Semaphore signals on the West Highland Line

[young37215]

I am seeking help with information and a source of reference about the semaphores that controlled the WHL in the 1970's and 80's. Whilst there are many pictures around the internet that include semaphores, actual signal specific information and/or pictures is proving difficult to find. Can anyone give me some pointers?

 

By way of background, I require around 20 signals for my WHL4 layout  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119560-west-highland-line-v4/page6#entry3432083 

Many of the 20 will be MSE 26' lattice post upper quadrant home signals which I acquired several years ago. I aim to motorise the signals using servos and control them via an existing Megapoints network. I need additional signals to complete my requirements, particularly a number of home signals on 45' posts and 2 junction home signals. I think MSE make the components required, at worst they are a very acceptable representation. Ideally I would like to clarify what was in use on the WHL in more detail if I possibly can before I commit to buying additional signals. 

 

 

Base signal, diamond needs removing for most locations

 

 

Lower arm with hole where 0.25mm piano wire can be linked to a servo

 

 

0.5mm brass base plate which does not like my efforts to drill through it!

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by young37215

[iands]

Base signal, AWS indicator needs removing for most locations

 

Signals 030.JPG

 

 

AWS indicator? Are you referring to the white "diamond" on the signal post? It's not an AWS indicator, it is a reminder to the driver that the signaller is aware of a trains presence (via a track circuit) and that Rule 55 need not be carried out.

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, the West Highland.  I'm reasonably sure that, at least as far as running signals are concerned, it was wholly upper quadrant by the 1970s with lattice posts predominating if not exclusively the case.  The west Highland ExXtension was a little different as NB lower quadrant signals were still in use at Morar in 1969/70 (railway signal Co design I believe) and of course the WR Reading style bracket structures complete with finisas but UQ arms were in use at Mallaig.

[young37215]

AWS indicator? Are you referring to the white "diamond" on the signal post? It's not an AWS indicator, it is a reminder to the driver that the signaller is aware of a trains presence (via a track circuit) and that Rule 55 need not be carried out.

I have no idea why I was under the impression that the diamond was AWS related. In that sense the thread is achieving its aim in that I am now better informed. Given that most signals on the WHL did not have a diamond, does this mean that track circuits were not in place at WHL stations?

[iands]

I have no idea why I was under the impression that the diamond was AWS related. In that sense the thread is achieving its aim in that I am now better informed. Given that most signals on the WHL did not have a diamond, does this mean that track circuits were not in place at WHL stations?

 

No worries. I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on the WHL in particular, but no, not every signal would have a white diamond attached. The white diamonds would mostly be used on Absolute Block areas (but not exclusively), and then typically only the "station limits" would be track circuited. The "station limits" is a term used to define an area controlled by a signal box between the Home signal and the Section signal - it doesn't necessarily mean that a station is physically there.

 

Edited to remove an erroneous word that had crept into the text.

Edited January 13, 2019 by iands

[RailWest]

<pedant alert>

 

The purpose of the white diamond was to advise the driver of a train standing at that signal that he did not need to apply the relevant parts of Rule 55 under normal circumstances. The reason for it varied - although the most common in later years was the presence of a track-circuit, there might be a treadle, or (on double-track lines) Lock&Block working was in force.

 

</alert>

 

On single-track lines a train was exempt from Rule 55 if it was stood at the (outermost) Home and the driver was in possession of the staff/tablet/token for the section, so 'diamonds' were irrelevant anyway in such location. I know of one case at least (not WH) where no diamond was provided at the Home even though there was a TC in rear.

 

Also, TC were only relevant if they were in rear of the signal, so you might well have places where there were TCs on facings points (in lieu of lock bars), but no diamond on a signal that was in rear of the TC not in advance.

 

It would be worth checking also to what extent the WH examples were universal (or not) in having a black patch on the signal post behind the diamond for sighting contrast.

[young37215]

<pedant alert>

 

The purpose of the white diamond was to advise the driver of a train standing at that signal that he did not need to apply the relevant parts of Rule 55 under normal circumstances. The reason for it varied - although the most common in later years was the presence of a track-circuit, there might be a treadle, or (on double-track lines) Lock&Block working was in force.

 

</alert>

 

On single-track lines a train was exempt from Rule 55 if it was stood at the (outermost) Home and the driver was in possession of the staff/tablet/token for the section, so 'diamonds' were irrelevant anyway in such location. I know of one case at least (not WH) where no diamond was provided at the Home even though there was a TC in rear.

 

Also, TC were only relevant if they were in rear of the signal, so you might well have places where there were TCs on facings points (in lieu of lock bars), but no diamond on a signal that was in rear of the TC not in advance.

