Railease Mk1 Carflat

[108]

You’re right, I’d forgotten about 323 saloons, and the second car on lower deck is not the same as the first one on top.

 

I must try harder, lol.

[eastwestdivide]

I recorded a train at Strood on 30/6/1982, probably a Hoo Jn-Queenborough/Sheerness working, consisting of a 73 hauling 2x pairs of the PKA RLS920xx car carriers with 4x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

I don't think it was particularly rare to have relatively few carflats on that working.

Edit: Just found a similar working a month later, a 73 with 1x PFB RLS944xx, 4x BDAs, 2x RRA/RRB runners in the 400xxx series. Presumably the carflat for Queenborough and the steel wagons for Sheerness (for loading with overlength steel wire/rod - hence the runner wagons?)

Edit 2: and another, in March 1982, a 73 with 1x PR3000-series Sheerness Steel PXA, 1x BRA 967xxx borail, 2x pairs of PKA RLS920xx car carriers and 2x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

At the same period, also some similar workings with larger numbers of the 920xx series but no carflats.

All noted at Strood, on presumed Hoo Jn-Sheerness via Queenborough trip workings.

 

I'm pretty sure I also saw trains coming into Hoo Jn from the west including small numbers of these carflats too, but haven't found any notes to back that up.

Edited January 22, 2019 by eastwestdivide

[stovepipe]

Third car on the top deck looks like another 323- IIRC they did come in both hatchback and 4-door saloon flavours. Next in line seems to be another 323, then one more at the back after a Polski-Fiat. Second car on the lower deck looks more like a Polonez?

Second car on the lower deck is I think the previous generation of the Mazda 323 hatch.

[Mike Storey]

I recorded a train at Strood on 30/6/1982, probably a Hoo Jn-Queenborough/Sheerness working, consisting of a 73 hauling 2x pairs of the PKA RLS920xx car carriers with 4x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

I don't think it was particularly rare to have relatively few carflats on that working.

Edit: Just found a similar working a month later, a 73 with 1x PFB RLS944xx, 4x BDAs, 2x RRA/RRB runners in the 400xxx series. Presumably the carflat for Queenborough and the steel wagons for Sheerness (for loading with overlength steel wire/rod - hence the runner wagons?)

Edit 2: and another, in March 1982, a 73 with 1x PR3000-series Sheerness Steel PXA, 1x BRA 967xxx borail, 2x pairs of PKA RLS920xx car carriers and 2x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

At the same period, also some similar workings with larger numbers of the 920xx series but no carflats.

All noted at Strood, on presumed Hoo Jn-Sheerness via Queenborough trip workings.

 

I'm pretty sure I also saw trains coming into Hoo Jn from the west including small numbers of these carflats too, but haven't found any notes to back that up.

 

Depends on the timings. The trips from Hoo to the Sheppey branch tended to be early morning (timed arrival at Queenborough at around 08.50 IIRC) or late morning. The returns were timed at around 10.00 off Queenborough, and around 15.00 off Queenborough (having been to Sheerness and back prior, normally). If at any other time, bar delayed services, the trips could equally be for Dover in that period, with a drop off at Sittingbourne Yard to be collected later.

 

Certainly your first mentioned could well be for Dover, the others sound more like Sheppey trips, but all of them seem unusually short lengths. But it did vary a lot, I admit. My recollection was that Autics and Cartics were far more prevalent on those trips (82-84) than flats, but then my recollection has often proven somewhat faulty.....

[eastwestdivide]

Those sightings were mostly late morning down through Strood. Certainly those with steel wagons look more likely to be for Sheppey than anywhere else. 1982 working timetable anyone?

At least we've got some justification for someone to run one or two carflat models in a train of "others".

Edited January 22, 2019 by eastwestdivide

[Mike Storey]

Those sightings were mostly late morning down through Strood. Certainly those with steel wagons look more likely to be for Sheppey than anywhere else. 1982 working timetable anyone?

At least we've got some justification for someone to run one or two carflat models in a train of "others".

 

I have an early 1980's SED (SR?) Freight WTT somewhere, but late morning at Strood would suggest the Sheppey trip each time.

