Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[Ian J.]

I think Rails/Dapol can take an opportunity here to rethink their chosen releases and consider an IoW version in their initial offerings. That might attract some more sales for them. Beyond that, as long they make sure theirs is better than any other release to date, in any scale, (including this Hornby one), then they'll have my money. If they don't and there are a sufficient number of flaws, then it'll be a case of comparing the two once both are released and whichever is closest to prototype will get my money.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Ian J.

[JSpencer]

Isn’t collusion illegal?

 

Its Illegal yes but subjective. If they were working togethor to fix a price but here it was probably more a case of "We are also doing the 117 and could probably get a better model to market sooner than your current supplier, if you like, we will make you a proposal and you can take it or leave it."

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Isn’t collusion illegal?

 Only if there is intent between the parties to gain advantage by some secret and illegal act(s) or agreement(s), typically fabrication of evidence, fraudulent or anticompetitive behaviour. Not a word to be waved around lightly in short.

[Edwardian]

I don't know, superficially these do look the business, I confess I was quite excited and only a few points immediately struck me. A second look and further points emerge. Yesterday I pre-ordered the Rails/Dapol version and my enthusiasm for the Hornby rival continues to cool. Hornby's seems not a bad model, indeed, I think it's a good one, but probably not a great one. I doubt it will be the last word in OO gauge Terriers.

 

It's a cheaper model, but, then, it has the look of a cheaper job. When Hornby can produce utter gems like the Pecketts, it is hard to get enthusiastic about a relatively crude Terrier with an old 3-pole motor.  

 

Generally they are good representations of the A1 and A1X conditions, but affecting the models generally, the chimneys look wrong for the A1 and the tanks are wrong for the A1X. The A1s should not have the front buffer mounted lamp irons, yet the smoke box lamp iron is missing on Rolvenden (EDIT: seems to have been removed at some point, but the picture in Middlemass in the Hornby livery clearly shows the smoke box lamp iron in situ).

 

The moulded guard irons are utterly wrong and dreadfully crude. They really let the models down, in my view.  The wheels are shiny, not blackened.  The buffer guides lack their front collar (this is fairly prominent and even the old Dapol/Hornby OO tooling managed to include it!).

 

The coal rails/window grill for Rolvenden are wrong.

 

It's still a great step forward from the old OO model. It does not lack detail. Some details are pleasing. I was particularly pleased to see the bolts fixing the base of the chimney.  This is a nice touch, but rather offset by the shape of the chimney, which does not look right for the Stroudley pattern. Other details are more questionable; the cylinder lubricators (the brass items located on the wingplates) extend far too far forward. 

 

In terms of the decoration, there is a lot of shiny black plastic on display, which reminds me of my cherished old childhood Nellie. Perhaps the pictures give a misleading impression, an almost toy-like quality. 

 

The black splasher on the Southern version is surely wrong. Overall the application of the livery is cursory, almost reduced Railroad lining standard, in places. Look at the valance/buffer guide/guard iron lining at the front end of SE&CR 751, for instance. Compare Hornby's treatment with the picture of the prototype and with the Rails graphic.  

 

Generally I like the rendering of IEG on Stepney; it's a good colour and I am sure it will be a nice crisp print.  I also like the condition, particularly going for the duplicate list number. A great choice.  However, once again, attention to the livery appears to tail off once we go below the running plate.  While very good to see the Brighton shed indicator on the front of the valance (applied from 1884 IIRC) and a really nice touch, though perhaps it should be a little further forward, we only seem to get a simplified version of the lining and again no lining to the buffer guides. Again, compare with the Rails/Dapol graphic for Boxhill.  

 

Are these models as good as they could be? Based on the pictures Hornby has released, I do not honestly think this can be claimed to be Hornby's best work, which is a pity given the Terrier is such a popular and charismatic subject and has been "owed" an upgrade for some time. Is this a result of a rush to spike Rails/Dapol?

 

If so, I think I'd prefer to see Hornby take its time getting a fresh subject right and matching previous quality, not pulling its punches in an attempt to best a rival, which I doubt it will achieve in this case.

 

The Peckett W4 is a perfect plum of a model and I am delighted with the latest liveries.  i cannot ever "need" more than one, but I will keep on buying them!  From what I have seen, I doubt I will feel the same way about the Hornby Terrier when it arrives for all its strengths.    

