doing their Terrier before perhaps handing it to Oxford to finish in their rush to beat the Rails/Dapol model to market.

 

I think the real risk is that senior leadership brought over from Oxford may bring the same culture that exists at Oxford. As a shareholder I might welcome that but as a customer I think it would result in my money going elsewhere. I guess it is a business decision whether almost right and maybe good enough trumps getting it right and the sort of anal attention to doing things well shown by companies like Rapido. 

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I think the real risk is that senior leadership brought over from Oxford may bring the same culture that exists at Oxford. As a shareholder I might welcome that but as a customer I think it would result in my money going elsewhere. I guess it is a business decision whether almost right and maybe good enough trumps getting it right and the sort of anal attention to doing things well shown by companies like Rapido. 

But how do you reconcile "the Oxford culture" with what they are actually doing?

The N7 is a big advance on what went before. The J27 seems as though it will be another giant step up the accuracy and attention to detail ladder.

It looks as though Oxford are able and willing to offer a better model than Hornby on a £ for £ basis.

From where I sit it looks as though the culture that existed at Oxford is long gone and it is Hornby that are cutting corners. Very much so with the Terrier that seems to be built down to a price and rushed to meet a delivery date.

Bernard 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I think the real risk is that senior leadership brought over from Oxford may bring the same culture that exists at Oxford. As a shareholder I might welcome that but as a customer I think it would result in my money going elsewhere. I guess it is a business decision whether almost right and maybe good enough trumps getting it right and the sort of anal attention to doing things well shown by companies like Rapido. 

Very true.  But there is also the situation where a 'manufacturer' (or more obvious, and completely upfront about it commissioner) produces something which fits one's modelling interest as well as one's criteria.  At the moment the Hornby GW non-gangwayed stock are the only kids on that particular block and fortunately they are good and reflect recent past Hornby research and development expertise (under the 'big bad manageent apparently).  The large prairie might be a slightly different kettle of fish because good and in depth that the research obviously has been - witness the detail variations they say they will be offering over its life - it might well face competition from Dapol if they manage to get theirs right (they're starting from a long way back judging by the only CAD image they have shown).

 

Now apply this to anything that might appear in the future.  A section of the market is always going to demand hi-fi models although minor errors might well be fixable (such as a detailing kit for the Hornby GW 8 coupled tanks) but if Hornby 'Oxfordise' their standards and yet again rush models into production against possibly limited budgets and they come up against a good hi-fi competitor they will lose out on a chunk of the market and on their reputation.  And reputation could well amount to an awful lot when a company has its brand as its major asset.  I have no intention whatsoever of buying a Hornby Terrier, it simply does not ring my bells as an attractive model which tempts me to go off piste from my normal interests.  But having seen the Locomotion version of the Rails/Dapol model I am very likely to become a customer albeit partly because I do like NRM 'exclusives'  - when they are good.  Hence some I have not bought and never will. But the Terrier is very much one to tempt the moths out of my wallet.)

 

Hornby of course won't mind me not buying one of theirs because plenty of other people will buy it because they're either not as finicky as me or they haven't read Edwardian excellent detail information about the class and his summary of one particular Hornby model.  Sorry Hornby but 'it's good enough and people will buy it' doesn't appeal at all to me as the 21st century rolls forwards.

[90rob]

57 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

Hornby of course won't mind me not buying one of theirs because plenty of other people will buy it because they're either not as finicky as me or they haven't read Edwardian excellent detail information about the class and his summary of one particular Hornby model.  Sorry Hornby but 'it's good enough and people will buy it' doesn't appeal at all to me as the 21st century rolls forwards.

 

Yes well said Stationmaster. I have one of the Hornby ones, and while it is good - it is just not quite there; for me, those Hex nuts spoil the look of  the whole thing. The next one will be from Rails.

 

An odd suggestion though for anyone who like me has a few of the old '20th century' terriers laying around - stick a circle of second radius on a bit of chipboard and pass a terrier on to the grand son/grand daughter - you never know what it might lead to...!

[mdvle]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think these two posts sum up a large point of the issue...

if we dont buy super detail, were not going to keep getting it.

The class 66 frenzy suggests people are agnostic to Hattons super detail too.

 

 

There are 2 main segments to the hobby, those that are price driven, and those who want detailed models.

 

The fact that the segment worried about price are excited about the Hornby 66 doesn't mean there isn't an equal market for the Hattons 66, though the fact that it is a Hattons model may make it more difficult to judge how successful it is or not.

[dibber25]

5 hours ago, 90rob said:

 

Yes well said Stationmaster. I have one of the Hornby ones, and while it is good - it is just not quite there; for me, those Hex nuts spoil the look of  the whole thing. The next one will be from Rails.

 

An odd suggestion though for anyone who like me has a few of the old '20th century' terriers laying around - stick a circle of second radius on a bit of chipboard and pass a terrier on to the grand son/grand daughter - you never know what it might lead to...!

Have you noticed that, on the box illustration (at least of the KESR model), the hex nuts are smaller than the coupling rod boss, while on the actual model, they are bigger than the coupling rod boss. I wonder which got changed in the production models, the rods or the crankpins? 

[90rob]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

Have you noticed that, on the box illustration (at least of the KESR model), the hex nuts are smaller than the coupling rod boss, while on the actual model, they are bigger than the coupling rod boss. I wonder which got changed in the production models, the rods or the crankpins? 

 

Yes, same applies with the late black. Such a shame - just compare  the setup with an 08 and you can see that Hornby can do it if they really want to...