[SED Freightman]

I recorded a train at Strood on 30/6/1982, probably a Hoo Jn-Queenborough/Sheerness working, consisting of a 73 hauling 2x pairs of the PKA RLS920xx car carriers with 4x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

I don't think it was particularly rare to have relatively few carflats on that working.

Edit: Just found a similar working a month later, a 73 with 1x PFB RLS944xx, 4x BDAs, 2x RRA/RRB runners in the 400xxx series. Presumably the carflat for Queenborough and the steel wagons for Sheerness (for loading with overlength steel wire/rod - hence the runner wagons?)

Edit 2: and another, in March 1982, a 73 with 1x PR3000-series Sheerness Steel PXA, 1x BRA 967xxx borail, 2x pairs of PKA RLS920xx car carriers and 2x PFB RLS944xx carflats.

At the same period, also some similar workings with larger numbers of the 920xx series but no carflats.

All noted at Strood, on presumed Hoo Jn-Sheerness via Queenborough trip workings.

 

I'm pretty sure I also saw trains coming into Hoo Jn from the west including small numbers of these carflats too, but haven't found any notes to back that up.

Have found the following services which appear to have been primarily for the automotive traffic and would have given two hours for loading at Queenborough if the wagons were turned round same day.

 

Commencing 01/03/1982 until 16/05/1982

6K47 1145 (SX) Hoo Junction to Sheerness Steelworks - Air Braked Service. Headcode 5G. Booked loco DL.

Strood 11/54

Queenborough 1230 - 1313

Sheerness Steelworks a.1328

Loco returned on

6M40 1415 (SX) Sheerness Steelworks to Willesden Brent Sdgs - Air Braked Service

Queenborough 1422 - 1500 to attach

 

Commencing 17/05/1982

6K47 1205 (SX) Hoo Junction to Sheerness Steelworks - Air Braked Service. Headcode 5G. Booked loco ED.

Strood 12/18

Queenborough 1255 - 1325

Sheerness Steelworks a.1336

Loco returned on

6M40 1425 (SX) Sheerness Steelworks to Willesden Brent Sdgs - Air Braked Service. Booked loco ED to Hoo Jn thence DL.

Queenborough 1432 - 1506 to attach.

Edited January 25, 2019 by SED Freightman

[Mike Storey]

Have found the following services which appear to have been primarily for the automotive traffic and would have given two hours for loading at Queenborough if the wagons were turned round same day.

 

Commencing 01/03/1982 until 16/05/1982

6K47 1145 (SX) Hoo Junction to Sheerness Steelworks - Air Braked Service. Headcode 5G. Booked loco DL.

Strood 11/54

Queenborough 1230 - 1313

Sheerness Steelworks a.1328

Loco returned on

6M40 1415 (SX) Sheerness Steelworks to Willesden Brent Sdgs - Air Braked Service

Queenborough 1422 - 1500 to attach

 

Commencing 17/05/1982

6K47 1205 (SX) Hoo Junction to Sheerness Steelworks - Air Braked Service. Headcode 5G. Booked loco ED.

Strood 12/18

Queenborough 1255 - 1325

Sheerness Steelworks a.1326

Loco returned on

6M40 1425 (SX) Sheerness Steelworks to Willesden Brent Sdgs - Air Braked Service. Booked loco ED to Hoo Jn thence DL.

Queenborough 1432 - 1506 to attach.

 

Thanks for these - stirs something in my remaining little grey cells. But the timing between Queenborough and Sheerness on the May change is a little heroic!!

 

I recall that the reduction in the shunt at Queenborough from 45 mins to 30 mins was a real bone of contention for our S/R shunter, as if a shunt to Shipbreakers was needed, as well as some Autics/Cartics or flats to be left on the parallel roads for the next morning's shunt up to the car loading dock, there was never enough time. Plus for the return, MCD/MAT were often not ready for the 15.00-ish trip, and our shunter was not unknown to just split the rake and couple up the wagons they had managed to load, but this would then leave a big problem for the morning shunt.

