ECML carraige formations late 1970s

[MarshLane]

Afternoon all,

I have looked through this forum over the past 24 hours, but havent found anything that covers the above, so i'll ask the question!  Taking the late 1970s - 1977-1979 - specifically, would the consist of both inter-regional (KGX to Hull, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh) trains have been fairly standard with Mk2s (presumably Mk1 buffets/restaurant cars) or were there still specifics?  I've seen various shots of Deltics on different workings that appear to be air-con Mk2s, but although all the various types had been built by this point, would they have been Mk2d, e or f?

 

I know many of the local services, such as Sheffield-Hull and Cleethorpes/Hull-Manchester were Mk1 stock still.

 

Any help is, as ever, appreciated.

 

Rich

[Flood]

Deltics and the first 20 Class 47/4s had issues when working with Mk2e stock. The Eastern's allocation of air-cons was therefore Mk2d and Mk2f with, as you say, Mk1 BGs and catering stock. Pressure vent Mk2a stock could deputise in an air-con rake if needed - I have seen a photo of an air-con rake with a Mk2a BFK which is useful because a Mk2d BFK is a bit of a task to make.

 

Until the HSTs really took hold the ECML rakes used Restaurant Buffets, Restaurant Unclassified, Kitchen Buffets and Miniature Buffets (normally as a replacement) as needed by the Marshalling Booklets. Mk1 Restaurant Cars based on either TSO stock, or later renumbered FO stock, were also used.

[Bomag]

Most of the ER HST fleet would have been delivered by early 1979 and the only loco hauled day stock would have been the York semi fasts. 

 

The ECML Mk2 a/c stock was mostly MK2Ds with some later Mk2F strengthening lots of TSO's (and possibly FO's). I cannot see any Mk2Es allocated from new.

 

The sets varied but by the end of the 70's it could be BSO, TSOs, RB/RU(B), FO, FK, BFK  with the occasional BG instead.

[MarshLane]

Thanks for the initial replies chaps...

 

Deltics and the first 20 Class 47/4s had issues when working with Mk2e stock. The Eastern's allocation of air-cons was therefore Mk2d and Mk2f with, as you say, Mk1 BGs and catering stock. Pressure vent Mk2a stock could deputise in an air-con rake if needed - I have seen a photo of an air-con rake with a Mk2a BFK which is useful because a Mk2d BFK is a bit of a task to make.

 

Until the HSTs really took hold the ECML rakes used Restaurant Buffets, Restaurant Unclassified, Kitchen Buffets and Miniature Buffets (normally as a replacement) as needed by the Marshalling Booklets. Mk1 Restaurant Cars based on either TSO stock, or later renumbered FO stock, were also used.

 

Course, I'd forgotten about the Generators - that opens up the possibilities from a motive power point of view a bit!  I've followed your Aberdeen Kirkhil layout for a long while Flood, congratulations to you and your colleagues on a superb layout!   Do you happen to have any of the marshalling books - if so, if you have any time, would it be possible to give a couple of example rakes?  I'll keep my eyes open on eBay for them - although Southern Region books seem to come up, i've yet to see an Eastern region one.

 

Most of the ER HST fleet would have been delivered by early 1979 and the only loco hauled day stock would have been the York semi fasts. 

 

The ECML Mk2 a/c stock was mostly MK2Ds with some later Mk2F strengthening lots of TSO's (and possibly FO's). I cannot see any Mk2Es allocated from new.

 

The sets varied but by the end of the 70's it could be BSO, TSOs, RB/RU(B), FO, FK, BFK  with the occasional BG instead.

 

Thanks Bomag - you've helped nail down the time period to probably 1976-1978 then.  I wanted to include 1978 as it was the year I was born .. not that I remember any of it.  I know we didn't have any Pullman sets on the ECML at that time, but am I correct in thinking that a couple of the '254' HST sets had an extra restaurant or First Class coach for things like the Tees-Tyne Pullman?

 

Presumably the average loco-hauled set was 8-10 coaches in length?

[jonny777]

Afternoon all,

I have looked through this forum over the past 24 hours, but havent found anything that covers the above, so i'll ask the question!  Taking the late 1970s - 1977-1979 - specifically, would the consist of both inter-regional (KGX to Hull, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh) trains have been fairly standard with Mk2s (presumably Mk1 buffets/restaurant cars) or were there still specifics?  I've seen various shots of Deltics on different workings that appear to be air-con Mk2s, but although all the various types had been built by this point, would they have been Mk2d, e or f?

 

I know many of the local services, such as Sheffield-Hull and Cleethorpes/Hull-Manchester were Mk1 stock still.

 

Any help is, as ever, appreciated.

 

Rich

 

 

 

I would recommend browsing through the many ECML photos on David Ford's excellent thread. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-15th-january/page-1

[robertcwp]

There is a yahoo group with the name BR loco-hauled coaching stock (or very similar - my membership ended when I deleted my Yahoo email...).  The information you seek will almost certainly be there. 

