The Royal Train

['CHARD]

I have just found a rather interesting data source for historic workings of the Royal Train, at the end of this here link:

 

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-03/Royal%20Trains%20List.pdf

 

 

There doesn't appear to be much coverage of the train on RMWeb, but as a rather interesting prototype, even republican or otherwise agnostic modellers can further their knowledge through research! As an aside, I wonder how much information has actually been redacted - I suspect quite a bit is withheld well before the working notices reach the public domain.

Edited January 7, 2019 by 'CHARD

[pb_devon]

I have had NRM provide files from this (1967, 1970), and they've been complete.

Edited January 7, 2019 by pb_devon

[Oldddudders]

Curious. The only royal journeys I know anything about were on Derby Day. Yet in the ‘60s and ‘70s there is no mention, except in 1971, when the train is shown cancelled. Even more curious, because that day I was standing by the winning post when HMQ and her Mum walked the course!

[dibber25]

I have the documents from Barnwell station relating to the journey on 14/15 June 1963 (Euston-Barnwell, returning to Windsor). HM the Queen and Prince Philip came to Barnwell for the 21st birthday of Prince William of Gloucester. The Royal Train stabled here over night. It was headed by an EE Type 4 (never have found out which one) which was replaced by a 'B1' 4-6-0 to provide steam heating over night. The arrangements included such things as replenishing ice in the air-con equipment, security at tunnels and staffing of level crossings, as well as the setting out of the platform (precise stopping point) and the placing and removal of track pans to capture toilet discharge. The station master here had kept all the private documents. I wrote it all up for Steam World magazine about 10 years ago. (CJL)

[Wheatley]

Superb. Thanks 'Chard.

[The Stationmaster]

Sounds as if they are the Company/Regional HQ Royal/'Special' Train planning files mostly from the LM although one or two look to be Western but those could be files covering the LM part.  I used to have charge of the Western files for a couple years back in the 1980s when I dealt with the planning of these trains on the WR and they were well worth an occasional read through when time permitted or when some research was needed.  The latter isn't as daft as it sounds as it GW150 year (1985) some chap wanted to paint a picture of the Royal Train on a previous visit to Llandrindod Wells and wanted to know what the locos were - unusually they were, for on e, identified in the file so at least that part of his picture was accurate.  There was also a wealth of correspondence about the price of purple damask, and the need to order more because the old stuff had faded - apparently it was hung over various parts of Paddington station when the Royal funeral trains were run to Windsor,

 

An even better file was one which had lurked in a cupboard in the London Division Train Office before it was sent to Clapham and it contained folio copies of the London Division notices for every Royal Train journey that had taken place in teh Division - right back to Queen Victoria's first trip - alas I wasn't allowed to save if for posterity and it went to Clapham and might well have been lost.

[Ken.W]

I'd be suprised if many copies of the working notices for these actually survived;

 

One week back in '87, checking the week's daily roster alterations, one day had just a sign on time and the note 'additional' - no indication of the working whatsoever, and no working posted on the notice boards (we knew exactly what that meant of course)...

 

On reporting to sign on that particular day, I'm handed the sealed, numbered, brown envelope by the foreman, which had to be signed for..

and which had to be handed back in to the foreman and accounted for at the end of the shift.

[Bruce Depot]

I´m not surprised there is not much mention regarding the Royal train on here, no idea what happens now but before I left in 2005 I had to be vetted due to having direct contact with the running notice regarding the train. So I for one would not be posting/commentating much regarding its running or photos etc.

['CHARD]

I´m not surprised there is not much mention regarding the Royal train on here, no idea what happens now but before I left in 2005 I had to be vetted due to having direct contact with the running notice regarding the train. So I for one would not be posting/commentating much regarding its running or photos etc.

 

I get that, but - and I'm no Royalist to speak of - it's a very modellable, and go-anywhere (pretty much) ensemble, with a limited pool of vehicles and regularly allocated motive power, so for these reasons it does surprise me that it hasn't really cropped up.  In any era.  Like the New Measurement Train and its counterparts today, it is a circumscribed mini fleet, so an easy enough challenge to tackle, I would think.

