4mm availability of shunt etc. signals for former GE in the 1930s?

[Bucoops]

I finally found a signalling diagram for the re-signalling of the former GE - the particular area I'm interested in is Shenfield. Colour light signalling was installed in 1933 with it extended to Ingatestone in 1937. My intended time is 1939 so at the moment I'm assuming no further significant changes had been made by then (probably wrong but it's a starting point!).

 

I knew that the searchlight signals were used - I wasn't entirely sure that 4 aspect ones were but that's confirmed. My first query - I know that Signalist produce suitable signal heads for these - http://signalist.co.uk/heads.html but are there any alternatives to compare with? The signalist SC1 DCC controller seems to get good writeups so I am thinking of using that.

 

I need to try and find some pictures of how the various heads are affixed to posts as the diagram shows multiple heads per post in places.

 

There's also a plethora of ground signals, calling on, shunt etc. - predominantly rotating disc but also some miniature semaphore. I'm aware of the MSE discs - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/gs008.pdf and also these bases https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZFF5ADK8N/lner-ground-signal?optionId=65243554 which look interesting because it appears to have a fibre optic guide built in - I want the signals to work and be lit which looks to be a bit more work with the MSE ones. I'm thinking perhaps combining the two may yield good results? As above - are there any other alternatives?

 

This is where I've fallen a bit flat - I haven't found anything for the miniature semaphores or also what the calling on and shunt ahead ones look like, let alone 4mm versions.  And then just for good measure there are also 2 aspect miniature colour lights (appear to be individual lamps, not searchlight).

 

Here's a chunk of the diagram showing a few of them (I'm not sure on the copyright so don't want to just pop the whole thing on) - I have one further query - I've circled in red a symbol - I *think* this means the signal has a telephone link to the signalbox, could someone confirm or correct me please?

 

Thank you all If anyone happens to have any Shenfield info I would be most appreciative!

Edited January 13, 2019 by Bucoops

[RailWest]

The ringed symbol is a 'D sign' - see http://www.railsigns.uk/sect9page1/sect9page1.html.

 

This meant that there was a fireman's call plunger, or similar device, at the signal. Telephones were indicated by other means.

 

Chris

[Bucoops]

The ringed symbol is a 'D sign' - see http://www.railsigns.uk/sect9page1/sect9page1.html.

 

This meant that there was a fireman's call plunger, or similar device, at the signal. Telephones were indicated by other means.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

Great thank you

 

I have a couple of photos that I purchased from the Great Eastern Railway Society - GERS. The copyright remains with them but they have kindly allowed me to pop a couple of crops up here. They have pushing 3000 photos available - very impressive! https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/home/sales/photograph-sales

 

First crop shows what i believe to be signals S103 and S110 (well, one pair of them - curiously the diagram shows two pairs of these signals one at the end of each a pair of platforms. Strange. What it shows however is the 4 aspect signals are made up of a pair of single round searchlight, not the combined version I was expecting!

 

 

The second one is zoomed in a long way - I believe it to be S63 and S65 - you an just make out the diamond marker (Rule 55 exemption as track circuited?) - and at platform level it looks like ground level signal 56?

 

[RailWest]

>>>What it shows however is the 4 aspect signals are made up of a pair of single round searchlight, not the combined version I was expecting....

 

But how else would you get a double-yellow if there was only one lens? 

 

Beyond that, GE is way outside my scope - hopefully someone else here will come along soon with more advice.....:-)

[Bucoops]

>>>What it shows however is the 4 aspect signals are made up of a pair of single round searchlight, not the combined version I was expecting....

 

But how else would you get a double-yellow if there was only one lens?

 

Beyond that, GE is way outside my scope - hopefully someone else here will come along soon with more advice.....:-)

Sorry I worded it badly - by combined I meant the two lenses are part of the same unit, e.g. SH2 on here rather than the two single SH1s http://signalist.co.uk/heads.html Edited January 13, 2019 by Bucoops

[Johann Marsbar]

These (presumably GE) semaphore ground signals survived at Cambridge into the early 1980's...

 

 

(though looking at it on here, the case appears to be marked LNER...- but might be a replacement?)

[RailWest]

Looking at the way that the arm appears to be in two parts, are these of the sort that had rubber ends?

[bécasse]

Looking at the way that the arm appears to be in two parts, are these of the sort that had rubber ends?

 

It rather looks like it, note that it is electrically worked.

