Layout of private sidings

[spikey]

I have an area of  my 00 layout measuring roughly 48" x 18" in which I am intent on having a factory with three private sidings, ideally laid out something like this:-

 

 

Traffic will enter and leave the factory's territory from the track on the left, which is effectively a kickback siding off the headshunt of my goods yard.  So wagons arriving will be shunted in on the track at the left by BR, and handed over to the works Ruston diesel (when it arrives from Hornby!), with the process being reversed for goods leaving.

 

I am currently stuck for how to lay out those three sidings to give me goods in and goods out (bottom two tracks) and a tanker siding, such that the Ruston will be able to draw arriving wagons in, shunt them to the tanker siding and/or goods in as required, then deliver wagons from the goods out siding to the incoming track ready for the pickup goods to collect.  Obviously I need a run-round loop somewhere, but I'm having a total brainfart over it so would welcome all suggestions.

 

Note that all that is fixed at present is the position of that incoming track on the left, and the toal area available.  The three sidings can be orientated as required for best operation: ideally the goods in and goods out will be roughly parallel, with the tanker siding clearly separate from those two.

 

We are only talking three or four wagons at a time on the premises plus a couple of tankers.

[sb67]

I guess the simplest way without a run round loop would be a set of 3 way points and your wagons could be pushed on to the bottom siding by BR, the Ruston being parked in the one of the other two sidings. The BR loco moves of scene and he Ruston goes to work. Having made up the train it then parks in an available siding and a BR loco move in and draws the made up train away. 

Hope that helps

Are you having a fiddle yard at the left hand end or is it coming straight from your layout? if there's a run round loop in your goods yard you might not need one on this bit as any running round could have been done before entering here.

 

Here's anotther idea using a run round loop although it is very small. A train could be drawn in the loco runs round and moves off scene and the Ruston does its thing makes up the train in one of the loop lines, runs round if needed and the BR loco returns and takes the train away.

Hope that makes sense. I'm sure you'll get a few other ideas, good luck.

 

Steve.

[spikey]

Thanks Steve.  I can't see how I can do it without a runround loop somewhere, because

 

(a) Wagons are delivered to and taken away from the factory approach track (i.e the stub shown on the left of the diagram) by the BR loco, which is always to the left of them.  It's not allowed onto the private track.

 

(b) The Ruston can't go past (i.e to the left of) where BR leaves the wagons

 

I'll have to do some very careful measuring-up, but if I replace the two left-hand points in your bottom plan with a three-way and keep the effective length of the loop as short as possible, it might just give me enough standing room on the right to park at least two wagons but still allow the Ruston to run round the loop.

 

I can't see much room for improvement on that, but maybe somebody else can?

Edited January 10, 2019 by spikey

[sb67]

Ok Spikey, I get all that. So all we are looking at is private track and the BR loco will not be seen on this part of the layout, the wagons will just be collected by the ruston? 3 Way points would save you a bit of space If you wanted to keep your loop as long as possible could you add an extra siding to park wagons on at the front of the layout and make the loco release just big enough for the ruston? or, as you say measure up and make the loop shorter 

A bit like this.

 

 

You'll get there.

 

Steve.

Edited January 10, 2019 by sb67

[sb67]

I just noticed the points in the crossover aren't connected but you get what I mean :-) 

Steve.

[Flying Pig]

I can't quite follow from your description how the factory is connected to the goods yard. Could you show a sketch of how they fit together?

[TheSignalEngineer]

A little bit more of the layout showing the arrangements with the connection to the BR sidings would clarify things.

 

The situation which existed for the cement depot at Greaves Siding in the 1970s may help. 

 

The works shunter ran up to the neck stop block with the empty tanks and they were collected by the BR trip to go to Banbury. The fulls arrived and were shunted onto the works loco. The  loco which had brought in the fulls went to Banbury to collect the empties. the works loco then positioned the fulls in the depot as necessary.

