A query re "modern" modern image and contemporary modellers

[phil gollin]

.

 

The "wishlists" and comments on the recent manufacturers announcements has led this confirmed 1950s/60s Southern region modeller into being confused over how are manufacturers meant to satisfy modern modellers.  There are just so many different companies and liveries that even if all the companies wanted to they could not produce one of every option.

 

Should manufacturers just concentrate on certain "big" companies and particular long lasting liveries, or should they produce some of this and some of that ?

 

( The same also applies to pre-grouping choices. )

 

.

[souwest]

Hi,

 

I think the fact that there have been so many companies post privatisation that manufacturers are on a hiding to nothing in choosing liveries. In some cases the choices of livery is not an issue - for stock that is unique to one company or a small number.  In others particilalry longer lived classes there are a multitude of possible liveries.  A modeller choosing the 1930s has only four companies to choose - someone wanting to start modelling the contemporary scene has a lot more to choose from.

 

Equally modellers now have a better choice of models of contemporary stock than in the past, and the prices are less likely to encourage re-painting; indeed lack of confidence in repainting is likely to be a factor.  There seems to be more of a sneering attitude by the armchair modeller who has not done anything, not even managed a layout, probably sitting in mummies attic in his tighty- sneering at anything which is not to professional model standards.  Equally the comments when a new model is released "not for me, I model something else"  (oh really that enriches my life - not).

[beast66606]

A lot of wishlisters forget that not all companies are willing to allow their liveries to be used, and some who do command high prices - I guess the same wishlisters who want 66900 in polka dot and lime green as run by Wishlisters Railways would moan if the price was twice normal to pay for the WR license fee.

[HonestTom]

The speed of livery changes does mean that one doesn't have to be bang up to date with their models to model a particular scene. For instance, right now, South Western Railway's livery is a grey pattern. But relatively few items of rolling stock are currently in that livery, with the vast majority being in the old South West Trains livery. As some of this stock is very new or recently refurbished, I suspect it'll be 2021 at least because the South West Trains livery becomes an anachronism.

[Wheatley]

Should manufacturers just concentrate on certain "big" companies and particular long lasting liveries

Depending on ow you define "big" and "long lasting" that could either make no difference at all, or restrict them to BR Blue. Even that was only dominant for 20 years.

 

To take the railway's most settled period as an (admmittedly historical) example, LMS loco livery (25 years) was essentially red or black with yellow lettering, yet David Jenkinson's book on the subject runs to over 200 pages and listed so many variations that an alpha-numeric code was required to keep track of them all. In the same 25 years a single LNER class of 35 locos had (at least) 4 different liveries (A4s - grey, garter blue, apple green, black), the Southern went through three different shades of green and even the ultra-standardised GWR managed several variations of crest/shirtbutton and lettering.

 

They'll make what they think sells, just like they always have. And what sells isn't necessarily what is/was typically seen, especially if it's pretty.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Wheatley

[HonestTom]

Depending on ow you define "big" and "long lasting" that could either make no difference at all, or restrict them to BR Blue. Even that was only dominant for 20 years.

 

To take the railway's most settled period as an (admmittedly historical) example, LMS loco livery (25 years) was essentially red or black with yellow lettering, yet David Jenkinson's book on the subject runs to over 200 pages and listed so many variations that an alpha-numeric code was required to keep track of them all. In the same 25 years a single LNER class of 35 locos had (at least) 4 different liveries (A4s - grey, garter blue, apple green, black), the Southern went through three different shades of green and even the ultra-standardised GWR managed several variations of crest/shirtbutton and lettering.

 

They'll make what they think sells, just like they always have. And what sells isn't necessarily what is/was typically seen, especially if it's pretty.

 

This too. I wonder how many people actually model the South Eastern and Chatham Railway? Yet the SECR C class in full SECR livery sold out almost immediately.

