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Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier


Andy Y
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Is there now genuinely still scope in the market for the Rails/Dapol version? If I were them, I'd be having a look at the sales forecasts and the R&D spend committed to date...

 

 

If I were them I'd be looking at liveries that Hornby aren't doing. There's a wide open goal for the LBSC umber version (the Rails one has a SR 'B' suffix applied) and there are lots of appealingly named options in the Stroudly livery. 

 

Although I appreciate these may be test models from Hornby there is something that makes them look a bit plastic to me. For example, are the red buffer beams red plastic or actually a painted surface?

 

I will wait until we know which is the better model and then wait again until it is produced in LBSC umber. I'd buy a couple of them. Did they ever run in black under the LBSC?

Edited by Anglian
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the old Hornby Terrier could possibly have given the manufacturer a head start with the new tooling, hence the lower price.

 

 

 

But Dapol did a far better 7mm model, which might give them a leg up.

 

The Hornby model is probably cheaper for three reasons (i) it has more limited tooling options, (ii) they don't have all the bells and whistles that Rails/Dapol are including; it's a lower spec model, and (iii) they are prepared to sacrifice margin to undercut Rails/Dapol.

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If I were them I'd be looking at liveries that Hornby aren't doing. There's a wide open goal for the LBSC umber version (the Rails one has a SR 'B' suffix applied) and there are lots of appealingly named options in the Stroudly livery. 

 

I will wait until we know which is the better model and then wait again until it is produced in LBSC umber. I'd buy a couple of them. Did they ever run in black under the LBSC?

A few did run in black livery in pre-grouping days.

Fenchurch, when transferred to the Newhaven Docks, was still in Stroudley IEG, but following attention at Brighton in 1910 it was painted black with double red lining, and its name retained, apparently with the Newhaven team painting over the old lettering in yellow, it presumably still being visible under the black.

When rebuilt to A1X in 1917 she returned to work in unlined black, with a new name, Newhaven Harbour Company on its tanks.

Bradley does suggest that it also carried goods green after repairs in 1904, but there doesn't seem to be any photographic confirmation of this interesting development.

Two others were drafted into the Loco Department, formerly Millwall and Southdown, which seem to have also been in lined black, with Loco Dept on the tanks. Brighton, which replaced one of these later, seems to have retained its lined umber with the new lettering.

There were others in black in pre-grouping days, those sold to the Isle of Wight Central Railway receiving their black livery, and Waddon, on the SECR, was painted in wartime grey, which tended to darken almost to black over time.

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HMRS Southern Style vol 2 London Brighton and South Coast Railway book covers liveries. Published quite recently by Peter Wisdom with the Brighton Circle assistance.

Cheers

Ian in Blackpool

The Bradley RCTS Locomotives trilogy has a lot of details of livery, often citing particular examples, although some of his notes have been arguable. If it's Terriers you're interested in, then Tom Middlemass produced a monograph on them, published by Pendragon.
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If either Hornby or Rail are so disposed to produce the L&SWR duo then I would have an example of both 734 and 735.

 

 

Rob.

post-14122-0-54928000-1548453459.jpg

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A few did run in black livery in pre-grouping days.

Fenchurch, when transferred to the Newhaven Docks, was still in Stroudley IEG, but following attention at Brighton in 1910 it was painted black with double red lining, and its name retained, apparently with the Newhaven team painting over the old lettering in yellow, it presumably still being visible under the black.

When rebuilt to A1X in 1917 she returned to work in unlined black, with a new name, Newhaven Harbour Company on its tanks.

Bradley does suggest that it also carried goods green after repairs in 1904, but there doesn't seem to be any photographic confirmation of this interesting development.

Two others were drafted into the Loco Department, formerly Millwall and Southdown, which seem to have also been in lined black, with Loco Dept on the tanks. Brighton, which replaced one of these later, seems to have retained its lined umber with the new lettering.

There were others in black in pre-grouping days, those sold to the Isle of Wight Central Railway receiving their black livery, and Waddon, on the SECR, was painted in wartime grey, which tended to darken almost to black over time.

 

Would Fenchurch in its current physical A1 condition be appropriate to appear in IEG rather than umber? I like the umber livery as it gives it part of its identity as a preserved locomotive and keeps it out of the shadow of its more famous classmate, but it would be good to see an A1 in steam in that livery!

Edited by Torn-on-the-platform
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Would Fenchurch in its current physical A1 condition be appropriate to appear in IEG rather than umber? I like the umber livery as it gives it part of its identity as a preserved locomotive and keeps it out of the shadow of its more famous classmate, but it would be good to see an A1 in steam in that livery!

 

Fenchurch is/was in a uniquely preserved A1 condition.  Although generally representative of the class post 1905, in umber and with condensing pipes restored, (i) Fenchurch never appeared in this condition in service and (ii) physical and livery anomalies mean that she does not accurately portray that condition of the class.

 

Physically she has been brought back to an essentially A1 condition, but with some anomalies that means she differs from the A1 in-service conditions that the announced models from both manufacturers can cover

 

For example, she retains later features such as 12-bolts to the tank sides, coupling hook plate on buffer beam and tank-front lubricators, although the latter are here mounted at right-angles to the tank face, as opposed to on it, perhaps to minimise their visual impact.  She is vacuum fitted, and so also carries vac pipe stands and the vacuum exhaust pipe from the cab front sheet along the boiler on her left side.