 

That would result sometimes in just the two or three flats (Comtics or the carflat type), which would have been loaded first, being the only wagons added to any POA's/BDA's/SPA's for the Willesden trip. So, anyone wanting to model a short rake - there is your prototype!

[SED Freightman]

Thanks for these - stirs something in my remaining little grey cells. But the timing between Queenborough and Sheerness on the May change is a little heroic!! - Well spotted, my error now corrected.

 

I recall that the reduction in the shunt at Queenborough from 45 mins to 30 mins was a real bone of contention for our S/R shunter, as if a shunt to Shipbreakers was needed, as well as some Autics/Cartics or flats to be left on the parallel roads for the next morning's shunt up to the car loading dock, there was never enough time. Plus for the return, MCD/MAT were often not ready for the 15.00-ish trip, and our shunter was not unknown to just split the rake and couple up the wagons they had managed to load, but this would then leave a big problem for the morning shunt. - I'm trying to remember who the shunters were, Len Dockrill is a name that springs to mind (but maybe wrong ) and Terry Maisey at Chatham Dockyard.  Did any cars that were left behind get returned to the compounds or were they left overnight in the small compound at the end of the Pier Sdg ?

 

That would result sometimes in just the two or three flats (Comtics or the carflat type), which would have been loaded first, being the only wagons added to any POA's/BDA's/SPA's for the Willesden trip. So, anyone wanting to model a short rake - there is your prototype! - This period would make for an interesting model with the duplicate Air and Vac services and hence wide range of wagon types still in use on the Island.

[Mike Storey]

 

Thanks for these - stirs something in my remaining little grey cells. But the timing between Queenborough and Sheerness on the May change is a little heroic!! - Well spotted, my error now corrected.

 

I recall that the reduction in the shunt at Queenborough from 45 mins to 30 mins was a real bone of contention for our S/R shunter, as if a shunt to Shipbreakers was needed, as well as some Autics/Cartics or flats to be left on the parallel roads for the next morning's shunt up to the car loading dock, there was never enough time. Plus for the return, MCD/MAT were often not ready for the 15.00-ish trip, and our shunter was not unknown to just split the rake and couple up the wagons they had managed to load, but this would then leave a big problem for the morning shunt. - I'm trying to remember who the shunters were, Len Dockrill is a name that springs to mind (but maybe wrong ) and Terry Maisey at Chatham Dockyard.  Did any cars that were left behind get returned to the compounds or were they left overnight in the small compound at the end of the Pier Sdg ?

 

That would result sometimes in just the two or three flats (Comtics or the carflat type), which would have been loaded first, being the only wagons added to any POA's/BDA's/SPA's for the Willesden trip. So, anyone wanting to model a short rake - there is your prototype! - This period would make for an interesting model with the duplicate Air and Vac services and hence wide range of wagon types still in use on the Island.

 

 

Archie (I have forgotten his surname) was the regular Queenborough S/R shunter all the time I was there. A giant of a man with huge, Gladstonian whiskers around his face. He didn't suffer fools gladly and was about as communicative as a brick wall, but he certainly knew his stuff, and would get it done whatever the problem, but would rarely work overtime. I think his numbertaker was called Len? There was an Area relief called Robin, who would cover leave and sickness, and I would find far more out about what Archie was up to from him!

 

If they continued to load cars after part of the rake was despatched, they would leave them on the wagons. But their drivers tended to knock off not long after that anyway. We would try get the loco doing the Ridham to Sheerness trips to move them to one of the through roads later that day, if there was one running (quite irregular, depending on what scrap had come in the previous few days by ship) so that the morning trip could propel new empties straight on to the ramp, and take the loaded away on its return trip. Otherwise the morning trip would have to do a triple shunt, which, if there was also traffic for Shipbreakers, would not be possible in the allowed timings, so we were on the back foot all morning.

 

I don't recall a regular shunter at Chatham Dockyard, as there was so little business there. The very few moves when I was involved, were done with Robin. I think Terry was one of the Gillingham shed and yard shunters, so he must have done them too?

