Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, bigherb said:

Leave it on, the SECR only standardised on the SER vacuum brake, the LCDR was an air braked railway and air braked stock would still have been about. Until someone turns up a photograph of 751 newly painted in SECR livery without air brakes it may well have retained them for a while.

 

Or a quote from Bradley RCTS .... !

 

But you have no choice  but to leave them on. 

[bigherb]

5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Or a quote from Bradley RCTS .... !

 

But you have no choice  but to leave them on. 

No, only a picture.

[Pre Grouping fan]

11 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I see your problem.  Thems big 'oles.

 

That is a very useful close-up photo in a number of other respects: 

 

- I do like the Hornby wheels (I've said so before), and here they're nicely lined. Good job.

 

- I assume it's a trick of the light in the photograph, but the pale green wide band in the centre of the lining has come out turquoise! As a style conscious girlfriend of my extreme youth once remarked, "blue and green must never be seen".  Now I finally understand why.

I should say I have painted the tyres of the wheels black. They are blackened metal as standard. Hornby seem to have a phobia of painting the tyres on their locos.

 

I think my phone generally overexposes lighting in pictures which makes the colour look off. My work bench is lit using 2 Ikea clamp on led lights which may not help.

 

The your other points mentioned are hopefully where Dapol/Rails will excel.

[Edwardian]

Well, in the absence of a picture, I would prefer Bradley's text to someone else's guess, but, fortunately, we do have a picture of the RH side of 751, albeit not at a great resolution.

 

Despite what Bradley says, does this not look like the top cylinder of the Westinghouse pump? 

 

 

 

Clearly there are vac fittings, but this looks as if the pump was retained. 

 

Of course the SE&CR had steam reversers that looked rather like Westinghouse pumps.

 

The plot thickens.

 

Based on this glimpse, I think Pre-Grouping Fan can be a little more confident about re-attaching the pump (EDIT: And in Hornby's decision to include it). 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Edwardian

[gz3xzf]

Gents, I have no knowledge of the history, but practical experience with a preserved example, the loco brake on 662 is operated by air (as opposed to steam or vacuum), therefore even if the loco is hauling a vacuum braked train the air pump will still be required.

[Wickham Green]

Indeed ........... and a quick trawl of the interweb found a picture of 'Waddon' in later life as DS680 clearly fitted with a Westy pump.

 

( Fitting a vacuum brake cylinder could be problematic on such a small loco as it's so much bigger than an air brake cylinder.)

Edited May 30, 2019 by Wickham Green
clarification

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Indeed ........... and a quick trawl of the interweb found a picture of 'Waddon' in later life as DS680 clearly fitted with a Westy pump.

 

To be honest I'm not sure anything turns on a BR-era picture (which in any case shows the pump with later fittings than those that would have been there on sale to the SE), as this could easily have been a post-Grouping modification if the pump ever had been removed.

 

The best indication is the picture of her in service on the Isle of Sheppey in the condition depicted by the model. 

 

What struck me is that Bradley does not say that the Brighton removed the Westinghouse gear, which IIRC it might have done for some purchasers, but that it was left to Ashford to do so.  Well, it looks as if Ashford probably didn't after all!   

[Wickham Green]

OK - another quick interweb search finds a shot of her as 680s WITH  Westy pump ..... so a bit closer to SECR days - and I can't see that the Southern would have bothered to find the dosh to reinstate it on an obsolete and non-standard loco.

[Edwardian]

57 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

OK - another quick interweb search finds a shot of her as 680s WITH  Westy pump ..... so a bit closer to SECR days - and I can't see that the Southern would have bothered to find the dosh to reinstate it on an obsolete and non-standard loco.

 

Except they did with Fenchurch and at least one of the LSWR twins.  The point is that the contemporary photograph is the better guide, rather than assuming a late condition feature had always been present.

[mclong]

751 in 1920 with Westinghouse pump.

[Wickham Green]

.......... but that's still not contemporary as it's lost the full Wainwright livery ............................................. DUH !

[Edwardian]

42 minutes ago, mclong said:

751 in 1920 with Westinghouse pump.

 

32 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

.......... but that's still not contemporary as it's lost the full Wainwright livery ............................................. DUH !

 

It is helpful. It's more persuasive than a later view, but I think that the picture of 751 on the Isle of Sheppey does show the top cylinder of a Westinghouse pump.  I suppose the 1920 picture might give comfort to anyone not convinced that this is what we're seeing in the picture below, but I think the picture below does give us the answer. 

