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Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier


Andy Y
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1 hour ago, Ribird said:

That's what I plan on doing for the pipes, something quick and easy Or if anything, use an extra pipe from a detailing pack of another steam loco.

It's worth trying to find a photo of 2662 in sunshine livery (I can't find any pre-BR shots of her either on the net or in any of the books I've got, except one showing the other side in SR green), as the pipes did vary in their routing, like almost everything on the terriers!

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28 minutes ago, Nick C said:

It's worth trying to find a photo of 2662 in sunshine livery (I can't find any pre-BR shots of her either on the net or in any of the books I've got, except one showing the other side in SR green), as the pipes did vary in their routing, like almost everything on the terriers!

I have an image of 2662 in 1947 in black with Sunshine letters, in "Stroudley and his Terriers" by Tom Middlemass. Has a picture of Waddon in preserved form on the cover. Only a picture of her left side. But definitely three pipes coming off the front bufferbeam, so a Westinghouse is needed on the right side. 

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19 hours ago, Ribird said:

As @Jack P pointed out to me when discussing what Terrier would fit our time frame post-war, he brought up my Hornby R2783 2662 is not right after doing some research himself. My smokebox doesn't have any rivets....... But looking at images from every retailer, the Hornby model of 2662 should have rivets, along with the actual locomotive as seen in a 1937 and 1947 picture. 

 

I purchased this model on Rails ebay (not realizing this model is not correct). In the same order, I purchased the Terrier book. Silly me for ordering a Terrier before researching. Over 90 days, so I cannot pull up the listing picture. I would assume this is a factory error?

 

If I remove the condensing pipes, fill them, and paint the whole thing black, would be a perfect donor for 2662 post-war. But not if my Hornby 2662 doesn't have rivets. 

 

Any suggestions where to go from here? Contact Hornby? Take the loss and buy a new one? Convert this one in preserved Bluebell black Stepney?

 

Are you saying the pictures of Hornby's R3783 2662 show it with a rivetted smokebox but your model doesn't have that feature?

What does it say in the book for 62/662/2662/32662 as regards the smokebox's history?

 

I've just looked up as many retailers I could find with stock (Hattons, Olivias, Kernow etc.*) and they all show pictures of 2662 with no rivets, also some e-bay sales likewise, so I can't see how you can come to that conclusion.

My 2662 came new for £70 some months back and also doesn't have a rivetted smokebox. (I don't think:scratchhead:)

 

EDIT

*However I've just found a some pictures with rivets, which I assume are Hornby promos (?) even on the same websites that have them without

 

I'm talking rubbish again:(

Edited by melmerby
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3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Definitely has rivets on the one Kernow has.

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61901/R3783X-WSL-Hornby-Terrier-0-6-0T-Steam-Locomotive-number-2662

 

That's the one I take it?

 

 

Jason

Looks like it, when you blow it up big, as does the Olivias.

Maybe I should have a further look.

I better go and check mine which I was sure doesn't have them.

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There's me making a fool of myself (again!:yes:)

Apologies to RiBird as it looks like I was wrong.

Even mine which I would have sworn was rivettless has them:

terrier.jpg.a6ea13b9dc8687797874cd1692e71f10.jpg

 

BTW there are some pipes in the "add-on" pack which look like they might be the air pipes(?).

The coupling would get in the way on mine.

 

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23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I have a feeling all the A1Xs had prominent smokebox rivets. They weren't countersinking them on lowly tank engines by that time. Apart from maybe the IoW Section.

 

 

Jason

 

'fraid not.

 

406516885_A1X26441938.JPG.5599fb9ed0cea0a4114009644181bf54.JPG

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ribird said:

@cctransuk what size rivets would I need to get?

 

I'm afraid that you'd need to find a drawing or clear photo of the prototype to work that out - and remember that these transfers / decals are intended for HO / 3.5mm. scale.

 

John Isherwood.

