Is Pre-Ordering Really Necessary?

[Talltim]

For much of what I buy, if I don’t pre- order, it doesn’t even come to this country

[Steven B]

And if I do preorder what happens if theres a QC issue ?

 

Send it back for a refund, just as you would do if you'd bought it off the shelf via mail order.

[Ross34]

I fancied a Rapido RDC Budd when they announced it for which you had pre-order.

I didn't and of course when they were released couldn't get hold of one.

 

(As an aside my dad tried to buy one from Rapido at a show - he asked, "Do you have any RDC1.s? - whilst waving a big wad of cash. "No, you didn't pre-order". "But here you are telling everybody how great this model is. I'm stood here waiting to give you money and you can't sell me one" Guy at Rapido shrugs his shoulders - my dad puts his money away. Later on finds a Proto 1000 RDC at a great price - and spends the change elsewhere.)

 

Make of that what you will.. but I'll probably never buy a Rapido RDC now. Not because of my dads experience but primarily due to the gap between announcement and prodution -if I'm being honest the need for it wasn't there when Rapido finally released the model. Even the Proto1000 model never comes out the box.

 

Most of my purchases are now made to overseas manufaturers for which pre-ordering is taken as a given (the market is too small for large scale production). However, because there is still the "announcement - release" time gap I'll more often than not take my chances on the second hand market. I've missed out on one or two really nice models but it hasn't changed my life.

[PaulRhB]

Rapido’s business model means they can produce unusual items in relatively small volumes at minimal risk. That’s good business and also means they can announce quite a large range of models, like a bigger concern, and actually deliver them all. Rapido are up front about having to order them, as there will be minimal extra, and they are advertising current models quality to get you to sign up for the next one. To be honest the big boys have pretty much moved toward tailored batches too as it means minimal warehouseing time as it all goes out to retailers.

[GeoffAlan]

I currently have three locos on pre-order. The HATTONS Garratt, and two N gauge society Hunslett shunters. In the first case, I suspect the N gauge Garrett will be sold out long before the first one turns it's wheels on a buyer's layout, and the N gauge society is only available as a pre-order with deposit.

[davknigh]

How lucky do you feel? The manufacturers have good reason to want pre-order as some have found out, to their cost, that the enthusiasm for a product before production does not always match that after it’s been produced thus leaving them with a shed load of unsold goods. If you have a local hobby shop that routinely gets extras in on spec then you might get lucky and be able to buy a choice item but as mentioned above not even dealers always get what they order.

 

An aside about the Rapido RDC v the Proto RDC. I’ve seen both in action, no comparison. The Rapido one is streets ahead in running and detail. (Usual disclaimer applies)

 

Cheers,

 

David

[andyman7]

It's playing the percentages. If you really want something, pre-order from a reliable supplier (hint - if they don't really carry much new stock, be wary whether they will have enough clout to fulfil a preorder if there is high demand). If you think 'nice...but let's wait and see', don't preorder and take a chance. Currently there is less chance of stock dumping after release as both Hornby and Bachmann have clearly clamped down on supply - nothing in Hornby's new release programme for 2018 has appeared on serious markdown, whereas a couple of years back prices were dropping by a third on some items a few weks after release. Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing Bacchy Freightliners or Mk2fs in the bargain bin either.

[Steven B]

I currently have three locos on pre-order. The HATTONS Garratt, and two N gauge society Hunslett shunters. In the first case, I suspect the N gauge Garrett will be sold out long before the first one turns it's wheels on a buyer's layout, and the N gauge society is only available as a pre-order with deposit.

 

I would be very suprised if Hattons only make the Garrett's that they've got orders for; They've got plenty of their own OO Gauge Barclay and P Class tank engines and O Gauge Warwells in stock.

 

Similarly the NGS will be ordering more Hunslet shunters than they have pre-orders for. Preordering the Hunslet saved £7 and guarenteed your choice of model. New orders now have to wait until they're in stock and hope their choice of livery isn't a fast seller.

[Steamport Southport]

It's playing the percentages. If you really want something, pre-order from a reliable supplier (hint - if they don't really carry much new stock, be wary whether they will have enough clout to fulfil a preorder if there is high demand). If you think 'nice...but let's wait and see', don't preorder and take a chance. Currently there is less chance of stock dumping after release as both Hornby and Bachmann have clearly clamped down on supply - nothing in Hornby's new release programme for 2018 has appeared on serious markdown, whereas a couple of years back prices were dropping by a third on some items a few weks after release. Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing Bacchy Freightliners or Mk2fs in the bargain bin either.