 

It would be worth checking also to what extent the WH examples were universal (or not) in having a black patch on the signal post behind the diamond for sighting contrast.

 

Thanks for the clarification; given the token operations on the WHL it seems reasonable to conclude that diamonds were not considered necessary. This is backed up by my finding where I can find the only signals with diamonds in the Fort William region.

 

Can anyone shed any light on the variety of heights of the WHL signals. Was there such a thing as a standard height signal? 

[beast66606]

Here's what I took on a visit to Crianlarich on 28/08/1981

 

Crianlarich Up Branch outer home, straight post, tubular steel, upper quadrant - on the line in from Oban

 

Crianlarich Down Main Home 2, lattice main and doll, left hand bracket, upper quadrant

 

Crianlarich up starter, tubular steel straight post upper quadrant and down home, lattice straight post upper quadrant

[beast66606]

And some of the box.

 

I think I have a more general shot of the box but it's not been scanned yet

 

 

 

[young37215]

Here's what I took on a visit to Crianlarich on 28/08/1981

 

Crianlarich Up Branch outer home, straight post, tubular steel, upper quadrant - on the line in from Oban

DAS001598.jpg

 

Crianlarich Down Main Home 2, lattice main and doll, left hand bracket, upper quadrant

DAS001599.jpg

 

Crianlarich up starter, tubular steel straight post upper quadrant and down home, lattice straight post upper quadrant

DAS001606.jpg

 

Fantastic pictures; thank you. I have never seen the outer home before, the others are more familiar. The 2 at the southern end of the station highlight my point on differing heights, the up starter is smaller than most and the down home is considerably taller. Can anyone explain the variations; is it purely down to sighting at the particular location?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Fantastic pictures; thank you. I have never seen the outer home before, the others are more familiar. The 2 at the southern end of the station highlight my point on differing heights, the up starter is smaller than most and the down home is considerably taller. Can anyone explain the variations; is it purely down to sighting at the particular location?

 

I am not sure how far along the Oban route your model covers. But of course that is not West Highland at all but Caledonian/LMS. Hence the very different signal.

[beast66606]

Fantastic pictures; thank you. I have never seen the outer home before, the others are more familiar. The 2 at the southern end of the station highlight my point on differing heights, the up starter is smaller than most and the down home is considerably taller. Can anyone explain the variations; is it purely down to sighting at the particular location?

 

It will almost certainly be due to sighting, a slim chance due to corrosion, over the years the view behind the signal will have  changed - trees growing, houses being built etc so the heights and arm positions change to increase the visibility to drivers.

 

Notice the down home has had the arm lowered down the post - this might have been done when it was converted to upper quadrant or ....

[beast66606]

I am not sure how far along the Oban route your model covers. But of course that is not West Highland at all but Caledonian/LMS. Hence the very different signal.

 

It could be a later addition to allow acceptance while a train is running on the WH route, or possibly the original was damaged or simply weather beaten and was replaced by a standard straight post.

[RailWest]

Curiously, from what I can see on the photo of the SB diagram, there appears to be a diamond marked on the post of the Up Home (No 2), despite there apparently being no TC in its rear and no requirement for such a sign if the block section was still EKT (was it at that time?).

 

It just goes to prove that nothing beats a good photograph of the actual signal, as there always seem to be the unexpected 'exceptions'...:-)

[The Stationmaster]

No worries. I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on the WHL in particular, but no, not every signal would have a white diamond attached. The white diamonds would mostly be used on Absolute Block areas (but not exclusively), and then typically only the "station limits" would be track circuited. The "station limits" is a term used to define an area controlled by a signal box between the Home signal and the Section signal - it doesn't necessarily mean that a station is physically there.

 

Edited to remove an erroneous word that had crept into the text.

 

Oh you youngsters!  One of the most common applications of a track circuit in Absolute Block areas, particularly after the 1930s and other than at facing points, was the provision of a track circuit in rear of the Home Signal as part of the block proving circuit (using Welwyn Control or similar arrangements to prove that a train had passed through the section after being accepted). So in fact that track circuit was not in Station Limits.  

 

On single-track lines a train was exempt from Rule 55 if it was stood at the (outermost) Home and the driver was in possession of the staff/tablet/token for the section, so 'diamonds' were irrelevant anyway in such location. I know of one case at least (not WH) where no diamond was provided at the Home even though there was a TC in rear.

 

 

 

Er not quite. According to Rule 55 if the Driver was in possession of the train staff or electric token on a single line and the train is brought to a stand at a stop signal (i.e. any stop signal) it was not necessary to remind a Signalman of the presence of the train in accordance with the usual time limits (2 minutes in clear weather) BUT if the train was detained 'for an unusually long time' then someone must go to the signalbox to remind the Signalman of the presence of the train. (unless of course the signal was plated with any of the relevant signs amending the basic procedure).