 

Then there's the fact that a lot of people will buy something for the novelty value. Look at the popularity of DP1. How many modellers really need this specific one-off prototype? Probably not many. But it's a nice-looking engine and it adds a splash of colour and glamour to the BR era, and evidently that's what a lot of people thought.

[RLBH]

Hi,

 

I think the fact that there have been so many companies post privatisation that manufacturers are on a hiding to nothing in choosing liveries. In some cases the choices of livery is not an issue - for stock that is unique to one company or a small number.  In others particilalry longer lived classes there are a multitude of possible liveries.  A modeller choosing the 1930s has only four companies to choose - someone wanting to start modelling the contemporary scene has a lot more to choose from.

 

Equally modellers now have a better choice of models of contemporary stock than in the past, and the prices are less likely to encourage re-painting; indeed lack of confidence in repainting is likely to be a factor.  There seems to be more of a sneering attitude by the armchair modeller who has not done anything, not even managed a layout, probably sitting in mummies attic in his tighty-###### sneering at anything which is not to professional model standards.  Equally the comments when a new model is released "not for me, I model something else"  (oh really that enriches my life - not).

 

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

Edited January 16, 2019 by RLBH

[HonestTom]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

 

In the case of a lot of modern companies, the complex patterns of modern liveries without raised details to guide you make them difficult to reproduce by hand.

[Talltim]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

Many American manufacturers do offer undecorated versions, but I get the impression that they don't sell that well, yet ironically are really hard to come by for those that want them.

[Pacific231G]

A lot of wishlisters forget that not all companies are willing to allow their liveries to be used, and some who do command high prices - I guess the same wishlisters who want 66900 in polka dot and lime green as run by Wishlisters Railways would moan if the price was twice normal to pay for the WR license fee.

 

Do we know if such restriction come from the TOCs themselves- who one would expect to regard their appearance on layouts and in magazines as good PR- or from the design studios who may only be licencing the liveries to the operators?

(ISTR that SNCF had to drop one of their liveries because their rights from the design studio ran out of time.)

 

Hi,

 

Equally modellers now have a better choice of models of contemporary stock than in the past, and the prices are less likely to encourage re-painting; indeed lack of confidence in repainting is likely to be a factor. There seems to be more of a sneering attitude by the armchair modeller who has not done anything, not even managed a layout, probably sitting in mummies attic in his tighty-###### sneering at anything which is not to professional model standards. Equally the comments when a new model is released "not for me, I model something else" (oh really that enriches my life - not).

Hi Souwest

I think you're probably right about lack of confidence in painting. While I'm perfectly happy to paint my scratch and kit built buildings I'm far less confident when it comes to rolling stock- particularly locos- and must admit to having several in Ep IV liveries when they're supposed to be Ep III. I must also admit that though they're supposed to be geting repaints "some day". That day will probably never come.

 

Is it heresy to suggest that we should be able to take more pride in models that are own work, even if less than perfect, than those we've simply bought however  "perfect" they may be?

Edited January 16, 2019 by Pacific231G

[phil gollin]

The speed of livery changes does mean that one doesn't have to be bang up to date with their models to model a particular scene. For instance, right now, South Western Railway's livery is a grey pattern. But relatively few items of rolling stock are currently in that livery, with the vast majority being in the old South West Trains livery. As some of this stock is very new or recently refurbished, I suspect it'll be 2021 at least because the South West Trains livery becomes an anachronism.

.

 

In a way this change just makes things more difficult.   Being a long-suffering passenger (NOT "customer") of SWT the changes are ridiculously slow, but that slow speed will mark any railway based on present day SWT tied to specific dates.  On the first day of the new franchise only 6 (!) units were in the new livery (IIRC).   Even now where I live the local units only have the name change, not the new livery, whereas on the mainline more of the full livery changes are to be seen.

 

So, how many of the "old" livery" with the new name should a manufacturer produce ?

 

. 