 

That said, as ever, final judgment must be reserved until we see the thing in the flesh.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Edwardian

[Pre Grouping fan]

Regarding the shiny black plastic. Bear n mind these are CAD renders and not actual models

[Edwardian]

Regarding the shiny black plastic. Bear n mind these are CAD renders and not actual models

 

Good point; I was wondering that, and I hope the model will be better in the flesh.  That and blacking the wheels and rods will go a long way to improving the overall look, so, yes, what we get might look better than what we've seen.  Fingers crossed!

[Hal Nail]

Only if there is intent between the parties to gain advantage by some secret and illegal act(s) or agreement(s), typically fabrication of evidence, fraudulent or anticompetitive behaviour. Not a word to be waved around lightly in short.

Thanks. I may have used the wrong word then but basically in the context I was replying to, I thought manufacturers were not allowed to discuss their new releases with each other, hence duplication happens by accident rather than deliberate competition?

Edited January 9, 2019 by Hal Nail

[JSpencer]

Good point; I was wondering that, and I hope the model will be better in the flesh.  That and blacking the wheels and rods will go a long way to improving the overall look, so, yes, what we get might look better than what we've seen.  Fingers crossed!

If they renderings then maybe there is hope they will sort out the chimney, buffer lamp irons and guard irons on the A1.

Currently my preference is the A1X from Hornby but only because of the chimney on Dapol's O gauge version, and the A1 from rails but only because of the renderings letting various front end items on Hornby's version.

Like everyone else, that preference can change as and when more details or the final models come out.

[sem34090]

I think it's best for everyone to reserve judgement until at least the emergence of the first physical models, be those E.P's or Decorated Samples or even Production Samples. The images shown are very clearly CAD renderings and it's perfectly possible that they could be early CAD images prepared right back at the start of the development process!

[ruggedpeak]

Thanks. I may have used the wrong word then but basically in the context I was replying to, I thought manufacturers were not allowed to discuss their new releases with each other, hence duplication happens by accident rather than deliberate competition?

Government advice makes it sound as if the slightest conversation is a serious offence. It says you can't tell retailers what to charge for a product, despite model railway and many other manufacturers setting limits on discounts etc and that being perfectly legal. 

 

Model manufacturers trying to avoid duplication is highly unlikely to be anti-competitive or illegal. Indeed we know it goes on in other European markets to avoid the sort of issues we have had over here.

[RichardLong]

I have been viewing this with interest. Looking very good.

 

 

Obviously when they do more models such as the Isle of Wight pre-grouping versions they will need to produce an enlarged bunker, but that should not prove too difficult if they make the cab/bunker section as a separate moulding as on the original Dapol version. If they produce another LSWR one however, they will also need a different chimney and safety valves and I imagine that this will also be applicable to some other versions.

 

RB

If either manufacturer decides to do a pre-grouping IOW Terrier (which would be fantastic) they wouldn't necessarily need to produce an enlarged bunker version as all of the IWCR Terriers ran for a number of years before the bunker extension was introduced.

[9402 Fredrick]

Funny enough, one of the pages in the last decade of british railways steam book (I've had it sonce bout 2014/5 I want to say.) has a picture of 32636 (aka Fenchurch) on an RCTS rail tour with E6 32418 at Brighton Railway Station, so there's one big reason for me to pre-order R3768.

[wainwright1]

If either manufacturer decides to do a pre-grouping IOW Terrier (which would be fantastic) they wouldn't necessarily need to produce an enlarged bunker version as all of the IWCR Terriers ran for a number of years before the bunker extension was introduced.

 

The enlarged bunkers on the Isle of Wight were not started by the Southern Railway. There is a picture of one of the Isle of Wight Central Terriers in the later black livery sporting one. However, I am not sure if they all had this modification before the grouping. It is quite possible that the IoWCR ones ran in red and black livery before the bunkers were altered and I do not think that the Freshwater Yarmouth and Newport one was altered before 1923.

So plenty of scope for the manufacturers. The more the merrier. I look forward to adding some of these to my collection.

