Lima DCC motor convertion

[Cozy2168]

Hi to all first time posting on the group.

I have recently converted a Lima class 33 motor to a new CD type motor I purchased from Diesel trains.

This was my first attempt at any internal work on a loco as looked simple enough to do.

All went well and was quite straight forward, but I’m having a problem with loco running with a DCC chip in, it runs absolutely fine at all speeds on Anologue but when first moving with a chip in it judders.

The chip was the original one I had fitted to the loco that was already converted to DCC.

I have tried another chip in another loco and also the 33s original chip in another loco and runs fine.

I have contacted Diesel trains about problem as was stated runs fine with DCC but have not got back to me as yet.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Paul

[pheaton]

Hi Paul.

 

you dont mention which chip you have used. I havent fitted a lima motor for years with a chip, my last lima 31s were converted to railroad chassis which sometimes have the same issue you are describing but are a little better at accepting a chip out of the box than lima motors are.

 

I would check if BEMF Is enabled, and possibly look at adjusting the CV for the starting voltage. But out of the box some decoders might see the lima motor as a little primitive and adjustments to be made.

 

Also its never made a difference for me but have you removed the suppression capacitor?

[Phil S]

If the dcc decoder is an 'original' - as in 'early' decoder - then it may not be operating (or able to operate) in so-called 'silent' modes - the early decoders, becasue ot past history with mains-related devices such as Zero-1 and others, used 50/100Hz as ther 'base frequency' -  and when initiall starting / running slowly, this produces a loud bizz (bit not the higher frequency dcc unfitted buzz) ... and jerky motion with each pulse.

Later decoders (especially those providing sound, moved the basic frequency up and out of the audio range (for humans)   (eg 16,000Hz then 20,000Hz ....

This was made possible with faster-switching transistors, and in turn allowed some smaller devices to be used as less enrgy was stored per pulse  - but countered by 'stay alive' ideas wanting more storage of enrgy on board... requiring larger capacitors.

The 'cd' motors - also available from other suppliers from abbout 6GBP inc postage - are very responsive and so can 'cog' around with the pulses.  They would also benefit from a resistor reducing the voltage across the motor - athough using CV5 can also be used to reduce the top speed.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Try turning DC mode off (in CV29) too.

Conflicting reports on whether it works or not but if you don't plan on using DC again, may as well turn it off.

[Cozy2168]

Thanks for your replies the two chips I tried were both Hornby first was a TTS sound chip the other was a Hornby R8249.

As I already stated both had worked fine in sane loco before I converted to the new motor and still work fine in other locos now.

Regarding changing the CV values I am unable to do this as I only have a select controller.

Thanks

Again

[Izzy]

 

A TTS decoder is just a 8249 with sound bits tacked on, so the same motor control, which isn’t the best, or with much in the way of adjustment either. Would be best if you could find/try another decoder type/make. I am sure a Zimo MX600 @ £20 would do the job without issue although not being able to make any cv adjustments at all is far from ideal since no two motors react to any decoder in exactly the same way.

 

Izzy

[Cozy2168]

A TTS decoder is just a 8249 with sound bits tacked on, so the same motor control, which isn’t the best, or with much in the way of adjustment either. Would be best if you could find/try another decoder type/make. I am sure a Zimo MX600 @ £20 would do the job without issue although not being able to make any cv adjustments at all is far from ideal since no two motors react to any decoder in exactly the same way.

 

Izzy

Thanks for that answer just one other question in response to your answer.

Would it be possible to have CV values changed by the tech guy at my local shop and then used ok on my layout.

Thanks again

Edited January 11, 2019 by Cozy2168

[Pete the Elaner]

Thanks for that answer just one other question in response to your answer.

Would it be possible to have CV values changed by the tech guy at my local shop and then used ok on my layout.

Thanks again

Yes, definitely. Once done, they should remain running fine.

Don't be watching them do it or you'll be wanting to upgrade your Select!

 

I have a couple of chipped Hornby Ringfield motor locos. Different chips, different results. As mentioned the Hornby R8249 & TTS have limited adjustment for running. They are fine for some motors so maybe they could be re-used? Better decoders are very tweakable.

[smokebox]

Don't be watching them do it or you'll be wanting to upgrade your Select!

 

Upgrading from the Select is probably the best move he could make.

[Cozy2168]

Upgrading from the Select is probably the best move he could make.

Looks like ile have to start saving my pocket money the wife gives me!!!

[Izzy]

Looks like ile have to start saving my pocket money the wife gives me!!!

 

I would suggest that if you have a PC/laptop and are happy using them a reasonable and fairly cheap way to a system that can do virtually anything is via a Sprog 2 or 3 and JMRI. It does mean the laptop is the base station along with the Sprog, and the throttles are on-screen unless you have a Android/i-phone which can be used as wi-fi throttles, but with Decoder Pro (part of the JMRI suite), you have perhaps the easiest way to program/adjust any decoder.

 

Izzy

[Phil S]

Looks like ile have to start saving my pocket money the wife gives me!!!

A fully usable Roco Mutimaus (cabled) system is usually available for less than 100GBP on ebay - 'broken from sets' ... and allows furure  upgading to a z21/Z21 whilst retaining the use of the Multimaus .... AND because a Select is using Expressnet .... your existing Select handset could still be used as a 2nd (slave)  handset with the roco Mutimaus as Master - plugged into the Amplifier box in connectors labelled as such.   