 

It can't be because the majority of railway modellers are paid-up Republicans and shun it from their layouts! 

 

As for not commentating on it, it's not invisible when it runs, so there shouldn't be a tendency to avert one's eyes in deference?  With respect, the information required to research it to the levels a modeller would require is all in the public domain anyway; I'm not suggesting we need to know the colour of Princess Anne's preferred lavatory paper, as those windows are obscured glazing it isn't necessary for the average modeller.  What I would be interested in is the loco identity for particular historic workings, and that doesn't represent a security threat 55 years after the fact!

[DavidB-AU]

I take it nobody has bothered checking the National Archives in Kew? A quick search of their catalogue shows they have Royal Train notices going back to 1858. There appears to be a near complete set from LNWR and LMS with varying amounts from other pre-nationalisation companies. Post-nationalisation there are open records as recent as 1988. There are also motive power arrangements, drawings, financial records, photos and lots of correspondence from the 1970s about rollingstock replacement.

That's just the records open under the 30 year rule. There are probably others existing but still closed.

Cheers
David

[Wheatley]

I'm not suggesting we need to know the colour of Princess Anne's preferred lavatory paper, as those windows are obscured glazing it isn't necessary for the average modeller.  What I would be interested in is the loco identity for particular historic workings, and that doesn't represent a security threat 55 years after the fact!

Agreed. It's hardly a covert mode of transport, and those bits which need to remain covert will still be covert even after the other records are released. As modellers we have the advantage of only really being interested in what it looked like - the fine detail of how and why is interesting and useful but not (usually) absolutely necessary.

 

I suspect the reason it's not often modelled is that it requires some effort as it has never been done properly RTR. There's one sleeper (Bachmann Collectors Club) and some Hornby comedy saloons for the modern version, but that's still only a quarter of a generic train.

 

I have the etches for one of the LMS armoured saloons and the ex-LNWR power brakes safely stored in a Round Tuit box, but I'll still need to scratch build the other 2/5ths of 'my' particular working.

['CHARD]

I take it nobody has bothered checking the National Archives in Kew? A quick search of their catalogue shows they have Royal Train notices going back to 1858. There appears to be a near complete set from LNWR and LMS with varying amounts from other pre-nationalisation companies. Post-nationalisation there are open records as recent as 1988. There are also motive power arrangements, drawings, financial records, photos and lots of correspondence from the 1970s about rollingstock replacement.

 

That's just the records open under the 30 year rule. There are probably others existing but still closed.

 

Cheers

David

 

Of course, I'd overlooked Kew - top thinking, sir - many thanks!!!

 

Agreed. It's hardly a covert mode of transport, and those bits which need to remain covert will still be covert even after the other records are released. As modellers we have the advantage of only really being interested in what it looked like - the fine detail of how and why is interesting and useful but not (usually) absolutely necessary.

 

I suspect the reason it's not often modelled is that it requires some effort as it has never been done properly RTR. There's one sleeper (Bachmann Collectors Club) and some Hornby comedy saloons for the modern version, but that's still only a quarter of a generic train.

 

I have the etches for one of the LMS armoured saloons and the ex-LNWR power brakes safely stored in a Round Tuit box, but I'll still need to scratch build the other 2/5ths of 'my' particular working.

 

It is niggling away in my brain too, now.  If it visited the Waverley during 1967-68 I could just be tempted....

[The Stationmaster]

I'd be suprised if many copies of the working notices for these actually survived;

 

One week back in '87, checking the week's daily roster alterations, one day had just a sign on time and the note 'additional' - no indication of the working whatsoever, and no working posted on the notice boards (we knew exactly what that meant of course)...

 

On reporting to sign on that particular day, I'm handed the sealed, numbered, brown envelope by the foreman, which had to be signed for..

and which had to be handed back in to the foreman and accounted for at the end of the shift.

