I Have Truly Had It With Hornby

[robmcg]

Dear All,

 

Although I know from many years of buying Hornby models that many are faulty, I have simply had enough.

 

I bought a R3623 blue Coronation 6221 'Queen Elizabeth' which had missing front top handrails, lovely model otherwise, I thought of trying to repair it but in the end the missing handrails are too small for me or anyone I know to handle so I have returned it to the UK from New Zealand. The seller is excellent (AJM Models) and had refunded everything including UKP16 air post cost.   I lost just UKP6 in currency exchange fees.

 

No winners there.  Except the currency changers.

 

A second R3623 bought about the same time from Kernow arrived this morning.

Picture below.

 

Top handrails and cowling handle missing. No sign of anything in the box (for both models, I am wise to these things, open models only over a clean surface). The front bogie is jammed upwards into the body, probably an easy fix.  But the previous one has a packing piece there....

 

The missing parts are not a result of transit. The models left the factory like this. In my opinion.  This is unacceptable but to a degree inevitable if I buy off the web.  I am disabled and currently cannot even leave my house, I have to pay a carer to drive to a post shop agency, which is no fault of Hornby, but it still annoys the hell out of me.   I cannot fix such small and fiddly bits myself.

 

I can hear the braying now, "five minutes work!"   "could you build one yourself for that price?"  "why not buy off a retailer who will open it for you before you buy?"       the nearest retailer at a price even remotely close to the UKprice is 700kms away.

 

Sorry.  Hornby have lost another customer, a very valuable long-term regular buyer

 

I am THAT annoyed.

 

p.s. I am also I think rational and know myself well enough to think that some day I will change my mind, but two out of two glaringly faulty models?  Where is even the most basic quality control?  The models are 98% superb. What kind of company would accept this?

 

Right now I am content to say I will never buy another Hornby product .  Never.

 

Hurrrmff 

 

edited to fix mis-spelt Hornby in title

Edited January 10, 2019 by robmcg

[Brocp]

Are missing detail parts really enough to qualify a model as faulty? A faulty model for me is one that won't run, have broken peices etc.

 

While i totally agree that Hornby's QC needs a serious revamp i think a missing handrail or two isn't the end of the world. Understand the frustration but for most people i don't think they would be massive, never buy a certain brand again issue.

[sub39h]

Are missing detail parts really enough to qualify a model as faulty? A faulty model for me is one that won't run, have broken peices etc.

It’s incomplete. It’s faulty. I wouldn’t risk ruining a brand new model I spent a considerable amount on by trying to repair it myself.

[Brocp]

It’s incomplete. It’s faulty. I wouldn’t risk ruining a brand new model I spent a considerable amount on by trying to repair it myself.

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

[E3109]

Worth considering an email to Hornby perhaps.

 

I did this with Bachmann once (well, I wrote a letter) and within a week received a cracking reply from the customer services guy, with the parts enclosed, gratis. Even more impressive when I told them that the damage was down to me.

 

I'd write to Hornby, you might be pleasantly surprised.

[sb67]

Definitely worh writing to Hornby Rob, our models are not cheap and you should always expect them to be complete and undamaged. 

Good luck.

Steve.

[Hal Nail]

I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron

Initially I was thinking that’s ridiculous but I’ve got no evidence whatsoever and the more I think about it actually you might be right. I suspect just being on a forum already filters out a huge number who aren’t as interested and you could probably go further and say many people wouldn’t even know a handrail was missing.

 

That is absolutely no consolation to those of us that do care but checking each model would probably add far more to the cost than we realise and I doubt we would pay, let alone those that didn’t mind in the first place. Let’s face it the clear business model is to bash them out as cheaply as possible and I’d guess that if they do anything at all, Hornby keep an eye on returns and take a view on acceptable (to them) levels based entirely on economics.

[RichardS]

I doubt those buying say a new car and found switches for example missing would feel inclined to wire in their own replacements. Different scale same principle. A product should be complete as advertised when sold.

 

The role of the retailers here must also be questioned though. In a face to face sale then any omissions can be dealt with immediately but surely for mail order they are checking the goods before despatch. If not then surely they should.