Edited January 25, 2019 by Mike Storey

[SED Freightman]

Archie (I have forgotten his surname) was the regular Queenborough S/R shunter all the time I was there. A giant of a man with huge, Gladstonian whiskers around his face. He didn't suffer fools gladly and was about as communicative as a brick wall, but he certainly knew his stuff, and would get it done whatever the problem, but would rarely work overtime. I think his numbertaker was called Len? There was an Area relief called Robin, who would cover leave and sickness, and I would find far more out about what Archie was up to from him! - From your description I have certainly encountered Archie.

 

If they continued to load cars after part of the rake was despatched, they would leave them on the wagons. But their drivers tended to knock off not long after that anyway. We would try get the loco doing the Ridham to Sheerness trips to move them to one of the through roads later that day, if there was one running (quite irregular, depending on what scrap had come in the previous few days by ship) so that the morning trip could propel new empties straight on to the ramp, and take the loaded away on its return trip. Otherwise the morning trip would have to do a triple shunt, which, if there was also traffic for Shipbreakers, would not be possible in the allowed timings, so we were on the back foot all morning. - Very interesting, its a long while since it was safe to leave cars overnight in Queenborough Yard.

 

I don't recall a regular shunter at Chatham Dockyard, as there was so little business there. The very few moves when I was involved, were done with Robin. I think Terry was one of the Gillingham shed and yard shunters, so he must have done them too? - I think Terry Maisey was there full time while the stores were being removed prior to closure, I remember liaising with him regarding exceptional and load examined movements when large quantities of stuff were being sent to Devonport, Rosyth etc.

Edited January 25, 2019 by SED Freightman

[The Pilotman]

I came across this picture:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64657021@N07/39750288563/

 

showing three Railease carflats, albeit empty. The working is unidentified but judging by the shadows it looks to have been taken around midday or early afternoon. There was a 6V16 Dover to Morris Cowley that came down the WR mainline at about this time so it could well be that. 

[eastwestdivide]

I came across this picture:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64657021@N07/39750288563/

 

showing three Railease carflats, albeit empty. The working is unidentified but judging by the shadows it looks to have been taken around midday or early afternoon. There was a 6V16 Dover to Morris Cowley that came down the WR mainline at about this time so it could well be that. 

Could easily have picked up the carflats and the steel coil at Hoo Junction from the Sheppey trip (and the TTAs from a Grain branch trip?)

[Mike Storey]

Whilst RMWeb was down, like many, I took the opportunity to search other fora. Found this on a local history site for Sheppey, which should be of interest - a mix of loaded Comtics and Carflats on a train ex-Queenborough (or maybe Sheerness) passing across Kingsferry Bridge. I would guess the date would be mid to late 1990's? Very strange that flats have been used throughout, as many of the vehicles shown could have gone on to double-deckers.

 

[jamie92208]

Just come across this topic and may be able to help.  I certainly remember carflats that were converted from Mk1 underframes working into Wakefield Westgate in the late 80's.   There were sidings on the east side of the line roughly where the new station building is.   From memory there were two unloading ramps, one for single deck car flats that was mainly used for Ford Transits and one that catered for double deck carriers.   From distant memory the Vans used to come from the, now closed, factory at Eastleigh.  I've no memory of where the cars came from.   There was a distribution depot near where the new multi storey car park is.   The sidings were electrified but as far as I know they were never shunted by electric locos as I think that the traffic had ceased by the time electric services started.   I can't remember what company name was on the flats but they were definitely Mk1 underframes with plank floors.

Jamie

[Fat Controller]

The Wakefield depot was a Ford operation; the cars would have come from Dagenham. Dave F's excellent photos often have shots of these trains. They would have been operated by Tolemans (orange wagons) and MAT (blue).

[Fat Controller]

21 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Whilst RMWeb was down, like many, I took the opportunity to search other fora. Found this on a local history site for Sheppey, which should be of interest - a mix of loaded Comtics and Carflats on a train ex-Queenborough (or maybe Sheerness) passing across Kingsferry Bridge. I would guess the date would be mid to late 1990's? Very strange that flats have been used throughout, as many of the vehicles shown could have gone on to double-deckers.

