We Don't Know How Lucky We Are

[The Johnster]

AFAIK the WCML 'non stop' services had crew relief and a brief stop at Carlisle Upperby, this continuing into the diesel era.  Some class 40s were built with water pickup gear to replenish the steam heating header tanks on these long runs.  But I'm pretty sure the LMS built at least one corridor tender for a Coronation.

 

The LNER went for corridor tenders and relief crew in a reserved first class compartment next the loco.  The changeover point was between Thirsk and Northallerton in each direction, and the crews worked 'double home', lodging in London or Edinburgh before returning the following day.  The relieved crew were given bottled beer and a meal from the restaurant car, though whether this was just  normal practice or officially endorsed I do not know; there was certainly nothing in the rules in those days to prevent it!

 

A relieving crew which had travelled down to Upperby on a non stop train from Euston, or up from Glasgow for that matter, would be already tired from the motion of the loco by the time they took over, and could not have been expected to perform well.  Balancing yourself against the motion of a steam loco at speed is physically exhausting in itself, especially when there's nowhere to sit!  When 'Top Gear' featured a race between a Jaguar XK120, a Vincent Black Shadow motorbike, and Tornado from KX to Edinburgh, Jeremy Clarkson rode on Tornado all the way though the crew was relieved (I don't mean just to see the back of him!).  You should have seen the state of him when he got off at Waverley!

 

Tornado would have won but for being pathed behind a stopper running in to Waverley, incidentally, but honours went to Captain Slow in the jag.  The Hamster gave up on the Vincent somewhere in the North East of England, shaken to bits.

[sirwilliamfrs]

"But I'm pretty sure the LMS built at least one corridor tender for a Coronation."

 

There were no corridor tenders built specifically for the Pacifics but the LMS had one as part of the Mobile Test Plant as detailed here:- http://www.traintesting.com/MTU.htm

[Pete the Elaner]

AFAIK the WCML 'non stop' services had crew relief and a brief stop at Carlisle Upperby, this continuing into the diesel era.  Some class 40s were built with water pickup gear to replenish the steam heating header tanks on these long runs.  But I'm pretty sure the LMS built at least one corridor tender for a Coronation.

 

 

I have never seen an LMS corridor tender documented anywhere. Coronation Scot was scheduled to stop at Carlisle, so building a special tender just for a non-stop run seems a bit unnecessary.

 

 

 

Tornado would have won but for being pathed behind a stopper running in to Waverley, incidentally, but honours went to Captain Slow in the jag. 

It also had to keep stopping for water. These stops were never required when the water troughs were there. Without these 'modern delays', it would easily have won.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Pete the Elaner

[Il Grifone]

Hello Rob and chums,

 

I fished out my old TTR stuff and took some pictures just to add to your 'We don't know how lucky were are ..... ' thread. The picture quality is not up to much - I don't have anywhere 'special' for photos and this time of year natural light is lacking and I was too close to the object so there's too much reflection (flare?) from the flash (willing to learn techniques BTW ).

 

These are the first two locos that I ever had, the blue one and then the 'American switcher'. I boo-booed in the earlier post - they came with three and not two coaches. The American ones have lighting inside them - very advanced for c.1955. Spot also the original speed controller - 14v AC output - click twice to change direction. (I still don't understand how a small AC motor works.)

 

 

 

I've also placed the 'Duke of Gloucester' with three coaches alongside the blue loco (on the box lid it shows the loco with 4472 on the side) just to capture the evolution (OK 65 years between them so one would expect some improvements.)

 

 

omis

 

Food for thought.

 

I will leave this on the table: Can you have as much 'fun' with the RTR of today .... mmmmm?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

As I boy, I always wanted the TTR American stock, but had to 'make do' with Hornby Dublo. 

 

I've got them now of course, including the 2 rail DC version of the switcher made for 'export only'.

The AC (or more accurately 'universal', as the motors don't care about polarity and will run just as well on DC) motors work just the same as DC motors, except that they have an electromagnei rather than a permanent one. Reversing is carried out by reversing the field winding relative to the armature. That is what all that complicated switching in the cab does. It the case of Trix, the armature is reversed, for Märklin it is the field. The reversing is also accuated differently by interrupting the current for Trix and by a high voltage pulse for Märklin. Just to ensure that different makes won't run together! This was the big bugbear of the early days and possibly an even bigger "You've never had it so good" than todays vastly improved accuracy and detail. Universal track was just awful!