[BoD]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

I know some companies use vinyl 'transfers' to re-livery. Could this be an option for modellers if they could be made thin enough.

['CHARD]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

 

See Honest Tom's response below.  I would add that Heljan released anonymous Class 47s for the buyer ('modeller') to christen with his/ her chosen/ preferred number, yet this was an unpopular release because people are reluctant to attempt even that piece of nano-modelling.  Against this background, I doubt unpainted locos would sell, and moreover, in what form would you retail them, because to even get a bodyshell into primer you have the issue of masking-off, or spraying before assembly.  It's a non-starter when you begin to think about it.

 

Dapol sell unpainted but assembled wagons, including relatively tidy releases such as the Grampus, in its case in unpainted black, so practically ideal for the 1950s/ 60s Engineers Black livery.  Dapol would know how many of these they shift, but I doubt the company is buying a Caribbean island on the proceeds.

 

I remember the Dinky and Triang CKD models of the late sixties/ early seventies.  The Dinky vehicles were paint-it yourself.  I loved them, but then I became a modeller in adulthood.  I wonder how these things would sell now - Airfix via Hornby might be a barometer, but I don't think it can ever be extrapolated into potential locomotive or certainly MU sales.

 

In the case of a lot of modern companies, the complex patterns of modern liveries without raised details to guide you make them difficult to reproduce by hand.

 

See above.  It's a commercial non-starter anyway.

 

I know some companies use vinyl 'transfers' to re-livery. Could this be an option for modellers if they could be made thin enough.

 

They already do - Electra Graphics, erstwhile of this website, manufacture a range.  I produced an N-gauge DBSO for a friend via this technique.

 

EDIT: Now called Electra Rail, here: https://www.electrarail.co.uk/

Edited January 17, 2019 by 'CHARD

[RLBH]

See Honest Tom's response below.  I would add that Heljan released anonymous Class 47s for the buyer ('modeller') to christen with his/ her chosen/ preferred number, yet this was an unpopular release because people are reluctant to attempt even that piece of nano-modelling.  Against this background, I doubt unpainted locos would sell, and moreover, in what form would you retail them, because to even get a bodyshell into primer you have the issue of masking-off, or spraying before assembly.  It's a non-starter when you begin to think about it.

Idle musings more than a serious suggestion anyway; if there was a market I'm sure it would have taken off. Quite apart from anything else, such a release would have no appeal to the collectors!

[njee20]

Unpainted/numbered models come up time and time again, but they just don't sell, that seems unanimous from the manufacturers. 

[dvdlcs]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

 

Not unpainted, rather undecorated. Dapol released their N gauge Class 73 in a large logo livery, but unnumbered. A sheet of transfers was included with the loco so that the user could choose one of several numbers. Apparently it wasn't a popular seller so the 'experiment' wasn't repeated.

[Catkins]

Hornby released the short Mk3s with just '00' on the bodyside, and a rub down transfer sheet was included that had a range of numbers '1Y00X' where the Y was either a 1 or 2  depending on the class, and the X was anything between 1 - 9.

IIRC they also tried it with a 47 or 37, and I know that the 37 in green came with stick on headcodes.

[Fat Controller]

CKD only sold because they were exempt from Purchase Tax, and so were noticeably cheaper than the R-T-R version of the same model. As to liveries, I suspect that there have always been examples of older liveries still running long after (usually highly-publicised) new ones have been introduced; BR Blue and Grey was nominally introduced fleet-wide in 1965 or 6, yet green liveried locos were still to be seen seven or more years later, and maroon coaches almost as late.

[HonestTom]

Hornby released the short Mk3s with just '00' on the bodyside, and a rub down transfer sheet was included that had a range of numbers '1Y00X' where the Y was either a 1 or 2  depending on the class, and the X was anything between 1 - 9.

IIRC they also tried it with a 47 or 37, and I know that the 37 in green came with stick on headcodes.

And the class 25. These days, I keep finding second-hand examples with only the number 25.