 

She was, IIRC, the first sold out of service in 1898 and was later re-built to A1X whilst still in Newhaven Harbour ownership, returning later to the Southern This locomotive would, therefore, never have run in umber pre-preservation and no umber-era A1 loco would have looked quite like Fenchurch because of the anachronistic detail differences mentioned above.

 

The as preserved umber livery carries the name Fenchurch, as is/was also the case with E4 Birchgrove, though in Brighton days the names had disappeared when repainted from IEG, so these named umber locomotives are essentially in a preservation-era livery.

 

You mention IEG. The preserved loco could not accurately represent her IEG condition whilst featuring the later detail changes noted above.

 

On her sale to the Newhaven Harbour Company in 1898, she remained in IEG and retained her name, but lost her number plate and Westinghouse brake.  The company had purchased two non-Westinghouse-fitted coaches from the LB&SC in 1892.  Fenchurch was repaired at Brighton in February 1904, fitted with 14” cylinders and outshopped in Goods Green (RCTS Bradley). When the Brighton fitted 14” cylinders to its Terriers, they generally lost their condensing pipes, and Fenchurch may have lost hers too at this time. 

 

IIRC, there is some question over whether Boxhill was painted green experimentally around the time she was motor-fitted, but I suspect that Fenchurch was the only Terrier to have worn Stroudley Goods Green in service. As Nick Hollliday says, there is no photographic record of her in Goods Green, the picture below I understand as showing the next, back, livery, and the name certainly does not look to me like Brighton lettering. 

 

EDIT: Of the announced models, Rails/Dapol Boxhill (IEG with condensing pipes) is the best match for representing Fenchurch in the 1880s and 1890s, and, with the Westinghouse pumps removed, also under the harbour company's ownership, 1898-1904.  So, out with the T-cut cotton bud and some transfers and you're away!

post-25673-0-95205100-1548672980_thumb.jpg

Edited by Edwardian
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The Hornby model is probably cheaper for three reasons (i) it has more limited tooling options, (ii) they don't have all the bells and whistles that Rails/Dapol are including; it's a lower spec model, and (iii) they are prepared to sacrifice margin to undercut Rails/Dapol.

 

The same argument could apply to the new Hornby Mk2f compared to the Bachmann ones.

 

Hornby does to me at least appear to being more price conscious about its higher spec models with its latest announcements. Perhaps Hornby has seen the flack Bachmann has been receiving for its recent prices rises and so has decided to keep prices slightly lower at the expense of some of the bells and whistles. The Terrier, based on what we have seen, seems to part of that strategy rather than an exception designed specifically to spike the Rails/Dapol version.

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The Rails/Dapol Terrier was announced long before the Hornby models appeared,

and has probably attracted most of the pre-orders. I for one pre-ordred the BR

late crest version at the time. Am I tempted to move allegiance, no, on the strength

of the quality and fidelity of Dapols B4, I think their quality is going to be superior.

 

My only gripe with the B4 was Dapols attention to detail, where the correct buffers

for 30089 were produced, but did not end up on that loco!, always a risk when

trying to tool for multiple detail differences within a class, and in conveying information

to a distant factory that cannot be misinterpreted.

 

Good luck Rails/Dapol.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It looks great. As its only a first sample then I'm sure theres a few errors (tank and cab front lining missing?)

Also I cant see why Hornby cant paint their wheels to match the body rather than using plain plastic. They are painting the balance weights so why not paint the whole wheel so it matches?

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On 23/01/2019 at 19:24, Edwardian said:

 

But Dapol did a far better 7mm model, which might give them a leg up.

 

The Hornby model is probably cheaper for three reasons (i) it has more limited tooling options, (ii) they don't have all the bells and whistles that Rails/Dapol are including; it's a lower spec model, and (iii) they are prepared to sacrifice margin to undercut Rails/Dapol.

 

Probably is the right word. But one observation I have of most of the 2019 range is the price point is closer to Oxford Rail’s range than in the past.

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33 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Probably is the right word. But one observation I have of most of the 2019 range is the price point is closer to Oxford Rail’s range than in the past.

 

And maybe not just the price point.

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Already mentioned lining on cabs and tank, but some other aspects look out of proportion like wheel guards, cab windows and wheel splashers.

buffer looks chunky too..

 

however is it me or is that dome on the boiler on the B+W i age a bit more “copper” than yellow ? - certainly doesnt look the same colour as anything painted on that loco.

 

eitherway on price alone this terrier will sell.

Edited by adb968008
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Too much bare coloured plastic for me. I wonder if those areas will be addressed in the final production model. The red plastic piece that forms the lower forward part of the boiler looks very strange.

Edited by Anglian
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32 minutes ago, Anglian said:

Too much bare coloured plastic for me. I wonder if those areas will be addressed in the final production model. The red plastic piece that forms the lower forward part of the boiler looks very strange.

Assuming as its a first sample its just been painted in the same colour as the frames. The Crankpin nuts look way too large to me but probably cant be altered much. 

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17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Already mentioned lining on cabs and tank, but some other aspects look out of proportion like wheel guards, cab windows and wheel splashers.

buffer looks chunky too...

Guard irons are a tricky one in 00 - the frames are necessarily closer together than scale, but the front faces of the wheels are not so far from scale. In order for the guard irons to reach the correct position relative to the front face of the wheel, they need to stick out further from the frames.

 

Hope I've managed to make sense!

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