 

Are you sure?

 

I had an email from Rails offering £50 discount on the recent Duchesses. That's a quarter off.

 

 

Jason

[mdvle]

I fancied a Rapido RDC Budd when they announced it for which you had pre-order.

I didn't and of course when they were released couldn't get hold of one.

 

(As an aside my dad tried to buy one from Rapido at a show - he asked, "Do you have any RDC1.s? - whilst waving a big wad of cash. "No, you didn't pre-order". "But here you are telling everybody how great this model is. I'm stood here waiting to give you money and you can't sell me one" Guy at Rapido shrugs his shoulders - my dad puts his money away. Later on finds a Proto 1000 RDC at a great price - and spends the change elsewhere.)

 

Pre-order or not depends on a number of factors, including how the sourcing company works.

 

With Rapido specifically, their main current method(*) is this:

• they announce a product, with a pre-order deadline and an estimated delivery period (these sometimes change, either because insufficient pre-orders have arrived or due to scheduling issues at the factory - sometimes a model takes longer to make causing a ripple of delays in the factory).
• they usually have a full production sample that has been hand painted by Rapido with pictures and often a YouTube video to demonstrate the model prior the the pre-order deadline so you aren't entirely ordering blind.
• they then produce enough models to meet the orders they have and sometimes a few extras but even those extras can often sell out prior to arrival.

Not all companies work this way, and the various methods all have positives and negatives.  What is true is that there is a cost to carrying inventory, whether at the retailer / distributor / manufacturer level and it can cause financial problems if they are not careful.  This has become more of an issue as we get more and more new models announced/delivered in a year, which soaks up the hobby budgets leaving little money behind to purchase shelf items.  Or to put it another way, it is easy to make and sell inventory if there are only 4 new models a year and the consumer has no choice, but when you are getting 32 or so new models a year carrying inventory becomes a gamble(***).

 

There are 2 keys to successful pre-order, the first is that the manufacturer actually has to make enough product to meet all orders and the second is that you need a reliable retailer who gets the orders in to the manufacturer by the deadlines and is in good standing with the manufacturer.  When problems occur it can be difficult to know who is at fault.

 

The other aspect of whether to pre-order or not depends on how specific your model needs/desires are.  If you just want a, for a random example, Deltic and don't need it right away then you can afford the gamble of not getting one and wait to see what happens, and if necessary perhaps wait for a second run to happen a couple of years later.  On the other hand if you want a specific unit with a specific number/name/livery and that is in the current offering you might be better off pre-ordering because even if a second run occurs it will likely be different name/number/livery.

 

My suspicion is that pre-ordering may not become mandatory, but if they want to (remain/return to) profitability the size of production runs is going to be managed to try and produce a minimal amount of extra inventory.

 

* - Rapido is also moving into doing some smaller runs to be announced when they arrive at Rapido, to be sold on first come basis, to use up spare capacity at the factories - the factories will have a list of projects that they can do quickly to remain productive during lulls in the normal production schedule.

 

*** - good for everyone who took advantage of the recent massive Hatton's sale, but when you are clearing out that much inventory somebody is losing because that is a lot of money that has been tied up for something sitting on a shelf collecting dust.

[mdvle]

Are you sure?

 

I had an email from Rails offering £50 discount on the recent Duchesses. That's a quarter off.

 

 

Jason

 

To be fair that was likely still based on decisions/orders made by previous management at Hornby so may not be an indicator of what will happen going forward.

[Steamport Southport]

To be fair that was likely still based on decisions/orders made by previous management at Hornby so may not be an indicator of what will happen going forward.

 

They are the new models that appeared about a month ago. They were only announced about six months ago.

 

Now they've gone back up to £169.50.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35929/Hornby-r3681-oo-gauge-lms-princess-coronation-class-4-6-2-6241-city-of-edinburgh-

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35924/Hornby-r3682-oo-gauge-br-blue-duchess-of-gloucester-princess-coronation-class-4-6-2-steam-locomotive-no-46225

 

 

 

Jason

[Andy Mac]

I think pre ordering will become more common in the future as the manufacturers continue to trim their production runs and the frequency of models selling out on preorder increases...