 

Now back to the West Highland.

[RailWest]

.....BUT if the train was detained 'for an unusually long time' then someone must go to the signalbox to remind the Signalman of the presence of the train....

 

 

Which is why originally I said "under normal circumstances"......but then forgot to repeat myself later :-) 

 

Must try harder......

 

E&OE etc :-)

[iands]

Oh you youngsters!  One of the most common applications of a track circuit in Absolute Block areas, particularly after the 1930s and other than at facing points, was the provision of a track circuit in rear of the Home Signal as part of the block proving circuit (using Welwyn Control or similar arrangements to prove that a train had passed through the section after being accepted). So in fact that track circuit was not in Station Limits.  

 

 

I stand corrected and thanks for the clarification Mike.

 

PS - many thanks for describing me as a "youngster", you have made my day and will be my bestest friend for the rest of the day!

[Geoff Endacott]

Does a double diamond on a signal post mean that the driver should stop for a drink?

 

Geoff Endacott

[RailWest]

Does a double diamond on a signal post mean that the driver should stop for a drink?

 

Geoff Endacott

Not unless he wanted to get the sack ! On the other hand, a 'T' sign might prove tempting......:-)

[Martin Shaw]

A thought if I may, the signalling at Crianlarich was significantly modified upon closure of the C&O to the east in 1965, and the section westwards extended to Dalmally. To allow for free acceptance when a train was accepted from Tyndrum Upper an additional outer home signal was provided which is the signal in Beast's pic. Electric token working was still in use in 1981 and I believe the situation with the Rule 55 exemption on the diagram was that there was a TC there before and when the diagram was altered the diamond removal was overlooked, or, the diagram had  an addition that it didn't warrant.

Regards

Martin

[Bon Accord]

Rather incredibly considering it's status and that it was scheduled for closure, certain modernisations did take place on the Callander & Oban and this included replacement of lower quadrant signals and lattic posts with BR tubular posts and upper quadrant signals right into the years immediately preceeding closure.

I'm away from home at the moment but one of my books contains a picture of a new and old signal together on the route between Callander and Crianlarich with the new tubular post signal not yet in service (I think it is a distant). I'm pretty sure it's in "The Last Days of Steam in the Scottish Highlands" for anyone who might have a copy.

[Stephen Freeman]

There are some photos on the web, one of which in the 1970s seems to feature some WR tubular post signal brackets! In fact I seem to recall that some were used elsewhere in Scotland.as well. Pretty sure Mike (The Stationmaster) has commented on this before.

[young37215]

There are some photos on the web, one of which in the 1970s seems to feature some WR tubular post signal brackets! In fact I seem to recall that some were used elsewhere in Scotland.as well. Pretty sure Mike (The Stationmaster) has commented on this before.

 

The up starter at Bridge of Orchy was a weird tubular affair, it was a single signal on what appeared to be a junction bracket. Other than this vagary all of the signals that I require for my layout are NBR lattice posts.

 

 

Signal heights are still causing me some confusion. I have a MSE 45' etch where the bracket measures 180 mm, a precise scale 45'. Yesterday I measured my existing MSE signals where the bracket measures 92mm, a 23'5" scale equivalent which I am surprised at because they were sold as 27'. With the finial they are 112 mm, a scale equivalent 27'5". It's not big deal, my signals look the part for the WHL and all work well. The reason I want to understand heights better is because I still need additional signals and I would like to get these as close to the real thing as I can. Whilst I understand there would be deviations for reasons of sighting and other operational issues, was there a common starting point? 

 

MSE sell 2 options, S002 as a 27' and S0023 as a 45'. Are these simply two sizes chosen by MSE allowing the modeller to cut to their required size as they see fit or do they reflect some sort of standard size?

 

Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far.

[beast66606]

The (up loop) signal at BoO is simple bracketed out for better sighting, it's not a junction signal, the bracket makes the arm clearer to the drivers sight line - there is a siding between the main post and the running line so it avoids confusion as to which line it applies to, there was a disc at the base of the main post which applied to the siding.

 

[RailWest]

Re signal heights, another issue to be wary of is that - certainly in cases where I have seen the sighting reports - the 'height' quoted by official records was usually that of the arm above rail level. The actual height of the post of course would be 'a bit more'  :-)  Although that tended to be a fairly standard-looking amount, it might vary depending upon whether (a) the arm was moved up or down a bit after installation and/or (b) the S&T used an available spare post that just happened to be longer than would otherwise have been necessary.

 

Chris

Edited January 15, 2019 by RailWest