 

It is quite normal for British consumers to habitually accept second rate goods and services lest they be forced to complain. Stiff upper lip and all that, don't make a fuss. This trait really is bad as it allows suppliers to get away with things.

 

Even if, as they explain, other buyers are happy to accept incomplete goods I am surprised they are, presumably, happy to still pay full price especially if they are then happy to effect their own repairs.

 

The manufacturers and retailers must be laughing behind their backs.

 

Of course this is a principle and the 'happy to repair and pay full price' group make their own choices but by doing so they send a message that others may not subscribe to.

 

Incomplete goods should be returned or at least sold as seen at a discount.

 

By accepting incomplete goods some purchasers are being taken as mugs by manufacturers and retailers who can safely ignore the QC that others expect.

 

The OP is quite right.

[Perfect Paul]

Hi,

 

I fully understand the gentleman's frustration at receiving models with either missing or broken parts.

 

In my experience, The Hornby customer services dept have been second to none in the four times that I have dealt with them over the years.

 

Well worth contacting them, i'm sure they will help.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Perfect Paul

[Dunsignalling]

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

Would you accept a new car with a door handle missing?

[Legend]

It’s a shame because Hornby have generated a huge amount of interest in their 2019 announcement . Rob is a great advocate for Hornby . The fact that he is so hacked off. Speaks volumes . He is not the only one. Mikesndbs  on here has had issues with the new Coronation. And there’s plenty of discontent on YouTube . It’s got to the stage where opening a Hornby box is no longer exciting but foreboding . Will it work or won’t it ? I think the larger the loco the more issues you are likely to have . My J36s was a lovely sweet runner , but then relatively simple compared to a Coronation . It may also have something to do with use of different factories . Maybe one is not quite as good as the others. However none of that is out concern, we should expect goods to be top rate and working when we open the box.

Come on Hornby . Your 2019 announcement was great , but get the QC right , if not then you won’t suceed . Folks give you a chance as Rob has, but sooner or later enough is enough and they give up

Edited January 10, 2019 by Legend

[dogbox321]

Hi, yes its never good to get a model you have been looking forward to, to find that bits are missing.  Likewise most companies don;t try and pee off their customers.  Sometimes there is just "sods law to contend with", and chaos theory that suggests that things will just cluster together.  I recently had some wagons (from a different manufacturer), and 5 had parts missing!  Luckily I contacted the producer and have been supplied the parts and its all sorted.  

 

Regarding the missing parts - I've noticed recently that many trains now do not tend to have glue used to secure components, or if they are, it must be more like the consistency of spit, because loads of parts have fallen off trains, and its not been Hornby products either!  Personally, I'd give the model a bit of a shake to ensure no small parts have got into the inside of the body/chassis.  Failing that, it sounds like someone was having a bad day in the factory........  I'd certainly try the customer service contact, to see what is possible regarding spares, or whether due to you being unable to handle such fine parts, whether they may be able to provide a replacement body.

 

I'm sure most model shops, if you asked, would be happy to check a model over for you, before sending it to you.  Prevention is better than cure, and with you being in New Zealand - its surly much easier to check it in the UK, than to have to deal with faulty returns from New Zealand.

 

Regards,

 

C.

[Jonboy]

The role of the retailers here must also be questioned though. In a face to face sale then any omissions can be dealt with immediately but surely for mail order they are checking the goods before despatch. If not then surely they should.

It’s funny, I always used to have the choice of paying more to osbournes, where Maurice would carefully open the box, inspect the model, place it on the test track and ensure it was a good runner and in tip top shape(probably whilst handing over a cup of coffee) or go online and save a few quid and forego this with the seller relying on the manufacturer and the occasional inspection at random...as a community as a whole modellers(and society in general) seem to have prioritised saving a few quid over the one to one service they also claim to want.

 

With all the costs of running a business these days rising faster than the prices customers are prepared to pay ( rent, business rates, banking, waste disposal, H&S compliance, communications, staff wages, NI, pensions, to name a few ) and squeezing margins ever more the two are ever more mutually exclusive. I say this as the manager of a wholesaler supplying over 1000 uk small retail businesses with hobby items and talking day in day out to their owners.