Today, you can still get away with not preordering, but you need to keep an eye on this forum for clues as to a models popularity and keep a watch on the online shops for availability....

[Ross34]

 

An aside about the Rapido RDC v the Proto RDC. I’ve seen both in action, no comparison. The Rapido one is streets ahead in running and detail. (Usual disclaimer applies)

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

I agree completely ..but at the time though the Proto was very cheap - and available. As I said the project the Rapido RDC model was meant for has been scrapped so I almost certainly would've flogged it off anyway. I buy models for a layout, once that layout is defunct, and I can't re-use the stock, they get sold too - primarily to fund the next project. I can't see the point of keeping models tucked up in boxes doing nothing, no matter how good they are.....sorry, I know thats probably going off topic a little. My point being the time gap does influence my choice to pre-order.

[RJS1977]

I think pre ordering will become more common in the future as the manufacturers continue to trim their production runs and the frequency of models selling out on preorder increases...

Today, you can still get away with not preordering, but you need to keep an eye on this forum for clues as to a models popularity and keep a watch on the online shops for availability....

 

Trouble is, trimming production runs is a vicous circle. Shorter production runs, means the development and tooling costs need to be recouped over fewer units. So costs go up, and fewer sell. So they shorten the production run of the next item....

[HonestTom]

It's a gamble. I didn't think the Peckett would sell out, because manufacturers were always telling us that there was no demand for industrial models, but it did right away. I only got one because of a department store near me that was off everyone's radar. I pre-ordered the PLA version because it's a livery I don't want to miss out on. But subsequent batches don't seem to have sold as quickly, so now I'm wondering if it was necessary. I don't regret pre-ordering, because the model's paid for already - it'll be like getting a present from myself.

 

I'm pre-ordering the Ruston 48DS, because I think that will be a strong seller. If it's not, no problem, at least I know I've got it.

Edited January 11, 2019 by HonestTom

[phil-b259]

They are the new models that appeared about a month ago. They were only announced about six months ago.

 

Now they've gone back up to £169.50.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35929/Hornby-r3681-oo-gauge-lms-princess-coronation-class-4-6-2-6241-city-of-edinburgh-

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35924/Hornby-r3682-oo-gauge-br-blue-duchess-of-gloucester-princess-coronation-class-4-6-2-steam-locomotive-no-46225

 

 

 

Jason

 

So in other words Hornby / Kernow / whoever put on a short lived discount promotion on one particular model to attract interest and increase sales. Not exactly revolutionary nor something unusual in retail in general and rather different to the across the board discounting seen in previous years on the Hornby website over multiple models.

[Butler Henderson]

It's a gamble. I didn't think the Peckett would sell out, because manufacturers were always telling us that there was no demand for industrial models, but it did right away. I only got one because of a department store near me that was off everyone's radar. I pre-ordered the PLA version because it's a livery I don't want to miss out on. But subsequent batches don't seem to have sold as quickly, so now I'm wondering if it was necessary. I don't regret pre-ordering, because the model's paid for already - it'll be like getting a present from myself.

The Works one does not seem to selling well - Model Railways Direct have 33% off it and have managed to sell around a dozen and half since yesterday lunchtime but still have over three dozen  of them. Makes you wonder how many of each loco the boxshifters order - its not a surprise Hattons can still have "more than 10" of a loco that has been a best seller.

[Craig1989]

Tbf I’ve pre ordered before and will continue to do so as I done with rails this year and Hattons last year and have done with limited editions although some of them I’ve been lucky and some not as some after I’ve ordered and got them have put the price up and some have dropped the price like 37419 in db livery from trains 4 u

[NoelG]

Having never pre-ordered anything ever before (apart from take-aways) including non model orientated purchases but at the same time never having been unable to source a product, I wonder if there is any real need to order in advance.

Or have I just been lucky so far?

Arguably, production runs are limited to a degree and the pre-order guarantees an item; it would be interesting to see if any member has ever had call to regret not ordering in advance.