 

 

 

Dapol sell unpainted but assembled wagons, including relatively tidy releases such as the Grampus, in its case in unpainted black, so practically ideal for the 1950s/ 60s Engineers Black livery.  Dapol would know how many of these they shift, but I doubt the company is buying a Caribbean island on the proceeds.

 

 

I actually buy quite a few of these, because wagon painting in the BR era is pretty easy - one body colour, usually brown or grey, some white markings to represent numbers and some heavy weathering to disguise any flaws. It's not difficult even for a relative beginner to get decent results. But I'd be more hesitant for a complex livery, as with say a modern multiple unit.

['CHARD]

I actually buy quite a few of these, because wagon painting in the BR era is pretty easy - one body colour, usually brown or grey, some white markings to represent numbers and some heavy weathering to disguise any flaws. It's not difficult even for a relative beginner to get decent results. But I'd be more hesitant for a complex livery, as with say a modern multiple unit.

 

I'm not over-struck on the older tooling, but needs must for certain vans, and I have taken the RTP (Ready To Paint) route for both gunpowder and banana variants, plus the Grampus mentioned earlier - although that seems to command a high price even in its natural state. 

[Fat Controller]

I'm not over-struck on the older tooling, but needs must for certain vans, and I have taken the RTP (Ready To Paint) route for both gunpowder and banana variants, plus the Grampus mentioned earlier - although that seems to command a high price even in its natural state. 

Whilst the unpainted-but-complete Grampus is not much cheaper than the R-T-R one, the unpainted body retails at £2.00 at Hattons. You could mount it on Dapol's own 12' chassis (£6.00 from Dapol) or on a Parkside underfame (£3.50)

[HonestTom]

I'm not over-struck on the older tooling, but needs must for certain vans, and I have taken the RTP (Ready To Paint) route for both gunpowder and banana variants, plus the Grampus mentioned earlier - although that seems to command a high price even in its natural state. 

 

I'm much the same. I needed a rake of banana vans, so the saving was quite substantial as compared to buying it ready-painted. Plus I could use different shades of brown to represent wagons in different states of maintenance, which is something manufacturers never do.

[kevinlms]

I can't help but wonder why unpainted models, for the purchaser to paint in the livery of their preference, haven't become a thing. It would certainly avoid the need to tool up for a wide range of liveries; the likes of Games Workshop figures suggest that many people would be quite happy to paint their own! This approach would probably be best suited to the American market, where all the railroads operate locomotives of a manufacturer's standard design and where 'freelance' model railroading is well accepted. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for, say, a British outline Class 66 or other widespread locomotive/unit/coach/wagon.

But if you intend to paint something yourself, does it really matter whether it comes undecorated or not? Fact is, its probably cheaper to buy a model in an unpopular livery from the box shifters, at a clearance price.

[The Black Hat]

.

 

The "wishlists" and comments on the recent manufacturers announcements has led this confirmed 1950s/60s Southern region modeller into being confused over how are manufacturers meant to satisfy modern modellers.  There are just so many different companies and liveries that even if all the companies wanted to they could not produce one of every option.

 

Should manufacturers just concentrate on certain "big" companies and particular long lasting liveries, or should they produce some of this and some of that ?

 

( The same also applies to pre-grouping choices. )

 

.

 

Let me see if I can help. 

 

Many of the different companies as you see it, can often relate to the way that passenger operations run on the network today. Although there has been some boundary changes from the first companies set up with privatization, most of them recently have largely remained in the same place, meaning what changes are the liveries of the operators that you have mentioned. 

 

Model companies like to try and find companies that will bisect or cross from one region to the other, just as they like layouts where two borders of a BR region would meet, ie BR Southern and BR Western region would be similar to modelling Northern Rail and East Midland Trains in the Nottingham area. The main companies that traverse a route will be the most popular, such as Virgin West Coast, The ECML operator (GNER, East Coast, VTEC, LNER etc) or Cross Country, as these will be seen passing through the main geographical area that the main local operator would run into. 