 

I do sympathise with the OP, items should be complete and as described, but it is the herd mentality of “got to get every item to fill the display case at the lowest possible cost because my pension/salary/disposable income is so meagre” collectors/modellers that has shaped the market today and this has for me removed the choice of exceptional service for a few more quid as the local shop has closed.

[brushman47544]

You have my sympathy Rob. Whether a question of better quality control or factory assembly, Hornby’s models haven’t in my opinion been assembled to the same standard since the Sanda Kan factory closed.

[caradoc]

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

 

Sorry but I cannot agree that this model is not faulty; It has missing parts that ruin the look of the locomotive ! It should never have left the factory in that coindition, and I can fully understand robmcg's annoyance and frustration, especially given his location and consequent hassle in returning the defective item.

[jjb1970]

I fully sympathise with the OP, if goods are incomplete then they're faulty and should be returned. If you've had a bad run (for some weird reason these things often come in runs, like the old adage of bad news and 3) then it's completely understandable if you say enough is enough. Especially if you're on the other side of the world having to return faulty goods to the UK.

 

In some ways I think the British willingness to excuse and accept poor service and poor QC is an underestimated part of the reason for the decline of some of our former industries. Even with industrial goods we seem to be conditioned to expect that machines will have teething problems, you have to expect stuff to need attention when new, a big thing like a ship won't work out of the yard so give it a year or two of intensive work to make it sort of like it should be. That attitude also seemed to influence operators as if you expect machinery to be rubbish on initial handover then it fosters an attitude of thinking it is easier to manage sorting stuff out in service rather than developing procedures and systems to make sure it is right in the first place.

[spikey]

The role of the retailers here must also be questioned though ... surely for mail order they are checking the goods before despatch. If not then surely they should.

 

And how would you want them to do that?  Would that include running a loco forwards. backwards, at a crawl and at speed?  Would you assume that the shop staff have the expert knowledge to spot, for example, a missing handrail which certainly isn't obvious to me?  And would you then be happy to accept that loco which has been handled, run and then replaced in its packaging, and so is indistinguishable from one which has been returned from another customer?

 

And while I'm at it, might I just point out to those advocating 100% inspection of finished models the well-established fact that 100% inspection by humans cannot be relied upon to spot 100% of faults.  It also ups the cost.

Edited January 10, 2019 by spikey

[RichardS]

The first port of call should be the retailer as that is who the contract of sale is with. By passing the retailer and referring straight back to the manufacturer is letting the retailer off the hook.

If you get a faulty car you go back to the dealership not the factory.

The retailers will have more sway in getting the manufactuer to improve quality.

Make work for the retailers who in turn will make work for the reps.

Nobody likes complaints (reps more than anybody)

 

If you accept shoddy work - you'll only get more of it.

 

Quality is a mindset. If something is done it can be done right or it can be done wrong. Doing it right is less costly than doing it wrong if the latter needs rectifying. But it might be cheaper if the buyers don't come back.

Better quality doesn't automatically mean higher prices as the latter can mean less sales especially in things like model railway items.

 

If a retailer - any retailer - disregards customer satisfaction, change retailer. They'll soon get the message.

 

Yes I know all about economies of scale but that doesn't apply to most retailers - the last thing they want is complaints.

 

Bachmann were renown for cheap sales at shows. They had so many due to returns for quality issues. They don't have so many now. They improved their QC. (as confirmed to me by one of their reps) Basically they had to. (Unless customers just gave up and accept their failings and I was told porkies by the rep - but I doubt that)

[Legend]

It’s funny, I always used to have the choice of paying more to osbournes, where Maurice would carefully open the box, inspect the model, place it on the test track and ensure it was a good runner and in tip top shape(probably whilst handing over a cup of coffee) or go online and save a few quid and forego this with the seller relying on the manufacturer and the occasional inspection at random...as a community as a whole modellers(and society in general) seem to have prioritised saving a few quid over the one to one service they also claim to want.

 

With all the costs of running a business these days rising faster than the prices customers are prepared to pay ( rent, business rates, banking, waste disposal, H&S compliance, communications, staff wages, NI, pensions, to name a few ) and squeezing margins ever more the two are ever more mutually exclusive. I say this as the manager of a wholesaler supplying over 1000 uk small retail businesses with hobby items and talking day in day out to their owners.