 

Costwise, things aren't that more expensive today. A Dublo Pacific was around £4 (around £100 in today's devalued currency) and the Trix 'Scotsman' was a luxury item at £10 (£200-250). Of course they were made in this country (or Germany for the 'Scotsman' chassis - it merely states "Foreign"!), whereas today's models are subsidised by cheap Far Eastern labour, though you wouldn't think so by the cost of some of the more ancient toolings still available.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Il Grifone

[robmcg]

As to WCML steam the 1936 6201 5hr 43 min non-stop Euston-Glasgow had two firemen but one driver   Tom Clark? of Crewe North who later received an OBE after driving a train for the King to or from Scotland.  The knowledge skill and subtlety require for all crews was high, as physical fitness and alertness, but I'm sure there were 'softer' rosters for enginemen who wanted a better home life.

 

I guess O S Nock's earlier books give the best impression, I have read many of them and enjoy them greatly. 

 

I don't think many engine crews were drinkers, and there may be some equivalence in that sense to aircraft crews these days, I have a US friend or two who flew in the Vietnam war era and one described delivering new jets across the Pacific as long periods of boredom interrupted by sheer terror and fear of death.  Modern civil aircraft also require fitness and intelligence, but I doubt there is any true equivalent to the discomforts of a steam loco, especially one with a poor ride.

[The Johnster]

No

 

I have never seen an LMS corridor tender documented anywhere. Coronation Scot was scheduled to stop at Carlisle, so building a special tender just for a non-stop run seems a bit unnecessary.

 

It also had to keep stopping for water. These stops were never required when the water troughs were there. Without these 'modern delays', it would easily have won

Not to mention having to use the slow lines for the first part of the journey...

 

This is of course balanced by the road improvements on the A1, dual carriageway motorway or near standard to Newcastle, which also did not give a fair reflection of what an XK120 could have realistically managed in 1948, the date the race purported to be recreating.  

 

Good fun, though, and fair play to Clarkson for standing on a footplate for all that time, as well as putting a few rounds on for the camera.  My favourite moment is when Tornado starts a wheelslip and, in a nanosecond, the 3 professionals move as one for the regulator irrespective of whose job it is, while the idiot asks what's happening...

Edited January 21, 2019 by The Johnster

[robmcg]

For those who had a Hornby Dublo 'Duchess of Montrose', here is the 'new' version which I bought from Kernows 10 days ago, it's a better buying experience than the 'Princess Elizabeth' I sent back to them 8 days ago and of course have not received word of its arrival.

 

I have darkened and de-saturated some of the colour to make the picture as near as I can to normal daytime room lighting.

 

 

It's a very impressive model, runs smoothly straight out of the box, which to be fair both 6221 bathtub models did too, pity about the handrails missing.

 

Another pic with no particular editing, also shown in the Duchess thread.

 

 

and another with the green darkened here and there, ... as you do <g>

 

 

Actually I have been stuck on bedrest these last 12 days with an old pressure sore wound which broke down, so the Duchess sat around for 4 days un-photographed...  Explains why enjoyed being up in the wheelchair for an hour today!

 

I have also requested Kernows to send a checked and tested 6221 'Princess Elizabeth' instead of a refund....    must be the phase of the moon. 

 

Cheers   

Edited January 22, 2019 by robmcg

[BWsTrains]

I think this applies...

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

 

 

JF

Priceless,

 

I didn't realise the sketch pre-dated Monty Python,

 

Thanks

[robmcg]

Priceless,

 

I didn't realise the sketch pre-dated Monty Python,

 

Thanks

 

Luxury.

 

 

As is the very rare occurrence of me posting a completely unedited photo which has nothing but natural light, although it has been cropped and re-sized..

 

Of course the Canon camera has all kinds of settings in its internals, so Yorkshiremen qnd others can argue over whether it a green or blue engine... or the lighting from the window is unnatural.. 6.30pm cloudy bright NZ summer.  I don't personally think there is any such thing as a correct colour, lighting and real life condition are never constant.