RB

[RichardLong]

The enlarged bunkers on the Isle of Wight were not started by the Southern Railway. There is a picture of one of the Isle of Wight Central Terriers in the later black livery sporting one. However, I am not sure if they all had this modification before the grouping. It is quite possible that the IoWCR ones ran in red and black livery before the bunkers were altered and I do not think that the Freshwater Yarmouth and Newport one was altered before 1923.

So plenty of scope for the manufacturers. The more the merrier. I look forward to adding some of these to my collection.

RB

Absolutely. The bunker modification was an IWCR innovation which was subsequently adopted by the SR but it came quite late in the life of the IWCR. I don't think any IWCR Terriers would have received it while still in red livery and I'd guess some or all of them would still have had small bunkers when initially painted IWCR black. I'm pretty sure all four had received it before the Grouping (by which time at least some of them had also been converted to A1Xs). The sole FYNR Terrier didn't receive an enlarged bunker until after the Grouping but that I think was an oddity in a number of ways (owing to its having been acquired from the LSWR) so I'd guess is less likely to be tackled by either manufacturer.

 

I'm going by memory for all this but I'd recommend 'The Island Terriers' by M.J.E. Reed for more details.

[Denbridge]

The latest edition of Hornbys engine shed blog lists the tooling variations for the terriers to allow for variations.

[Edwardian]

The latest edition of Hornbys engine shed blog lists the tooling variations for the terriers to allow for variations.

 

"The tooling suite for these distinctive little locomotives is extensive and reflects the plethora of modifications and variations that have taken place in service and preservation. However, we will look at these in detail in a future edition of The Engine Shed."

 

Some, though not I'd suggest the necessary plethora, variations are evident in the images released.  As to whether there is anything else, the statement merely confirms that we'll have to wait and see, but it's good to see a manufacturer giving details of the prototype and what its tooling represents.  I await the update with interest.  

[truffy]

It will be interesting to see how the Hornby and Dapol/Rails stack up against each other when they're finally available. But, from what I've read here (predominantly the excellent research of the Member for Castle Aching), I'm completely relaxed about my Rails pre-order and the higher price tag.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I stand corrected, I thought both Hornby and Rails were doing 2662, but Rails are doing 2644 I'll probably get both, not sure if it's worth pre ordering? I feel like the BR and pre groupers are more likely to sell out

[truffy]

I feel like the BR and pre groupers are more likely to sell out

 

Pre-groupers probably, but BR? Not so sure. It was KMRC/DJM's green O2s that flew off the shelf, leaving only black ones by the time I got there!

Edited January 12, 2019 by truffy

[GreenGiraffe22]

Pre-groupers probably, but BR? Not so sure. It was KMRC/DJM's green O2s that flew off the shelf, leaving only black ones by the time I got there!

One of my favourite things about wartime black locos is that they often end up in bargain bins =D

[ianmaccormac]

I'm just hoping that one of the parts spotted that needed changing from the sample artwork shown, is the shape and size of the lubricators on the front of the smokebox. The CAD images just look wrong when compared to photos or drawings. Not long really before we see for real I suppose! Cheers from Ian in sunny Blackpool (I wish!)

[Edwardian]

I'm just hoping that one of the parts spotted that needed changing from the sample artwork shown, is the shape and size of the lubricators on the front of the smokebox. The CAD images just look wrong when compared to photos or drawings. Not long really before we see for real I suppose! Cheers from Ian in sunny Blackpool (I wish!)

 

I note how the "February" Mr Kohler talked of seems to have become "May" on the Hornby website.  I suspect they are not so far forward as the announcement seemed to imply and that these pictures are merely cunning renderings, compared with which we may well see some differences on the production model.

[Paul.Uni]

The BR livered DCC fitted versions are currently showing as due in March.

[scots region]

The BR livered DCC fitted versions are currently showing as due in March.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in release dates at this stage, they almost universally slip, the J36 for example was supposed to be out by June, but the first one didn’t make an appearance until December and the other two are still pending in February and May respectively. I doubt 2019 will see this habit change, especially for anything after March given you-know-what.

[Big James]

I’m really hoping these or the Bullied coaches slip. I’ve got enough saved up for a Lord Nelson and a set of Bullied coaches but not the terrier to.

 

Big James