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Some Terriers had visible snap head rivets and some had invisible countersunk ones.

As far as I'm aware it depended on where the loco was overhauled.  Ashford used snap head and Brighton used countersunk.  This is why the same loco could have rivets mysteriously appearing and disappearing.

 

I have found a photo in 'Locomotives Illustrated' No. 48 of B662 at Langston in the late 1920s.  There are no visible rivets on the front of the smokebox  but a row at the back next to the boiler.

From Ribird's post it would seem that this changed later on.

On the opposite page there is a picture of W8  'Freshwater' with visible rivets at the front but not at the back !

 

2644 in Edwardian's picture above has no visible rivets and 2647 was the same.

 

As has been shown in melmerby's picture Hornby did actually bother to tool up for both versions.  My BR 32655 and 'Brighton Works' have the rivets and as an added bonus the footplates are straight - unlike 2 of my 3 'Rails' versions.  It would seem that Ribird's model is an oddity and probably very valuable and collectible !

Rodney

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

If you find some large enough, you could also add the missing tank-side cladding bolts.

 

Are you referring to the 12 rivets that border the outside of the tanks? If so, Hornby models have these already. 

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8 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

Are you referring to the 12 rivets that border the outside of the tanks? If so, Hornby models have these already. 

 

No they don't. Not unless they've re-tooled on the sly. The 2662 model under discussion clearly only has 8. This makes all A1X tanks wrong.

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So we are now rivet counting on a model that costs about £80? :scratchhead:

 

I can understand if it cost several hundreds of pounds or even near the price of it's lesser quality "rival" which ISTR was riddled with assembly errors and poor quality models with bent footplates. Which it also beat to market by a year, then beat in the end of year polls. Hornby second to the Peckett, Dapol Terrier in fifth if you go by the RMWeb polls.

 

If we are going to pick at errors what about this?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/39102/Dapol-4s-010-010-oo-gauge-stroudley-terrier-a1x-class-gwr-green-0-6-0-tank-locomotive-no-6-dcc-ready

 

It shouldn't have the bayonet lamp irons and should have GWR type. Guess who has got that right? Yep Hornby. 

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/69998/R3960-Hornby-GWR-Terrier-Train-Pack---Era-3

 

You can pick errors like that out easily. Most RTR models have them. But you are just constantly doing assasinations for no particular reason on easy targets.

 

 

125 Posts about a model you have never intended buying I would say that is an obsession. Evidence is in the top right hand corner.

 

That's more than the other top four posters put together and over 10% of the entire post count....

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My Hornby 2662 is one of the best models I have had in recent times.

It's a lovely runner, haulage is more than it's diminutive size would suggest, its nicely finished and it only cost me just over £70 new from one of the usual retailers.

It's not quite accurate? To crticise it at the price is IMHO rather churlish

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

So we are now rivet counting on a model that costs about £80? :scratchhead:

 

I can understand if it cost several hundreds of pounds or even near the price of it's lesser quality "rival" which ISTR was riddled with assembly errors and poor quality models with bent footplates. Which it also beat to market by a year, then beat in the end of year polls. Hornby second to the Peckett, Dapol Terrier in fifth if you go by the RMWeb polls.

 

If we are going to pick at errors what about this?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/39102/Dapol-4s-010-010-oo-gauge-stroudley-terrier-a1x-class-gwr-green-0-6-0-tank-locomotive-no-6-dcc-ready

 

It shouldn't have the bayonet lamp irons and should have GWR type. Guess who has got that right? Yep Hornby. 

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/69998/R3960-Hornby-GWR-Terrier-Train-Pack---Era-3

 

You can pick errors like that out easily. Most RTR models have them. But you are just constantly doing assasinations for no particular reason on easy targets.

 

 

125 Posts about a model you have never intended buying I would say that is an obsession. Evidence is in the top right hand corner.

 

That's more than the other top four posters put together and over 10% of the entire post count....

 

You're missing the point.