 

I do sympathise with the OP, items should be complete and as described, but it is the herd mentality of “got to get every item to fill the display case at the lowest possible cost because my pension/salary/disposable income is so meagre” collectors/modellers that has shaped the market today and this has for me removed the choice of exceptional service for a few more quid as the local shop has closed.

 

Don't forget for large parts of the country , and I suspect Rob in NZ, there isn't a local retailer who can take it out the box and test run it for you .  That's why the  goods need to be good from the word go whether its parcel post  or bought from a local shop .  Its not about money either , people often say its folks wanting money off that's caused this dash to the bottom of QC .  Nonsense !   Prices of models have risen dramatically . QC is not an optional extra it should be intrinsic in every purchase .

[Brocp]

Would you accept a new car with a door handle missing?

Now we're comparing model trains to cars? One thing with cars at least we can see them before we buy them, unlike a model train these days.

[Paul80]

I know how the OP feels, I have just made the same decision for Dapol, I have had so many faulty models from them this year alone that I have decided to never buy another model from them, and that includes their new class 50 which I realy wanted but will not risk any more money on a another model with dodgy gears or dodgy wiring or dodgy glue or dodgy linkages and some with more than one of the above.

[Legend]

Now we're comparing model trains to cars? One thing with cars at least we can see them before we buy them, unlike a model train these days.

 

Cars , washing machines , tellys, laptops , a jumper from M&S . No difference , we should expect it to be correct from the word go . Doesn't matter what you compare it with .  

[Zunnan]

No, models like this shouldn't really reach the customer, and I'd venture to suggest that when a vendor receives a sale to an international customer that the model should be checked over before it is sent out so that the cause of any damage by the time it arrives with the customer can be identified, especially considering the cost of returns. If transit damage can be proven, then at least attempts can be made to recover those costs. And if a model is indeed missing parts from the manufacturer, that feedback can be made without the affected model ever reaching the customer.

 

Faulty model or not, I have to question all of the bluster over a few missing handrails when you quite happily accepted a part destroyed Heljan 47xx.

[RichardS]

And how would you want them to do that? Would that include running a loco forwards. backwards, at a crawl and at speed? Would you assume that the shop staff have the expert knowledge to spot, for example, a missing handrail which certainly isn't obvious to me? And would you then be happy to accept that loco which has been handled, run and then replaced in its packaging?

 

And while I'm at it, might I just point out to those advocating 100% inspection of finished models the well-established fact that 100% inspection by humans cannot be relied upon to spot 100% of faults. It also ups the cost.

Yes.

Yes. Too many retailers are product ignorant. I had to explain to a 'specialist' TV retailer the other day what HLG is and why its important with regard to future HD broadcasts. Product ignorance is all too prevalent these days. Plus I would expect even an average shop assistant to spot holes where something is missing (the handrail in the example). If they can't do that one questions a) their employability and b) the motives of their employer.

 

Yes. I want a product that is complete and working on delivery not one I have to send back.

 

I don't think anybody has actually mentioned 100% product integrity for obvious reasons.

 

Having worked in and managed customer service in one way or another all my life - the last thing any sensible decent manufacturer or retailer wants are returned goods and complaints. Avoiding the vast majority of these is down to mindset, training and a little effort.

 

I suspect a lot of people on this forum have no experience of the dire state of British manufacturd goods (British Leyland for eg) or the lousy service given in most places in the 70s for example. Present day is in my experience by and large much better fuelled by global competition in goods and labour but there is no room for complacency. It's so easy to slide back into mediocrity.

[Edwardian]

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

 

I'm sorry, but yours is a very silly argument.

 

The OP, who has my sympathy, doesn't need you posting to tell him he hasn't a problem. He clearly has. And how do you think you helped him?

 

Very bad luck there, Rob. Clearly QC is not what it should be.  It would not be the first example of the apparent inability to control the quality of Chinese factory output.  

 

I'd hate to think of the carbon wheel print of your model by the time you get a fault-free one!

 

Best of luck in resolving this.