 

There are some details of working when it was used for cement production here https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/harbury-cement.htm

[spikey]

Right ho, here's how it connects to the layout ...

 

 

A is the track in from the approach to the goods yard.  B is the headshunt.  A, B and the point off to the private sidings are in place, and I don't want to move them.

 

Feed into private sidings will be gated at some point near C, so BR loco doesn't go any further to the right, and Ruston doesn't go further left.

 

I could probably make life easier for myself if I forgot about the gate and all shunting was done by the BR loco, but then I'd have no justification for ordering the Ruston, which if for no other reason, I need to work future expansion of the factory rail network.  (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

[Zomboid]

I'd expect the BR loco to shove the wagons through the gate into the industry, then either take the outbound wagons, or just clear off. The industry shunter will then work the yard and eventually make up an outgoing train, which a BR loco will then turn up to collect, and the cycle repeats.

 

The headhunt will need to be accessible to both BR and the industry locos.

 

No need for a run round.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'd expect the BR loco to shove the wagons through the gate into the industry, then either take the outbound wagons, or just clear off. The industry shunter will then work the yard and eventually make up an outgoing train, which a BR loco will then turn up to collect, and the cycle repeats.

 

The headhunt will need to be accessible to both BR and the industry locos.

 

No need for a run round.

 

But the headshunt is on BR territory so the industrial might not be allowed out there.

 

The other way, avoiding a runround loop is to have a short siding parallel to the headshunt for the Ruston to take refuge on while the BR loco pushes the wagons in.

[Flying Pig]

...

 

I could probably make life easier for myself if I forgot about the gate and all shunting was done by the BR loco, but then I'd have no justification for ordering the Ruston, which if for no other reason, I need to work future expansion of the factory rail network.  (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

It would be ok to have the BR loco exchanging wagons, but they'll need moving about the site in the course of normal operations, which is why a works shunter is needed here and was so common in real life. In modern terms, the Ruston is more of a forklift than a delivery truck.

 

You haven't included the BR sidings on your sketch, but I'm suspecting they may be in the area below the factory sidings and thus prevent you from laying an additional spur as suggested by Joseph_Pestell. If this is so, just declare one of the sidings in the complex as the exchange siding and have the BR loco work it, with the Ruston tucked away on one of the other two.

 

BTW, for operational interest, using two out of three sidings just to exchange traffic seems limiting and the more spots you have about the site to shunt the more play value.

[spikey]

Yes indeed, the headshunt's on BR territory, so the BR loco stays left of point C in the above diagrams and the Ruston stays right of it.

 

The goods yard is actually in the area above and to the left of A-B, i.e. that headshunt's parallel to the bottom-most yard siding.  So there is room for a spur parallel to the headshunt, and it's finally dawning on me what the advantage would be i.e. the Ruston could stay to the left of the wagons at all times ...

 

 

I can always apply Rule One, but just out of interest, wouldn't that make the new left-hand point to to the new spur common to both BR and the factory?  Is that kosher?

Edited January 11, 2019 by spikey

[TheSignalEngineer]

Is B used for anything other than getting wagons into the Private Siding?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Yes indeed, the headshunt's on BR territory, so the BR loco stays left of point C in the above diagrams and the Ruston stays right of it.

 

The goods yard is actually in the area above and to the left of A-B, i.e. that headshunt's parallel to the bottom-most yard siding.  So there is room for a spur parallel to the headshunt, and it's finally dawning on me what the advantage would be i.e. the Ruston could stay to the left of the wagons at all times ...

 

 

I can always apply Rule One, but just out of interest, wouldn't that make the new left-hand point to to the new spur common to both BR and the factory?  Is that kosher?

Have you got room to put a small loco shed for the Ruston on the extra siding?

[spikey]

Is B used for anything other than getting wagons into the Private Siding?