 

The notices were latterly very 'sectionalised' the idea being that virtually nobody except the on-train Inspectorate, Train Officer, and possibly HQ Control would know where the train started and where it would terminate.  Similarly very few people dealt with the planning - during my time dealing with them on the Western I did the planning, and there was a regular timer and a regular diagrammer who did those parts of the job.  If the train was running wholly within the WR there were basically were fewer than 6 people who knew the throughout detail and if the train was running Inter-Regionally there were even fewer people - outside the Wolvertion train staff - who knew the full detail as we only knew our own Regional part of the job. 

 

There was a lot of tightening up on Notices in the 1980s because of details occasionally being leaked, especially if it involved a certain woman who married the Prince of Wales so we moved to a system where there was effectively only one person responsible for dealing with the Notices and they all had to come back to him (me).   And yes - every Notice was numbered and I had to keep a tick list of who each copy was handed to and tick off when it was returned and chase up any which weren't returned.

 

As I said previously the links given by 'Chard could well be planning files although they might possibly be notices especially in respect of earlier h journeys as definitely into the 1950s it seems to have been the fashion to cover the entire journey (within any particular Region) on a single notice.

 

I get that, but - and I'm no Royalist to speak of - it's a very modellable, and go-anywhere (pretty much) ensemble, with a limited pool of vehicles and regularly allocated motive power, so for these reasons it does surprise me that it hasn't really cropped up.  In any era.  Like the New Measurement Train and its counterparts today, it is a circumscribed mini fleet, so an easy enough challenge to tackle, I would think.

 

It can't be because the majority of railway modellers are paid-up Republicans and shun it from their layouts! 

 

As for not commentating on it, it's not invisible when it runs, so there shouldn't be a tendency to avert one's eyes in deference?  With respect, the information required to research it to the levels a modeller would require is all in the public domain anyway; I'm not suggesting we need to know the colour of Princess Anne's preferred lavatory paper, as those windows are obscured glazing it isn't necessary for the average modeller.  What I would be interested in is the loco identity for particular historic workings, and that doesn't represent a security threat 55 years after the fact!

 

The big problem for the modeller is how do you define the train.  I was involved over the years in planning trains of this sort with formations varying between 5 and 12 vehicles  because in every case the formation was arranged to suit whatever the train was being used for.  A 'Royal Train'  (i.e. one conveying the monarch) tended to have a larger formation that a 'Special Train' )i.e one using some of the same pool of rolling stock conveying, say, the duke of Edinburgh or the Duchess of Kent as the Principal Party.  Similarly, and again as a generality, a train running solely during the day (instead of overnight) required fewer vehicles as there was no need to provide sleeping accommodation for the on-train staff although there would normally be sufficient vehicles to enable them to be accommodated and fed.  In another job some years previously i was responsible for ordering the newspapers for trains which started on the WR and it's probably now safe to reveal that if the Queen Mum was travelling the b number of copies of the Sporting Pink was doubled.

 

There is a list somewhere on the 'net of all the vehicles used in the pool during at least part of the BR era and there seem to be photos about of many of them although possibly no greater detail than that.  But if you can find any pictures of the train in use then it's not too difficult to work out what sort of job it was being used on simply by counting the number of vehicles in the formation.

 

And definitely 'go anywhere' - I regularly used to plan jobs involving stabling the train on freight only branch lines and even did a research trip into stabling sites with the BTP on one occasion which had what might best be described as 'interesting' results) but it was great fun riding round in a marked police car - even a BTP one.

 

PS Additional note for 'Chard - if you add one in far a visit to a location on the Waverley Line it's going to be a big train as it would inevitably be an overnight job back in that period.  Nice excuse for a well bulled-up piece of traction on the front.

Edited January 9, 2019 by The Stationmaster

['CHARD]

 

PS Additional note for 'Chard - if you add one in far a visit to a location on the Waverley Line it's going to be a big train as it would inevitably be an overnight job back in that period.  Nice excuse for a well bulled-up piece of traction on the front.

 

The Uplawmoor - Galashiels working of 22-23 September 1964 (conveying HM the Queen Mother and entourage) to coincide (roughly) with the start of term at the new Borders Academy, is the only one I know of for definite in the diesel era, and it's too early for my real 'window,' but if there was a trip or visit after 1966 it would be edging into view... 