 

I was not criticising the Hornby model's accuracy here - £80 gets you fewer tooling options and, so, you pays you money and you takes your choice - so you are seeking to answer a point I did not in fact seek to make. 

 

My comments were in the context of Ribird wanting to add some relatively small rivets to his smokebox wrapper, indicating (a) that he cared about that level of correct detail, and (b) that he was up for a bit of DIY.  It seemed natural to suggest that, while he was about it, he might add the 4  missing tank cladding bolts.

 

Not sure that needed a defensive fanboy intervention, but still.  I note your selective examples.  I would also agree with the general point that tooling compromises leading to minor inaccuracies are inevitable and that we should by and large accept them. I don't think it wise to try to go toe-to-toe with Rails on the areas of tooling compromises, however, as the Rails tooling suite is more extensive, a fact that particularly benefits the A1s. However, I just don't see any need to get into all that, or, why it's particularly relevant to my attempts to offer Ribird a helpful suggestion. 

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

My Hornby 2662 is one of the best models I have had in recent times.

It's a lovely runner, haulage is more than it's diminutive size would suggest, its nicely finished and it only cost me just over £70 new from one of the usual retailers.

It's not quite accurate? To crticise it at the price is IMHO rather churlish

 

 

 

 

You may want to distinguish between a fact (e.g. 'Hornby's A1X Terriers all lack the 12 tank side cladding bolts in favour of 8, which is incorrect').

 

And a criticism (e.g. 'How terrible Hornby could not get this crucial detail right. It really spoils the job for me' etc).

 

The former leaves room for the conclusion that 'but, overall, it's a nice model and certainly very good for the price, so I'm really happy with mine' etc.  An entirely reasonable view with which I have no wish to quarrel. 

 

Hornby made a cost decision, presumably, when tooling for the Terrier; they wanted to achieve a keen price point. Some things have to be sacrificed, but the savings are passed on to the consumer.  Except that, presumably, the tool for the centre section of the A1X is different from the A1, so it's not immediately obvious why there was a need to leave the tank bolts off. 

 

Nonetheless, whatever the reason for this missing detail, the point was raised in neutral terms in the context of Ribird's planned modifications to his model. No one is attacking your Terrier or looking askance of your enjoyment of it.  

 

With best wishes for a nice day

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19 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I'm afraid that you'd need to find a drawing or clear photo of the prototype to work that out - and remember that these transfers / decals are intended for HO / 3.5mm. scale.

 

John Isherwood.

What is the actual size difference between a HO and a OO sized rivet ?

 

i think we are literally splitting hairs.

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20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

What is the actual size difference between a HO and a OO sized rivet ?

 

i think we are literally splitting hairs.

 

The thing to bear in mind, scale considerations apart, is that these Archer rivet transfers are quite subtle. My experience suggests that Ribird might be best erring on the size of the larger ones available. You can get a mixed sized sheet, IIRC.

 

I have used them on a Todd, Kitson Laird, which was a 3D print with very little detail.  See the smokebox wrapper, tender sides and ash pan.  The rivets are there, but it's pretty easy not to see them.  

 

1572057414_IMG_1362-Copy.JPG.8f38c06aac25a857cb65abbeb80e838e.jpg.387cfdf5b890cddc2e258883ebd151f1.jpg.b7b211e8e35b1dad9a91a8bc0feaca54.jpg

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

What is the actual size difference between a HO and a OO sized rivet ?

 

i think we are literally splitting hairs.

Literally the discussion is about the relative size of rivets - no one has mentioned hairs :)

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

What is the actual size difference between a HO and a OO sized rivet ?

 

i think we are literally splitting hairs.

 

You miss the point - the spacing of the rivets is specified as prototype inches; if working in 4mm. scale rather than 3.5mm. scale, it is necessary to allow for the difference in order to arrive at the spacing in 4mm. scale.

 

Simples - and NOT splitting hairs.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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