 

The camera is a half-frame Canon EOS-M compact (sensor half the size of a 35mm camera), about 6 years old, with the standard 18-55mm zoom lens set at 30mm, f29 and 25 second exposure IS0 100, standard colour balance. I think it is about an 18MP camera the standard landscape format gives JPEG images usually around 5.5MB   Whatever happened to my beloved 6 x 6 twin lens reflex roll film camera and Agfa Brovira Rapid paper prints...? (sob) 

 

lovely model !.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by robmcg

[Hroth]

Luxury.

 

 

As is the very rare occurrence of me posting a completely unedited photo which has nothing but natural light, although it has been cropped and re-sized..

 

Of course the Canon camera has all kinds of settings in its internals, so Yorkshiremen qnd others can argue over whether it a green or blue engine... or the lighting from the window is unnatural.. 6.30pm cloudy bright NZ summer.  I don't personally think there is any such thing as a correct colour, lighting and real life condition are never constant.

 

The camera is a half-frame Canon EOS-M compact (sensor half the size of a 35mm camera), about 6 years old, with the standard 18-55mm zoom lens set at 30mm, f29 and 25 second exposure IS0 100, standard colour balance. I think it is about an 18MP camera the standard landscape format gives JPEG images usually around 5.5MB   Whatever happened to my beloved 6 x 6 twin lens reflex roll film camera and Agfa Brovira Rapid paper prints...? (sob) 

 

lovely model !.

 

Img_2698a_r1200.jpg

 

A gorgeous model, and an exemplar of how far British outline model railways have come in the last 60 years!

 

As for cameras, I've a Mamiya C3 and a Bronica ETRSi that never see the light of day now.  Its the sheer convenience of digital cameras and photoediting software that trumps the quality you can get from 120 rollfilm, and the benefit of not having to work in a fume-laden darkroom, printing test-strips, judging contrast, washing, drying and glazing prints...  I was looking at some Ektachrome slides from the Bronica the other day.  *sigh*

 

Yep, never had it so good....

[didcot]

I would agree that we have never had it so good.

 

It reminds me of a birthday in the late 70s / early 80s. I wanted an Airfix Prairie, I was taken by the line drawing on the Airix box and 6106 was 1/2 mile down the road. Dad took me to Mr Miles shop in Didcot to get it on his Saturday afternoon off. We got it home and put it one the track.....nothing. 30 minutes of pushing and prodding wouldn't make it move, so back we went.

 

Being a smaller shop Mr Miles didn't have another, so off we went to Centre News where a Hornby Pannier was purchased instead.

 

Anyway 1/2 hour later we are back in Centre News to exchange it for another and then back again for a refund!

 

Off we went to Touchwood Sports (who also did Star Wars figures in the blister packaging) and another Pannier was procured.

 

You can see where this is going.

 

By now I was in tears, Dad was beginning to lose patience with model railways having spent most of his afternoon off charging around town. But back we went to Touchwood Sports and came away with a blue Caledonian 0-4-0. Not my beloved GWR, but the only loco left in Didcot we hadn't tried. It ran straight away and I still have it tucked away with my other model railway items waiting for the day when I finally finish decorating the new house!

 

I also asked for the 3 1/2" Rocket for Christmas. I could only have it if all the grandparents, Aunts and Uncles chipped in to buy it and other than some sweets from the man in red that was it! I couldn't sleep for weeks. I had the whole house up early, with my dad having to move his car out the garage at 6 am so we could lay down the track. He and my grandfather oiled and watered it, filled the butane canister, lost facial hair when lighting it. All to no avail. Seized solid. Queue Christmas melt down! The replacement only moved two feet and blew one of the cylinder caps off! My grandfather, who always seemed to have Araldite or plastic padding to hand, glued it back on. It still holds to this day!

 

Fortunately neither I or my boys have had to go through that exercise and 99% have been perfect out of the box with only a drop of oil needed.

 

I think we forget that the level of details and reliability were somewhat lacking back in the day.

 

Matt

[Legend]

It is true , we forget that quality was dire back in the 70s too (but that’s no excuse) . I remember getting a Hornby HST Christmas 1977 , it was just out . Ran very slowly then just stopped . Took it back to Argyle Models day after Boxing Day and he had been inundated with duff models, to the extent he was going through what stocks he had to identify runners!

[Pete the Elaner]

Also for 3D printing & Laser cutting.

In the past, if you wanted something more unusual or bespoke, you had to build it from scratch.

It is easier to draw it up on a computer & press a button. It is a different skill set but easier to achieve a consistent result for something repetitive with a small but significant difference to that which is commercially available.