 

The flat-decked wagons further back aren't bogie Carflats, but the four-unit wagons on former SNCF ferry-vans chassis. These were operated by STVA, and converted around 1995. This sort of mixed formation was to be seen on the Rover trains from Longbridge to Lonato, carrying various vehicles from the Land Rover stable. 

 

[Mike Storey]

3 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

 

Thanks Brian - well after my time dealing with such things! Do you know what the wagon(s) is/are (with mainly blue cars on it/them) that is sandwiched in between the two 4-unit sets? I do not recognise it/them at all.

[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Thanks Brian - well after my time dealing with such things! Do you know what the wagon(s) is/are (with mainly blue cars on it/them) that is sandwiched in between the two 4-unit sets? I do not recognise it/them at all.

They're another type of car-carrier used by STVA, first appearing in the UK just prior to the Tunnel opening. I heard at the time they'd been built specifically for the anticipated traffic via the tunnel, but more recently discovered they dated from the early 1950s.

 

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock has photos of the various types. The 4-wagon ex-Ferry Van conversions are 'IFA', the other STVA ones are  in 'IPA'

 

[Mike Storey]

12 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

They're another type of car-carrier used by STVA, first appearing in the UK just prior to the Tunnel opening. I heard at the time they'd been built specifically for the anticipated traffic via the tunnel, but more recently discovered they dated from the early 1950s.

 

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock has photos of the various types. The 4-wagon ex-Ferry Van conversions are 'IFA', the other STVA ones are  in 'IPA'

 

 

Many thanks Brian - very interesting. 

 

[SED Freightman]

On 01/02/2019 at 13:09, Mike Storey said:

Whilst RMWeb was down, like many, I took the opportunity to search other fora. Found this on a local history site for Sheppey, which should be of interest - a mix of loaded Comtics and Carflats on a train ex-Queenborough (or maybe Sheerness) passing across Kingsferry Bridge. I would guess the date would be mid to late 1990's? Very strange that flats have been used throughout, as many of the vehicles shown could have gone on to double-deckers.

 

Can anyone identify the product being conveyed ? It may be a train operated for Gefco if they are Peugot / Citroen vehicles and the photo was taken in the late 1990's as suggested.  This would also tie in with the use of single deck wagons as their Berlingo type vehicles would not fit (at least with a sensible payload) on double deck wagons.

[eastwestdivide]

3 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

...Can anyone identify the product being conveyed ? It may be a train operated for Gefco if they are Peugot / Citroen vehicles and the photo was taken in the late 1990's as suggested.  This would also tie in with the use of single deck wagons as their Berlingo type vehicles would not fit (at least with a sensible payload) on double deck wagons...

Could the white/silver high vehicle on the train (on the "level" flat wagons) be the 1998-model Berlingo people carrier? Have a look at the photo gallery on https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/car-reviews/citroen/berlingo/berlingo-multispace-1998-2008/, there's a rear view of a blue one showing a similarly-shaped rear window and high-level brake light as the one on the train.

On dates, a 1998-model Berlingo is feasible: 37042 lasted long enough to be preserved at Eden Valley http://www.evr-cumbria.org.uk/motivepower.htm which says "transferred to the reserve fleet in 2004". It's in EWS colours by the look of it, so that gives an earliest possible date for the photo of 1996.

Edited February 4, 2019 by eastwestdivide

[Joseph_Pestell]

So far as I can see all PSA vehicles.

 

I can make out: Berlingo/Partner, C3, C5 estate, 807

[Fat Controller]

I suppose PSA had to bite the bullet, and hire in STVA wagons, as their fleet in the UK only comprised double-deckers, as far as I'm aware.

[SED Freightman]

Eastwestdivide & Joseph Pestell, many thanks for the info, sorry to have drifted off topic.  Whilst involved in the early days of Gefco traffic from Sheerness, including loading Partner vans in an ex Motorail GUV (in 1997), I had not realised they were subsequently forwarding traffic in the quantities seen in the photo, which is presumably traffic for Corby, Doncaster or Mossend.