I have the LMR train consists from several years.

JF

Link below. All the ECML loco-hauled carriage workings for the period are available there in PDF.

[MarshLane]

I would recommend browsing through the many ECML photos on David Ford's excellent thread. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-15th-january/page-1

 

Thanks Jonny - id forgotten about DaveF's thread, I use to look at that a lot .. looks like i have a bit of catching up to do.

 

 

Link below. All the ECML loco-hauled carriage workings for the period are available there in PDF.

 

Thanks Robert, very kind of you.

[Bomag]

Thanks for the initial replies chaps...

 

 

Course, I'd forgotten about the Generators - that opens up the possibilities from a motive power point of view a bit!  I've followed your Aberdeen Kirkhil layout for a long while Flood, congratulations to you and your colleagues on a superb layout!   Do you happen to have any of the marshalling books - if so, if you have any time, would it be possible to give a couple of example rakes?  I'll keep my eyes open on eBay for them - although Southern Region books seem to come up, i've yet to see an Eastern region one.

 

 

Thanks Bomag - you've helped nail down the time period to probably 1976-1978 then.  I wanted to include 1978 as it was the year I was born .. not that I remember any of it.  I know we didn't have any Pullman sets on the ECML at that time, but am I correct in thinking that a couple of the '254' HST sets had an extra restaurant or First Class coach for things like the Tees-Tyne Pullman?

 

Presumably the average loco-hauled set was 8-10 coaches in length?

 

The first 20 ER HSTs sets had a TRSB and TRUK (four passenger bays) two TFs and four TSs. These only lasted until the early 80's. The two Pullman sets (Yorkshire & TT) came later (85 ish) and were 2xTF, TRUK, TF, TRFB (407xx, three passenger bays), 2xTS and a TGS, they were later extended to 9 cars with an extra TS.

[Titan]

 

 

Thanks Bomag - you've helped nail down the time period to probably 1976-1978 then.  I wanted to include 1978 as it was the year I was born .. not that I remember any of it.  I know we didn't have any Pullman sets on the ECML at that time

 

 

We did, Last run for loco hauled was a farewell special on 20th May 1978:

 

[MarshLane]

The first 20 ER HSTs sets had a TRSB and TRUK (four passenger bays) two TFs and four TSs. These only lasted until the early 80's. The two Pullman sets (Yorkshire & TT) came later (85 ish) and were 2xTF, TRUK, TF, TRFB (407xx, three passenger bays), 2xTS and a TGS, they were later extended to 9 cars with an extra TS.

 

Thanks for that.  Was there no TGS vehicle on the first 20 originally then?  I had always assumed a TGS had to be in the consist for a handbrake incase both powercars were removed on depot? There again, I suppose the set would be chocked in that situation if no handbrake was onboard.  Do you know what the formation beyond those first 20 was, and a rough time period of when the 21st set was delivered?  I am just wondering if (for an ECML model) two different formations could be put together for the 77/78 period?

 

We did, Last run for loco hauled was a farewell special on 20th May 1978:

 

 

Hi Titan, I'd totally forgotten those Mk1 Pullman coaches in reverse blue/grey livery.  What services were they on?  Will have to do a bit of research on those - I presume the likes of the YP and TTP until the HSTs came in?

[RLBH]

Thanks for that.  Was there no TGS vehicle on the first 20 originally then?  I had always assumed a TGS had to be in the consist for a handbrake incase both powercars were removed on depot? There again, I suppose the set would be chocked in that situation if no handbrake was onboard.

 

The TGS was created relatively late on in the HST construction program - the final batch (for NE-SW) had them from new, but the first three batches didn't. The power cars were originally considered a Driving Motor Brake car within the DMU formation, and were designed with the necessary facilities for the guard to perform his duties. Unfortunately having a Valenta for a neighbour made for less than idea accommodation, and the TGS was designed to relieve the situation.

 

There's a good description of the evolution here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-252-253-and-254.38938/#post-536901

[Commoner]

TGS vehicles started to find their way into ER formations from October 1980 onwards.  The first diagrams for ER HST sets formed with a TRUB were introduced in October 1978.  Higher up the thread you mentioned that some sets contained an additional TF and a respondent confirmed correctly that this occurred when dedicated Pullman sets were formed for the Yorkshire and Tyne-Tees Pullman services.  However, following the delivery and introduction of TGS vehicles to the WR sets from April 1980 onwards a number of TS vehicles became spare.  A few of these ex-WR vehicles were used to strengthen some ER sets to 2+9 formations over the summer period of 1980.  These were usually TRUK+TRSB sets confined to out and back diagrams on the Anglo-Scottish services.

[MarshLane]

Link below. All the ECML loco-hauled carriage workings for the period are available there in PDF.