[caradoc]

When I started in Control in 1984 the Royal Train Circulars were numbered, and were distributed by the Deputy Chief Controller (ie the shift Duty Manager) to those desks which required them, being collected again after the train had run. Of course there was always one wag who said he had lost his copy, before finding it again ! The trains were not recorded on the Trust system, so Controllers kept track of them by other means, and recorded the timings on the Circular.

 

I was on duty in 1992 on the day of the Gulf War Memorial Service at Glasgow Cathedral, when the Class 47 hauling the Royal Train from its overnight stabling point on the Coltness branch to Glasgow Central failed; It was the nearest I ever saw to panic in the Control Room ! Luckily I was not directly involved.

[Wheatley]

The big problem for the modeller is how do you define the train.  I was involved over the years in planning trains of this sort with formations varying between 5 and 12 vehicles  because in every case the formation was arranged to suit whatever the train was being used for.

 

In my case I'm using the LNWR brake/Mk1?/Mk1?/DoE's 12 wheeler/LNWR brake formation used when Alberta worked it back from Ripon in 1966 (?) because that's the only shortish formation I've seen where I could make a reasonable stab at the vehicles used. Exactly which Mk1s were involved I'm not sure but I've guessed at the dining salon and equirry's saloon.

 

The Gloucester's trip to Stranraer in 1960 is far more appropriate for me. I've no doubt that when I visit the NRM to look at the records (now I know that a) there actually was a trip to Galloway and b)which file to ask for !) they'll have gone in something else entirely, but it's my trainset...

Edited January 9, 2019 by Wheatley

[The Stationmaster]

When I started in Control in 1984 the Royal Train Circulars were numbered, and were distributed by the Deputy Chief Controller (ie the shift Duty Manager) to those desks which required them, being collected again after the train had run. Of course there was always one wag who said he had lost his copy, before finding it again ! The trains were not recorded on the Trust system, so Controllers kept track of them by other means, and recorded the timings on the Circular.

 

I was on duty in 1992 on the day of the Gulf War Memorial Service at Glasgow Cathedral, when the Class 47 hauling the Royal Train from its overnight stabling point on the Coltness branch to Glasgow Central failed; It was the nearest I ever saw to panic in the Control Room ! Luckily I was not directly involved.

 

Always good for a bit of entertainment when things went a little bit awry.  At one time we stabled teh train overnight on the Bodmin branchand in the morning set it back uphill towards a handy accrss point for the PP to alight.  Anywaon one particular morning the 47 couldn't manage tro propel the train (of 5 coaches I think) so drew ahead down the gradient to take a run at it and was overpowered as it propelled back and duly came to a halt.  So the PP duly alighted and walked back up the hill to the access point in the four foot, and found out from direct experience what the track pans were used for for.  All turned into a bit of a tangle and his picnic breakfast was forgotten and left on the train - and his office then insisted that it should be returned to Kensington Palace as it was their property not BR's.  I finished up travelling up from Swindon to Paddington to collect the breakfast (still in its original cardboard box) from the Guard of a Penzance train) and then used a railway car to take it back to the tradesmen's entrance round the back at Kensington Palace.

 

Another almost amusing one - again with a 'special' not a full Royal was when we used to stable on the north curve at Bradford Jcn.  the train stopped at Chippenham to collect the token and just after it left the Chargeman there rang Bradford Jcn Signal Box to say that the tail lamp was out or that it wasn't there at all.  The Divisional Chief Inspector and I were both in Bradford Jcn Signal Box and when he got the message the Signalman looked at both the Chief DI and with a 'what do I do now?' look on his face.  And he looked mighty relieved when we both said, almost simultaneous;, 'well we'll see what it's like when it gets here'.  Always good to have your superiors pn hand in a situation like that - responsibility instantly pushed up the food chain .  When it arrived the Groundsman reported a nice bright red tail lamp properly alight on the rear of the train.

 

The Bradford stabling point - long since lifted - made it to the gutter press one year when they 'reported' that a young lady who was 'seeing' the Prince of Wales (and subsequently became his first wife) was 'smuggled onboard the train'.  It was load of nonsense but in any case I doubt she would have been no more fond of ploughing through the filth on the ground of a nearby agricultural site than those of us who had to be there were.