[robmcg]

A gorgeous model, and an exemplar of how far British outline model railways have come in the last 60 years!

 

As for cameras, I've a Mamiya C3 and a Bronica ETRSi that never see the light of day now.  Its the sheer convenience of digital cameras and photoediting software that trumps the quality you can get from 120 rollfilm, and the benefit of not having to work in a fume-laden darkroom, printing test-strips, judging contrast, washing, drying and glazing prints...  I was looking at some Ektachrome slides from the Bronica the other day.  *sigh*

 

Yep, never had it so good....

 

Some things are still good after 58 years...

 

I just won this in an auction. A bit more than the 18/9d in 1961 which was retail here in NZ  no idea what it was in £ in the UK.. It has 12/6d on the box.   In $US it was advertised at $1.78  with a google search for Kitmaster.

 

For me in 1962 aged 11 yrs this was the holy grail... I never managed to buy one. Until last night

 

Who needs Heljan?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has full instructions.  I'd love to build it and halve its value!

 

I built a Dapol ex-Kitmaster Bulleid in a moment of madness a few years ago, but the quality of the mouldings around axles and frames was pretty dire.  As I recall Kitmaster and 1960s Airfix were very good and ran smoothly...  when pushed or towed that it is.

 

Here is 34072 with various Hornby bits added.  Photo edited somewhat.

 

 

As to cameras, there must be a lot of lovely items which have fallen into disuse.   

Edited January 22, 2019 by robmcg

[tomparryharry]

'Tis a pity that the moulds/tools to the Beyer Garret kit appear to no longer exist.

 

Should such access to the model still existed, I'd bet some enterprising model maker would be making a rather natty nickel silver chassis for it.

 

Just pipe dreaming, me.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

[Il Grifone]

It was indeed 12/6d. I had one back in the day, but can't remember what happened to her. Probably thrown out

 

I doubt I would have had one at 18/9d though. 12/6d was quite expensive enough!

Edited January 25, 2019 by Il Grifone

[9402 Fredrick]

I have to say that Hornby have stwpped their game up from their design clever days, even going so far as to dive head first into the industrial steam locomotive game with the Peckett & Sons. CO W4 0-4-0ST, I did luckily get one of their initial Pecketts before, and I am looking forward to the Peckett B2 0-6-0ST and the Ruston 48DS.

[robmcg]

'Tis a pity that the moulds/tools to the Beyer Garret kit appear to no longer exist.

 

Should such access to the model still existed, I'd bet some enterprising model maker would be making a rather natty nickel silver chassis for it.

 

Just pipe dreaming, me.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

 

Hi Ian, well , Heljan make a truly superb version,  but I must say the Kitmaster one I bought a few days ago is rather special, it being 58 years old, and brings memories of my kit-build when I was 11 yrs old flooding back...  polystyrene on my school jersey, did not wash out!   Mind you I grew out of that by the time I was 13yrs.  I had so wanted a Garratt back then, or a Canadian 4-8-4 or NYC Hudson, but did save up and buy a Stirling Single and a Prairie tank, both assembled painted and lined by hand, but now the dilemma will be whether I assemble the Garratt or not.  If I do I will leave it in the black plastic entirely, OR indulge my artistic skills with weathering...

[adb968008]

'Tis a pity that the moulds/tools to the Beyer Garret kit appear to no longer exist.Should such access to the model still existed, I'd bet some enterprising model maker would be making a rather natty nickel silver chassis for it.Just pipe dreaming, me.Happy modelling,Ian.

Aiui Dapol acquired it but it was worn out. I think I recall some intention by Dapol to make a Garatt in the early 1990’s.

[robmcg]

A couple of photos of recent Hornby models with minimal editing, well,quite a bit really, but the basic models are not greatly altered. Prototypical front bogie wheels instead of Hornby, although proper ones are in the plans for the new Princess,, and of course the Princess hasn't even reached pre-production beyond the grey mouldings shown so far by Hornby.

 

I really should put a Duchess of Atholl between these two to show the great achievement by Stanier's LMS team from 1933-40. And finish with SWS. And maybe include a semi..    The Crewe team got the Princess so good by 1936 that it is amazing that they got more heating surfaces, better breathing, bigger cylinders, and came up with the Princess Coronation.

 

Great models, great prototypes.