 

Robert,

Thanks for this - i have downloaded the 76,77 and 78 ECML diagrams from the link you gave.  So i'll spend sometime wandering through those and researching coach formations.  I do not envisage having lots of rakes on my layout, but three or four that could represent the 'average' formation would be nice.

 

Cheers

Rich

[cpbell]

I take it that Mk 2f RFBs, as modelled recently by Bachmann, weren't used on the ECML in this period?

[Bomag]

I take it that Mk 2f RFBs, as modelled recently by Bachmann, weren't used on the ECML in this period?

 

RFBs weren't coverted until the late 1980's. The B/G version is as preserved.

[cpbell]

RFBs weren't coverted until the late 1980's. The B/G version is as preserved.

Thanks!

[cpbell]

Do we know if Bachmann are producing the BFK or the FK?

[Flood]

Do we know if Bachmann are producing the BFK or the FK?

These were Mk2d build and Bachmann are currently only producing Mk2f.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There were still loco-hauled peak services from KX - Peterborough in 1979. Usually Cl.31s and Mk1 stock.

[MarshLane]

These were Mk2d build and Bachmann are currently only producing Mk2f.

 

I think its back to the old Airfix Mk2s for the Mk2d isnt it?

[Flood]

I think its back to the old Airfix Mk2s for the Mk2d isnt it?

You can either go the whole hog like Big Andy and fit lazerglaze, etched window frames and the tumblehome from Triang-Hornby Mk2 coaches

( ) or you can just give them a repaint as Glenn did to the stock I converted to Mk2e:

 

note the use of two of the strange bluey coloured windows to simulate where the glazing has been replaced the wrong way round.

 

Of course being "real modellers" then a Mk2d BFK will be a doddle to you all :

 

 

and as finished:

 

 

My FK is just a Airfix FO with a Lima interior and 0.5mm wire for the corridor window handrails:

Edited January 18, 2019 by Flood

[MarshLane]

You can either go the whole hog like Big Andy and fit lazerglaze, etched window frames and the tumblehome from Triang-Hornby Mk2 coaches

( ) or you can just give them a repaint as Glenn did to the stock I converted to Mk2e:

 

Mk2E 5869 (1).jpg

Mk2E 5869 (2).jpg

note the use of two of the strange bluey coloured windows to simulate where the glazing has been replaced the wrong way round.

 

Of course being "real modellers" then a Mk2d BFK will be a doddle to you all :

 

Mk2D BFK (1) cuts.JPG

Mk2D BFK (2) cuts.JPG

 

and as finished:

Mk2d BFK (3).JPG

Mk2d BFK (4).JPG

 

 

My FK is just a Airfix FO with a Lima interior and 0.5mm wire for the corridor window handrails:

Mk2D FK Blue (1).JPG

 

Thanks Flood - I suspect somewhere in the middle, perhaps lazerglaze windows with a repaint!  Plus possibly a rewheel either to get rid of plastic wheel sets or for the move to P4 if I really do that that step!  A little undecided at the moment.

 

I am trying to work out what you did to the BFK, and other than a cut-shut I cannot quite see whats different!  I need to go searching for photos i think!

[robertcwp]

TRUB set in 1979 - note also the lack of exhaust deflectors on the power car:

43099+43122_York_26-6-79 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

TRSB+TRUK set also with TGS in 1981 - note how the TRSB was moved next to the TRUK circa 1980: 

HST_Selby_c1981_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

TRUB set with TGS in 1981:

43108-43106_KX-Midd_ChalonersWhin_2-9-81 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[robertcwp]

 

Hi Titan, I'd totally forgotten those Mk1 Pullman coaches in reverse blue/grey livery.  What services were they on?  Will have to do a bit of research on those - I presume the likes of the YP and TTP until the HSTs came in?

The Tees-Tyne Pullman was withdrawn in 1976. The Hull Pullman and Yorkshire Pullman lasted until May 1978.

[MarshLane]

TRUB set in 1979 - note also the lack of exhaust deflectors on the power car:

 

Thanks Robert,

I must have a wander through your Flickr account - its one i've come across in the past, but in all honesty being on a 24" iMac, the screen on which is 4000 pixels wide, the images being only 640 pixels wide are so small its difficult to see them, although i can totally understand why people do only upload small images.

 

Nice shots of the blue and grey HST.  That may yet have to be the second project on the list - the big question being whether to adapt Lima Mk3s (which I always thought were good for their time) or to use the latest Oxford Rail Mk3a, and remove the buffers - were there any other external differences?  One of these days i'll look at starting a thread for the future layout - just want to make a bit of progress with it first!

 

The Bachmann blue & grey Mk1s could put in appaerance on the Hull and Yorkshire Pullmans then in my 1976-1978 time period.

 

Can I just say thanks to everyone on this thread for your input, it really is useful, and I have learnt a lot.  Please do keep contributing!

 

Rich