[trapoint]

If my memory  serves me right these signals were  made in America then shipped here. Having two heads one above the other is very common in the US and fixing them to the side of the post is also common out there this meant the signal was permissive  or if the heads were in line with post it was a interlocked signal  ( controlled over here ). I am not sure why the LNER wanted this type between Gidea park and Shenfield  as the ones out to Chelmsford and Southend Victoria  were a different design.

[russ p]

I was wondering if some US models may be what you require

[Bucoops]

Thank you all The miniature one looks interesting - although if they took the time to install about 40 disc ones, why would two be these?

 

 

If my memory  serves me right these signals were  made in America then shipped here. Having two heads one above the other is very common in the US and fixing them to the side of the post is also common out there this meant the signal was permissive  or if the heads were in line with post it was a interlocked signal  ( controlled over here ). I am not sure why the LNER wanted this type between Gidea park and Shenfield  as the ones out to Chelmsford and Southend Victoria  were a different design.

 

Certainly the ones at Chelmsford had the combined sighting board (is that the right name for it?) - I tried to get one when they were taken out!

 

I think the offset ones are seperate signals for different routes but need to try and work that out for certain.

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you all The miniature one looks interesting - although if they took the time to install about 40 disc ones, why would two be these?

 

 

 

Certainly the ones at Chelmsford had the combined sighting board (is that the right name for it?) - I tried to get one when they were taken out!

 

I think the offset ones are seperate signals for different routes but need to try and work that out for certain.

 

The offset ones are indeed splitting signals but they are splitting 4 aspect signals with a completely separate head for the additional yellow.

 

The GE mainline had a fairly interesting mix of x colour light signals  which was partly a consequence of the work being done over an extended period due to interruption by the war and probably also a consequence of using kit from different contractors - Shenfield itself being fairly early on (1937).  As a result in the inner area you could find both searchlight (3 & 4 aspect) signals and signals with multi-lens heads depending on when the scheme had been commissioned and whose kit had been used for the job.

[Bucoops]

I've found a picture of another pair of miniature semaphores - which completely confused me until I found them - 52 and 60 - 

 

 

They look to be on a standard post, just smaller than usual arms.

[Johann Marsbar]

If any of the signals were of US manuacture, this website is a very good one that deals with US practice & the various types used....

 

https://www.railroadsignals.us/

[LNERGE]

 

These (presumably GE) semaphore ground signals survived at Cambridge into the early 1980's...

 

81-476.JPG

 

(though looking at it on here, the case appears to be marked LNER...- but might be a replacement?)

It says a little bit more than LNER on that signal <g>

Edited January 15, 2019 by LNERGE

[Suzie]

It might be worth a trip to Clacton (on the train) with a video camera to get a glimpse of a variety of signals including a 4-aspect searchlight and splitting (admittedly with a miniature yellow for the diverging) on the run in from Burrs Road level crossing. On the platforms you can see 3-aspect searchlight and motorised disc.

[Bucoops]

Thank you all - the Clacton searchlights (which I have a few pics of) were installed later so there's no guarantee they are the same design. You would think that finding a front on photo of one of the Shenfield ones would be easy - not so far though!

 

I had a little tot-up:

Type	                                                Qty
2 Aspect Colour Light Miniature R.G. (Multi Unit Type)	3
2 Aspect Colour Light R.G. 	                        5
2 Aspect Colour Light Y.G.	                        3
3 Aspect Colour Light R.Y.G.	                        9
3 Aspect Colour Light R.Y.Y/Y.	                        1
4 Aspect Colour Light R.Y.Y/Y.G.	                15
Banner "Calling-on"	                                2
Banner "Shunt"	                                        2
Ground Disc (Red)	                                23
Semaphore Miniature	                                7

I'm beginning to think modelling Berney Arms might be a better idea!

[Suzie]

At least you won't need any feathers...

[Bucoops]

At least you won't need any feathers...

 

True!

[Bucoops]

So I have found a picture showing the front of some of the searchlights - the shroud is different to all the ones on that US site kindly linked to, and also different to the two Signalist designs. Ugh.

 

 

Have emailed Signalist to see if he can do this variation.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Bucoops

[Johann Marsbar]

So I have found a picture showing the front of some of the searchlights - the shroud is different to all the ones on that US site kindly linked to, and also different to the two Signalist designs. Ugh.

 

Did all the signals have that sort of shroud, or was it just that set which needed more protection from a low sun angle at times of the day?. They are certainly deeper covers than any signals of that type I've seen elsewhere in the world, including this familar sounding location........

 

 

EDIT: I did have a look at some photos I took around Melbourne, VIC, back in 2003, and found that there were some searchlight signals at Spencer Street station that had shrouds more like the Shenfield ones. Might be worth seeing if there are any Australian HO model signal manufacturers out there!