 

 

The picture is, I believe, taken at Leysdown on the Isle of Sheppey LR.  Waddon was sold, IIRC in 1903, arriving on Sheppey in 1905. The grey livery seen in the 1920 picture was, IIRC, not introduced until 1915, by which time 751 seems to have left Sheppey.

 

So, this photograph certainly shows 751 in Wainwright livery and probably dates from between 751 commencing work on the Sheppey LR 1905 and 1909, when her boiler was condemned. I don't actually know whether 751 returned to Sheppy in 1910 after her re-boilering. 

 

The point being this is an early photo and, if, as I believe is the case, it shows the Westinghouse pump in situ, I think its safe to assume that it was never taken off.  Bradley's text seems to have been proved incorrect in this respect, though he is correct to state that 751 was fitted with vac braking gear.

 

Hornby have this detail right, therefore.  

[Pre Grouping fan]

Stepney arrived today

A very nice model and like the SECR livery, the attention to detail on the livery is brilliant.

 

 

One glaring error although it may be a tooling compromise rather than intentional.

 

The model is virtually identical to the SECR model in detail variations except it doesn't feature the vacuum exhaust pipe along the boiler.

 

Yet it still has the hole in the smokebox for the pipe (admittedly unless you look directly down on the model its hard to spot), the vacuum ejector and rear vacuum are still present though.

 

Looking at a couple of images, Stepney never had vacuum brakes in this condition so it might be a compromise that they've had to make.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Stepney arrived today

A very nice model and like the SECR livery, the attention to detail on the livery is brilliant.

 

 

One glaring error although it may be a tooling compromise rather than intentional.

 

The model is virtually identical to the SECR model in detail variations except it doesn't feature the vacuum exhaust pipe along the boiler.

 

Yet it still has the hole in the smokebox for the pipe (admittedly unless you look directly down on the model its hard to spot), the vacuum ejector and rear vacuum are still present though.

 

Looking at a couple of images, Stepney never had vacuum brakes in this condition so it might be a compromise that they've had to make.

 

You'll also see the corresponding redundant holes for the vac exhaust pipes on the cab front sheet.

 

There seems to be just one cab - I assume this is limiting the tooling suite to meet the price point - so there are issues for the A1 with both front and rear. 

 

What is good to see is the lower (cast?) segment of the boiler barrel is now in the body colour; the livery sample showed it in the frame colour and it stood out a mile. 

 

Does it have the wash out plugs seen on Rolvenden?

[Pre Grouping fan]

47 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

You'll also see the corresponding redundant holes for the vac exhaust pipes on the cab front sheet.

 

There seems to be just one cab - I assume this is limiting the tooling suite to meet the price point - so there are issues for the A1 with both front and rear. 

 

What is good to see is the lower (cast?) segment of the boiler barrel is now in the body colour; the livery sample showed it in the frame colour and it stood out a mile. 

 

Does it have the wash out plugs seen on Rolvenden?

 

 

Yes it appears looking back at the engine shed blog and the image of the laid out parts, there is 2 short bunker cabs and a IOW cab. The only difference I can see from the rear image see is holes above the windows for the coal rails. There isn't a clear image of the fronts sadly.

 

Yes as far as I can see, the boiler lower section is cast as part of the chassis. And although it cant be seen much at normal distance, is lined to a degree to match the boiler bands.

 

There are washout plugs on Stepney in this configuration:

[JSpencer]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

.......... but that's still not contemporary as it's lost the full Wainwright livery ............................................. DUH !

 

But the question would then be, why did the SECR re-instate it after removing it especially as by 1920, they no longer had any air braked stock and the loco was a sort of Terrier hybrid with a Wainwright boiler by then?

To my mind, there is just one conclusion, the SECR never had the Westinghouse removed. 

Also the picture showing Waddon's left side in Sheppy days still shows the Vaccuum pipe going into the smokebox (something missing on the Dapol one??).

 

BR and SR pictures don't really count as a class of locos always end up swapping parts between them (Waddon lost its non class standard Wainwright features and got back proper Terrier ones in those days).

[Pre Grouping fan]

Another point ive just noticed. There is this pipe with the cranked end at the cab leading to the smokebox on the driver's side. Is this another position of the vacuum exhaust?

 

After taking off the cab to access the vacuum ejector I spotted the coal loads are glued in sadly.

[Nick Holliday]

11 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Another point ive just noticed. There is this pipe with the cranked end at the cab leading to the smokebox on the driver's side. Is this another position of the vacuum exhaust?