In a word, no. It’s just a way of funding cash flow for manufacturers or seed capital to help a new product off the line. I’m no longer providing free finance to model companies. Will pay in full when they are ready to deliver the goods. I can see their prob of ‘tyre kickers’ who fail to pay up when products are ready, but that’s their business to organise, not modellers problems. Still I can see some products may never have happened without the support of pre-payment or mischievously disguised as crowd funded projects when they are not. It’s a free world, if a collector is anxious to secure a particular model train by pre-paying that’s their free choice. Companies should fund their own operations.

[Paul80]

The bizzar side of pre ordering

 

Hornby via Arnold have announced a re run of their N-Gauge Brighton Bell, and like their 00 version they are selling it as a twin motor unit pack and a triple coach pack, the coach packs have sold out already. Leaving everyone else to run a two car Brighton belle.

 

Why would this be, did Hornby/Arnold make less coaches than motor units or are some owners using the coaches for something else, surly we are not going to see some 8 unit Brighton Belle trains because previous owners added more coaches than was prototypical;)

[Andy W]

In a word, no. It’s just a way of funding cash flow for manufacturers or seed capital to help a new product off the line. I’m no longer providing free finance to model companies. Will pay in full when they are ready to deliver the goods. I can see their prob of ‘tyre kickers’ who fail to pay up when products are ready, but that’s their business to organise, not modellers problems. Still I can see some products may never have happened without the support of pre-payment or mischievously disguised as crowd funded projects when they are not. It’s a free world, if a collector is anxious to secure a particular model train by pre-paying that’s their free choice. Companies should fund their own operations.

Well yes, but if you preorder say Hornby or Bachmann from a model shop, you don't pay up front, you pay when they supply the goods. The objective here is to ensure the shop orders enough units from the manufacturer to meet the demand. It is totally different to ordering from smaller manufacturers or commissioners who are indeed using a prepayment system to fund production. I don't see even that as an issue if it means something is made that would otherwise never see production. I've certainly pre-ordered Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol and Heljan from retailers and never been charged up front. I've also ordered models or parts from small suppliers that are effectively made to order, and I did pay up front for them. I haven't ventured into pre-paying or crowd funding for batch-produced models, not because I have any objection, but because none have been offered yet that suit my scale/period/location.

[John Tomlinson]

Another vote for "No" from me. I've never pre-ordered, and can't really see me changing this practise. After decades in the hobby, so far I've not missed out on anything I really wanted, and if I do well, that's just too bad. It's only a model train after all!

 

John.

[ROSSPOP]

Not sure if anybody has mentioned pre-ordering O Gauge.

 

I`ve surprised myself and become a great fan of Dapols 7mm products. I did have their 48/14XX loco on pre-order with Rails of... but have cancelled as it is a new product

and will now wait until it has been reviewed in the modelling press.

 

Otherwise I might end up with a dodgy engineered chassis ( now where did I get that possiblity from !!! )

 

For me thats a potential problem of pre-ordering stuff not seen.....

 

John

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I think that, as mentioned by others, the Bachmann SECR livery C class was the only time that I have really needed to pre-order, proven by the fact that when it turned out to be a dud, it had to go back to the Bachmann as there were no replacements to be had. I pre-ordered the H class as a result, but whilst it sold well, I could have bought for a reasonably good price after release, same for the birdcages. I also pre-ordered the Hatton's P class as Bluebell in particular was a locomotive that I did not want to miss out on, though it doesn't seem that they have sold out on many of the variants. There is clearly still an appreciation for SECR liveries, but the excitement has perhaps died down.

 

I wasn't expecting to get an original release Hornby Peckett, but there Dodo was, sat inconspicuously on my then local model shop's new releases shelf.

 

I can't remember my logic for pre-ordering the Rails of Sheffield Terrier. I think it may have been as I thought I would be pre-ordering one of the more popular versions in the early BR liveried Stepney. I already know that this was not, in the end, necessary.

 

My preferred tactic is to hang around the new release section of the Hattons website, and keeping up to date with announcements on Rails of Sheffield. By the time they have posted their own photos of the product, the releases will have been reviewed and critiqued and I will know if I definitely want it. I do still buy early, as waiting for a sale price is too risky a tactic as there is never any indication as to whether further runs of a certain model will be released.

 

It was interesting to see that the RMWeb/DJM yellow austerity generated a lot of conversation and 'I'll have one of those' before taking a long time to shift, with stocks being diverted to Hattons to help with sale.