Edited January 19, 2019 by Johann Marsbar

[bécasse]

So I have found a picture showing the front of some of the searchlights - the shroud is different to all the ones on that US site kindly linked to, and also different to the two Signalist designs. Ugh.

 

 

Do you have any clue as to the date of that photograph? I have a suspicion that they are emergency ARP hoods which would have been installed in approximately September 1940. While I am not certain what the situation on the LNER was, I do know that the Southern had to install such hoods on all of its (quite significant number of) colour light signals once it was identified that, even with the low-intensity switch thrown, they could be clearly seen at night from the air. On the Southern the work was considered so urgent that installation work continued round the clock with technicians working 12-hour days 7-days a week (and even during actual air raids) until the task was completed. It is unlikely that the LNER would have considered ARP needs back in 1937 when the signals were installed.

[Bucoops]

Thanks Johann Will have a look.

 

Do you have any clue as to the date of that photograph? I have a suspicion that they are emergency ARP hoods which would have been installed in approximately September 1940. While I am not certain what the situation on the LNER was, I do know that the Southern had to install such hoods on all of its (quite significant number of) colour light signals once it was identified that, even with the low-intensity switch thrown, they could be clearly seen at night from the air. On the Southern the work was considered so urgent that installation work continued round the clock with technicians working 12-hour days 7-days a week (and even during actual air raids) until the task was completed. It is unlikely that the LNER would have considered ARP needs back in 1937 when the signals were installed.

 

The caption in the book I found it in says June 1939 so slap bang where I'm setting my layout. An interesting thought though - were the "clouds of war" gathering by then - I think so, so perhaps they are replacement hoods. Haven't found any pictures closer to the install date.

[bécasse]

Thanks Johann Will have a look.

 

 

The caption in the book I found it in says June 1939 so slap bang where I'm setting my layout. An interesting thought though - were the "clouds of war" gathering by then - I think so, so perhaps they are replacement hoods. Haven't found any pictures closer to the install date.

 

The railways started thinking about ARP in 1938 but didn't do much that was positive (beyond starting to store redundant items rather than actually scrapping them) until the Munich crisis in late September suddenly concentrated minds. (So suddenly in fact that several under-river tunnels on the London Tube system were closed in the middle of the evening rush hour so that concrete "plugs" could be inserted at each end of them.) As I half-stated, the SR immediate response for colour light signals was to insert low intensity (dimming) switches in all the circuits, but the SR already had a very large number of colour light signals and that response was probably the most practical at the time even though it proved insufficient. It is quite possible that the LNER, with far fewer such signals, would have gone immediately for a long hood solution (although I think the ability to dim would have been required as well), in which case the changes would probably have been implemented during 1939 - it could even be that your photo was originally taken to illustrate the work.

 

Unfortunately, relatively few records seem to have been kept of the detail of ARP work, even at the time (let alone archived). I only know the detail of the work on the Southern because it was described to me well over fifty years ago by someone who had actually been stuck up on signal gantries during air raids doing it.

 

(Incidentally, road traffic lights were masked with two small slits in the form of a cross cut into the mask, they were already much lower intensity than railway c/l signals.)

[The Stationmaster]

The railways started thinking about ARP in 1938 but didn't do much that was positive (beyond starting to store redundant items rather than actually scrapping them) until the Munich crisis in late September suddenly concentrated minds. (So suddenly in fact that several under-river tunnels on the London Tube system were closed in the middle of the evening rush hour so that concrete "plugs" could be inserted at each end of them.) As I half-stated, the SR immediate response for colour light signals was to insert low intensity (dimming) switches in all the circuits, but the SR already had a very large number of colour light signals and that response was probably the most practical at the time even though it proved insufficient. It is quite possible that the LNER, with far fewer such signals, would have gone immediately for a long hood solution (although I think the ability to dim would have been required as well), in which case the changes would probably have been implemented during 1939 - it could even be that your photo was originally taken to illustrate the work.

 

Unfortunately, relatively few records seem to have been kept of the detail of ARP work, even at the time (let alone archived). I only know the detail of the work on the Southern because it was described to me well over fifty years ago by someone who had actually been stuck up on signal gantries during air raids doing it.

 

(Incidentally, road traffic lights were masked with two small slits in the form of a cross cut into the mask, they were already much lower intensity than railway c/l signals.)

 

A large amount of wartime stuff including ARP related was held in the archive at Porchester Terrace near Paddington but I don't know what happened to it when that archive was closed down although I'm that around a full container load of stuff was unofficially saved.