[96701]

Working in Preston Division office in the late seventies, I couldn't possibly say whether or not there were leaks, but...........

 

 

 

[iands]

Working in Preston Division office in the late seventies, I couldn't possibly say whether or not there were leaks, but...........

20150610221020_01.jpg

 

20150610220624_12.jpg

 

20150610220624_11.jpg

 

20150610221020_06.jpg

It's that model again!

[96701]

It's that model again!

One cannot beat doubling up.

[dibber25]

Here's the make-up of the train when it came to Barnwell. This was a pretty substantial 'Grove' as it was providing overnight accommodation. 'Deepdene' and 'Deeplus' trains were generally shorter formations. The distance between the principal doorway and the centre of the locomotive cab was measured to within one quarter of an inch. A white post and lamp was positioned on the platform at precisely the point where the cab was to stop, this placing the principal doorway precisely where the red carpet would be. 

The former Royal Train Manager, Chris Hillyard, had a spreadsheet of all the post-war Royal Trains, with details of the motive power but, sadly, the identity of the EE Type 4 which came to Barnwell was not recorded, though, IIRC the number of the standby locomotive at Northampton, was known.  (CJL)

Edited January 11, 2019 by dibber25

[The Stationmaster]

The Code words, and procedures, Deepdene and Deeplus went out of use a long time ago - possibly even the late 1960s although it might not have been until the very early 1970s.  Deepdene trains became 'special trains' and Deeplus vanished completely to be replaced by individual Instructions in respect of the particular train involved.  I have the dates somewhere but can't immediately lay my hand on them.

[HillsideDepot]

One from my small collection - I hope that it is of sufficient age that I won't be whisked off to the Tower!

 

 

 

 

[w124bob]

In a 40 year railway career I think witnessed the train in some form about 6 times, it always seemed to be at Victoria for a Maundy Thursday trip out to Kent. Later I encounterd it pausing briefly at Stockport in the early hours, all in darkness apart from what I assumed was the guards brake until I noticed a gun holster hanging on a bulkhead. A couple of regular overnight berths were the little used spur down to Weaste just behind Eccles station and the cord at Parkside. Another sighting was one afternoon at Blackburn, I'd arrived with a 142 from Vic into the bay. Guard and I strolled down the platform for a brew, the special standing on the up platform, not a soul in sight and all the train blinds down. Apart from one, on the table a half empty bottle of Gordons.

A well told story at Manchester Victoria around the mid 80's involved a phone call from control asking for relieve crew for "the Royal Train" the reply "I've got no b****y drivers for an oil train" , the supervisor then slammed the phone down as he cancelled another Oldham loop service. I have no idea whether it's true but, it's a story I heard several times.

[The Stationmaster]

In a 40 year railway career I think witnessed the train in some form about 6 times, it always seemed to be at Victoria for a Maundy Thursday trip out to Kent. Later I encounterd it pausing briefly at Stockport in the early hours, all in darkness apart from what I assumed was the guards brake until I noticed a gun holster hanging on a bulkhead. A couple of regular overnight berths were the little used spur down to Weaste just behind Eccles station and the cord at Parkside. Another sighting was one afternoon at Blackburn, I'd arrived with a 142 from Vic into the bay. Guard and I strolled down the platform for a brew, the special standing on the up platform, not a soul in sight and all the train blinds down. Apart from one, on the table a half empty bottle of Gordons.

A well told story at Manchester Victoria around the mid 80's involved a phone call from control asking for relieve crew for "the Royal Train" the reply "I've got no b****y drivers for an oil train" , the supervisor then slammed the phone down as he cancelled another Oldham loop service. I have no idea whether it's true but, it's a story I heard several times.

 

I'm surprised it was Gordons, the resident crew tended (in my time anyway) to favour a well known grouse - although obviously not while on duty with a Principal party aboard.   Somewhat perversely the first time I did the Oxford - Bletchley line was aboard the ECS off a 'special' working as a guest of the Train Foreman  (the second time I did the line was on an Inspection Special).