 

After taking off the cab to access the vacuum ejector I spotted the coal loads are glued in sadly.

Brighton locos were driven from the left, so the pipe in question is on the fireman's side. At least until grouping, most LBSC locos only had Westinghouse brakes, so no vacuum ejectors. The pipe in question is, I believe, the steam exhaust from the Westinghouse pump. When first built, the steam was exhausted straight down from the pump to the track. Presumably this either frightened the passengers or damaged the permanent way, as they fairly quickly acquire this pipe, so that the steam could discharge into the smokebox. Hornby have got this pipe slightly wrong, as it should come off the pump and loop upwards onto the tank top, and not come out of the cab, as they have done it. When the vacuum ejectors were fitted, they were usually on the driver's side, and were much more substantial, and went through the cab front, as per Dapol's original version.

[IWCR]

Bradley was a prolific writer who produced much good information.

However;  some of this was assumption and has since been proved incorrect.

Whilst he can be taken as a good guide any specific details should be verified from other sources.

Just because his books state something as fact, this  cannot  be taken as 100% correct.

I am aware of one of his books which is being revised & updated and a significant proportion of the information  has  been found to be wrong.

 

Pete

[JSpencer]

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

You'll also see the corresponding redundant holes for the vac exhaust pipes on the cab front sheet.

 

There seems to be just one cab - I assume this is limiting the tooling suite to meet the price point - so there are issues for the A1 with both front and rear. 

 

What is good to see is the lower (cast?) segment of the boiler barrel is now in the body colour; the livery sample showed it in the frame colour and it stood out a mile. 

 

Does it have the wash out plugs seen on Rolvenden?

 

On the Hornby model, Rolvenden does not have any of the Westinghouse gear fitted nor the holes where they would have been. I'm not sure why Stepney is wrong in so many aspects.

At the same time, the rear cab sheet is wrong on both models having BR like versions while conversely the BR ones are like A1 versions.

 

From the models, the tooling is capable of doing these variants correctly, so I conclude that the rush to be first may have lead to wrong parts appearing on the concerned locos.

[Wickham Green]

15 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

But the question would then be, why did the SECR re-instate it after removing it especially as by 1920, they no longer had any air braked stock and the loco was a sort of Terrier hybrid with a Wainwright boiler by then?

To my mind, there is just one conclusion, the SECR never had the Westinghouse removed. ......

Depends exactly what Bradley meant by "It went to Ashford Works for the removal of the Westinghouse equipment " ............ everyone's assumed that he meant the full works whereas clearly it was only the train pipes - and the Westy pump was retained for the loco brakes ( presumably with a proportional valve for operating with vacuum train brakes ) : Was this ignorance on Bradley's part - or just ambiguous phraseology ? ...... we'll probably never know - but does it MATTER ? 

[Ian J.]

One could argue that "It went to Ashford Works for the removal of the Westinghouse equipment" doesn't mean the equipment was actually removed. That's a statement of intent. Had he written "It went to Ashford Works where the Westinghouse equipment was removed" then that would be a different matter.

[JSpencer]

35 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Depends exactly what Bradley meant by "It went to Ashford Works for the removal of the Westinghouse equipment " ............ everyone's assumed that he meant the full works whereas clearly it was only the train pipes - and the Westy pump was retained for the loco brakes ( presumably with a proportional valve for operating with vacuum train brakes ) : Was this ignorance on Bradley's part - or just ambiguous phraseology ? ...... we'll probably never know - but does it MATTER ? 

 

Bradley had access to original sources which seem to no longer exist. To consolidate that into a set of concise books would have been a challenge and equally probably left no time for checking other sources (which would have to be photos).  I guess he wrote what was written in the Ashford notes without thinking the exact detailed implications of each (that doubtless would have demanded a lot of extra research).

The only thing really missing was when did each loco pass through the workshops. It is quite hard to determine whether a particular loco recieved a certain livery unless there is a photo of it. And photos pre WWI are quite rare.

An engine could for example could recieve full Wainwright in 1910, then not get repainted until 1916 and pop out in grey without ever having the simpified Wainwright nor Maunsell paint schemes.

 

[Steamport Southport]

The problem was he never got around to revising the LBSC/SECR/etc books like he did with the LSWR locomotives. I believe they were planned as part of the series.

 

 

Jason

[AGR Model Store]

'Stepney''s in Stock now - https://www.agrmodelrailwaystore.co.uk/Hornby-r3780-terrier-0-6-0t-655-stepney-lb-amp-scr