 

To this you then add the Freight companies as these are go anywhere engines that can show up on duties and workings across the country. That means that the whole country modelling that time could accommodate one of these engines, such as class 66 but a lot of engines relate from BR periods - such as class 37, 47, 56 etc. If thats the case a model company choosing to make these can produce a model for the privitisation scene but also capture releases for the BR period too - maximizing the potential for production runs and sales. The same goes for the various units that are running today - class 142s are coming to the end of their lives on the network but have been used across the north and in the south. 156 and 158 have equally been used across the country, meaning both BR liveries but also the operators in recent years. Turbostars, class 170 were ordered just after privisiation but again have been seen across the network used by various operators and as new stock is brought in the class 170s are an excellent example of moving to where operators need stock (or rather where the Department of Transport tells operators where its needed). So, just as they have been used often in the Midlands and Scotland, some are now moving to Northern, allowing another market and livery. Other classes like the 171 derived from the 170 sees the options for these increase. 

 

Most of the traction that is done is diesel. The Electric element can seem to be a hinderance although some classes like the 350 have been done as they hit the Southern and WCML market. I expect class 319 to follow. Some overhead electric engines have been done, but again these are largely for passenger on WCML lines that have also transfered or seen elsewhere (such as class 86 and 90). This does however limit the Southern 3rd rail stock in modern (ie post 1980s second generation units onwards) as the 3rd rail element restricts the market for potential use elsewhere - as classes were often route specific and cant transfer out to other areas easily. The reason why theres the massive drop off between slam door and second generation is the volume of people modelling transition period for the south of england, particularly southern region. That difference alone makes a 3rd rail slam door unit that was less route specific a viable model to run alongside all the various steam engines being made, the stock and the electric engines that are specfic to the area. Not doing the 3rd rail units would have left a gap and companies have filled it. 

 

So, thats why companies look to see what can be done. They find units that operate in various areas of the country or pass through it on longer routes. Do they have many liveries that can be done? Do they also compliment other models that have been made so far and do these run alongside each other. This last point is more of a reason why 170 has been more viable than class 175, with the latter having travelled less and operated in roughly the same areas. Once you identify these protoypes, is there the bonus of a BR guise and then its a case of going for the model. It explains new entrants like Realtrack have picked class 156 and 144 and 142. It also explains why Northern rail is a good company to model for as 142, 144, 150 153, 156, 158, 170 are all done and run alongside each other. Arriva trains Wales and Scotrail and First Great Western can also say the same with many of those models done. Add in freight, like EWS/DBC, Freightliner, and Colas and your well on your way. Some long distance like Cross Country or VTWC, East Coast etc and your all but done. To answer your question is why some big companies are modelled more than others already as the catchment is there for potential sales bigger than some franchises that are smaller or have a less diverse and smaller total fleet - like Anglia. 

 

The final thing to consider are the little oddities and small companies that also run through areas. For this look at Steam Charters, West Coast Railway Company tours, Fragonset, DCR or the likes now of Rail operation group on stock moves that can be the special train to add variety and novelties. The ultimate one of all these is the Network Rail test train. Again a novelty and something different, which means massively popular with modellers but also has national potential for interest and thus highly popular. 

 

Hope that explains the privisation model scene - but also links it with areas your interested in to provide a contrast and difference to understand the themes around it. 

['CHARD]

 class 170s are an excellent example of moving to where operators need stock (or rather where the Department of Transport tells operators where its needed). 

 

Minor correction, in conventional franchise competitions, the operator nominates which stock it intends to use throughout the franchise, by discussion/ negotiation with the train owners. 

 

The DfT doesn't usually tell operators what is needed where, it leaves that to the market - unless of course it's IET or the Thameslink fleet, which DfT bought itself (and didn't it do well...).