 

Only as a place to park a train that's being made up as the goods yard is shunted.  It was originally just the "bottom" siding of the goods yard, but then I cleared space for the factory in the nearside corner of the layout.

 

On thinking further about the latest idea i.e. the short spur for the Ruston to sit in during arrivals and departures as it were and no run-round in the factory site, haven't we both introduced a complication in the new point being common to both BR and the factory?  If the BR loco can go over that point, why can't it shunt the factory sidings?  And in that case, why do I need the Ruston?

 

ETA - Ahah!  A shed and fuelling point for the Ruston is definitely a possibility.  But what about that left-hand point being common to both operators?

Edited January 11, 2019 by spikey

[Flying Pig]

It does sound like B is actually the exchange siding. If that is the case, I would expect the BR loco to simply propel wagons into it to avoid unnecessary running around (and possibly even additional loops on BR territory). Working the wagons from there would be the factory's problem. Here's one possible development of that idea:

 

 

The BR loco just pushes wagons onto the exchange siding at B and there's a runround on works territory for the Ruston to use. The dotted line shows how a second exchange siding could be worked in if the factory site expanded/got busier. The loco headshunt L at the left is drawn much too long and really only needs to be long enough for your biggest works shunter.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Flying Pig

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

.  But what about that left-hand point being common to both operators?

Not a problem, plemty of places where that happened.

[Stubby47]

To the north west of Mold, Flintshire, on the Denbigh Road, is the Alun Tin Plate works. Old maps of the area show the private sidings off the main line, these might be helpful.

 

Maps from National Maps of Scotland:

 

Photo from Britain from Above:

 

 

Notes:

The internal loop on the map is no longer present on the photo (but you can see the kink in the line where the point was).

Length between main line points is approx. 660ft, which is just over 8 1/2 ft in 4mm scale.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Stubby47

[spikey]

Studio_20190111_105112.jpg

 

The BR loco just pushes wagons onto the exchange siding at B and there's a runround on works territory for the Ruston to use. The dotted line shows how a second exchange siding could be worked in if the factory site expanded/got busier. The loco headshunt L at the left is drawn much too long and really only needs to be long enough for your biggest works shunter.

 

This is growing on me by the minute.  If you did that, where would you run the boundary fence of the factory and the gate(s) in it?

[Stubby47]

Images added to post #18.

Stu

[Joseph_Pestell]

Have you got room to put a small loco shed for the Ruston on the extra siding?

 

If you move the point that leads to the Ruston's spur a bit to the right, there is room to put the gate between that point and BR's point on the exchange siding.

 

But I also like the arrangement with the loop. That is almost a complete layout in itself.

[Flying Pig]

Gate as shown on the sketch - across line A. BR loco stays to the right of the wagons (as I assume it does when shunting the other sidings in the goods yard) and pushes them past the boundary onto line B which is on factory land.

 

This would of course form quite a nice self-contained layout, with a short fiddle siding behind the factory buildings to the right as a continuation of A. It's basically a "piano line" but more credible than some main line incarnations of that idea.

 

Edit: as we all insist on running big main line engines even on shunting layouts, this one can realistically accommodate anything that could appear on the pick up goods, albeit just shunting a few wagons onto the exchange siding.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Flying Pig

[spikey]

Well I do believe that between you, you've got me sorted out, so thank you very much indeed, gentlemen

[mdvle]

If the BR loco can go over that point, why can't it shunt the factory sidings?  And in that case, why do I need the Ruston?

Several possibilities

• operational necessity - it's not practical/cost effective to have to call up BR every time a wagon needs to be moved at the factory
• there could be low clearance, sharp curve (perhaps offscene), or trackwork that can't handle a mainline loco.

[The Johnster]

This was the case at Aberthaw Cement Works sidings; we could enter the premises for the length of a loco (Hymek or 37, 56xx in steam days)  but not pass the stop board.  Track was very lightly laid beyond this and a little Fowler did the work.