 

 

 

Too much time spent hanging around engine sheds on Sundays in the early 60s! 

Edited January 23, 2019 by robmcg

[Les1952]

AFAIK the WCML 'non stop' services had crew relief and a brief stop at Carlisle Upperby, this continuing into the diesel era.  Some class 40s were built with water pickup gear to replenish the steam heating header tanks on these long runs.  But I'm pretty sure the LMS built at least one corridor tender for a Coronation.

 

The LNER went for corridor tenders and relief crew in a reserved first class compartment next the loco.  The changeover point was between Thirsk and Northallerton in each direction, and the crews worked 'double home', lodging in London or Edinburgh before returning the following day.  The relieved crew were given bottled beer and a meal from the restaurant car, though whether this was just  normal practice or officially endorsed I do not know; there was certainly nothing in the rules in those days to prevent it!

 

A relieving crew which had travelled down to Upperby on a non stop train from Euston, or up from Glasgow for that matter, would be already tired from the motion of the loco by the time they took over, and could not have been expected to perform well.  Balancing yourself against the motion of a steam loco at speed is physically exhausting in itself, especially when there's nowhere to sit!  When 'Top Gear' featured a race between a Jaguar XK120, a Vincent Black Shadow motorbike, and Tornado from KX to Edinburgh, Jeremy Clarkson rode on Tornado all the way though the crew was relieved (I don't mean just to see the back of him!).  You should have seen the state of him when he got off at Waverley!

 

Tornado would have won but for being pathed behind a stopper running in to Waverley, incidentally, but honours went to Captain Slow in the jag.  The Hamster gave up on the Vincent somewhere in the North East of England, shaken to bits.

 

The Jag only really won because of the number of town centres that roads no longer go through- just add on the time it would take to get through Stamford, Newark, Doncaster, Darlington, and Newcastle upon Tyne.....

 

Yet these new roads mean I can take my layout from the East Midlands to shows as far away as Weston Super Mare and Newcastle upon Tyne, and still be home by 9pm after the show closes....

 

Les 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Les1952

[Il Grifone]

Back in the day, road travel was really slow despite the lack of an overall speed limit. (The limit was usually in the car - 80mph maximum flat out was not uncommon, 100mph exceptional.) I remenber it took something like four hours* to go on holiday from Bristol to Plymouih. (I'm surprised I didn't get a clip round the ear for my continual, "Are we there yet?"). 30mph was a good average well into the sixties/seventies. Then, as now, traffic prevented getting full use of  a fast car. The narrow and twisty roads didn't help either.

 

* It could have been even more if there were delays on the notorious Exeter by-pass.

[tomparryharry]

I think 8 hours on the blade would cut Mr Clarkson down to size...

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Back in the day, road travel was really slow despite the lack of an overall speed limit. (The limit was usually in the car - 80mph maximum flat out was not uncommon, 100mph exceptional.) I remenber it took something like four hours* to go on holiday from Bristol to Plymouih. (I'm surprised I didn't get a clip round the ear for my continual, "Are we there yet?"). 30mph was a good average well into the sixties/seventies. Then, as now, traffic prevented getting full use of  a fast car. The narrow and twisty roads didn't help either.

 

* It could have been even more if there were delays on the notorious Exeter by-pass.

 

The problem was not so much the roads themselves, most of which could have sustained 50mph averages between towns, but the lorries, which could barely make 30mph on many of them, much less on the hills, and which were difficult to overtake with the less powerful cars of the period.  A regular run for our family was Cardiff-London, about 6 hours on the A48/A40 route and grindingly slow on the hills if you were behind a loaded lorry, which you usually were.  On hollys to Cornwall, the Severn Tunnel Ferry was used and Father plotted routes to avoid the dreaded A38 and Exeter bypass; you were looking at a 12 hour plus run when you included stops for food!

 

My job, from about the age of 6, was navigator, with mother asleep in the back, which was very effective at preventing me asking whether we were there yet.  I had to look out for signposts to the next town, Mortonhampstead, Launceston, or wherever.

[Hal Nail]

8 hours is easy! As an impoverished student in the late 80s, I used to save a few quid by taking the Sundays only direct train from Southampton to Newcastle, which took 11. A scheduled half hour wait at Darlington used to test my already stretched patience to the limit...

Edited January 25, 2019 by Hal Nail