The Multimaus will give full access to writing CVs, and 21 functions (or 28 when used with the Z21)  ... it also allows naming of locos - with 5 character names  for upto 64 locos per (Multimaus)  handset - using  shortand long addresses as you wish.  Its also comfortable to hold and easy for children (parts can also be locked out of use to stop them reporogramming)

 

[as a result of moving to the Z21/z21,and the availability of the wireless WLAN Multimaus for use with it,  the rrp of the Multimaus handset has dropped to 99E/99 GBP to match the wireless handset ... but then it is sold without the 10764 Amplifier and SMPS  power supply - which are from digital starter sets at 65-100 GBP on ebay and Rons Lines etc (subjectto availablility).

Of course, other, and often more expensive systems are available (including the Z21) - but many of them also use Expressnet which means you should be able to use the Select as a 2nd handset - no need for programming by it.

[RAF96]

I have a DVD motored diesel loco with a TTS chip and it runs absolutely fine on datum settings.

 

Note Select will soon be able to be used with a PC using the newly announced Hornby SelectaLink USB-Xpressnet adaptor cable. This at least will allow it to be used with Hornby Railmaster. Who knows, maybe it will also be able to change CVs via RM.

Rob

Edited January 11, 2019 by RAFHAAA96

[Cozy2168]

I would suggest that if you have a PC/laptop and are happy using them a reasonable and fairly cheap way to a system that can do virtually anything is via a Sprog 2 or 3 and JMRI. It does mean the laptop is the base station along with the Sprog, and the throttles are on-screen unless you have a Android/i-phone which can be used as wi-fi throttles, but with Decoder Pro (part of the JMRI suite), you have perhaps the easiest way to program/adjust any decoder.

 

Izzy

Thanks for your advice

I’ve invested in a Zimo Mx600 chip to see if it works if not i needed another chip for another loco.

I’ve done a bit of searching regarding the sprog 2 which seems just what I’m looking for at the moment as I have plans on moving my layout from the garage into the loft in the near future so would like to invest more on a better controller at a later date.

Just one thing about the sprog I would like to ask as I can’t find much info about it there’s a version called the nano will this do the same thing allowing cv values to be changed etc.

Thanks again for your help

[Izzy]

I believe the nano is an interface to allow a DCC power booster to be used with a computor, I think that's right anyway,  the full details are here;

 

http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/            (you can of course obtain the products direct from here)

 

I must confess that I mostly use my Sprog 2 for decoder programming as I have a Gaugemaster/MRC PA2 system for layout use. But it is I find a good way into DCC - with JMRI -  as it can cover all your needs if you want, and you can always get a stand alone system later to suit your particular requirements should you wish. My PA2 came before I found out about the Sprog. It is always handy to have a back-up DCC system in case the main one goes belly-up for any reason, ( in my case operator error/stupidity - twice!).

 

As you say the Sprog 2 covers most needs, and combined with Decoder Pro makes, to my mind, programming a decoder of any make/type a breeze compared with having to fiddle with cv numbers. Takes a bit of getting used to, so it does help to be happy with programmes with drop down menus, pages etc. But worth the effort of getting to grips with it. And you can go with JMRI as far as you want. Keep it simple, or get involved in complete layout automation (not my thing I'm afraid).

 

Izzy

[Cozy2168]

A TTS decoder is just a 8249 with sound bits tacked on, so the same motor control, which isn’t the best, or with much in the way of adjustment either. Would be best if you could find/try another decoder type/make. I am sure a Zimo MX600 @ £20 would do the job without issue although not being able to make any cv adjustments at all is far from ideal since no two motors react to any decoder in exactly the same way.

 

Izzy

[Cozy2168]

A TTS decoder is just a 8249 with sound bits tacked on, so the same motor control, which isn’t the best, or with much in the way of adjustment either. Would be best if you could find/try another decoder type/make. I am sure a Zimo MX600 @ £20 would do the job without issue although not being able to make any cv adjustments at all is far from ideal since no two motors react to any decoder in exactly the same way.

 

Izzy

Hi

Just an update zimo chip arrived today and put it in and now works fine problem solved. A lesson learned won’t be buying anymore Hornby chips.

Once again thanks for all your advice much appreciated.

Paul

[Pete the Elaner]

Hi

Just an update zimo chip arrived today and put it in and now works fine problem solved. A lesson learned won’t be buying anymore Hornby chips.

Once again thanks for all your advice much appreciated.

Paul

I quite like these Zimo decoders for their performance.

It is nice to hear I am not just being snobbish!

[Izzy]

Hi

Just an update zimo chip arrived today and put it in and now works fine problem solved. A lesson learned won’t be buying anymore Hornby chips.

Once again thanks for all your advice much appreciated.

Paul

 

Thanks. I am glad it has all worked out for you. I rather thought a Zimo would solve the issue. The problem is that many modellers see the better quality decoders only in terms of cost and it isn't until you try them and see the benefits, not the fancy bits but the basic core of any decoder, motor control, that an appreciation of why Zimo are better becomes clear, and especially when faced with 'awkward' locos and motors.

 

Izzy

[RAF96]

Upgrading from the Select is probably the best move he could make.

Select firmware v1.6 allows CVs 1-255 to be changed for values 0-255 where allowed. See Hornby 2019 catalogue. Also SelectaLink cable will allow Select to be connected to a PC to interface for example with Railmaster software. Loco zero will also be disabled by default and at a unit reset.

 

That just leaves the Select limited loco and accessories adress ranges as a grump item and the cost of the latest production run unit...