Theatre Indicators

[Richie Kynaston]

Afternoon all,

Does anyone know the size (ie actual real-life size) of the single character theatre indicators - the entire unit I mean? Also the depth of the hood if anyone knows? I am not talking about the modern LED ones that are now in use, but the traditional ones with bulbs in that were around from the late 1970s-early/mid-1990s (probably later). I think it was a 5x7 grid of bulbs if I remember rightly to allow all characters/letters/numbers to be displayed.

 

I have searched round and can find the dimensions from Unipart for the modern LED ones, but I don't know if they are the same size - I presume that bulbs and the associated wiring would have taken up more space than modern day electronics.

 

Any help would be appreciated.  I have a few photos of them, but again, if anyone has a side or rear view that would be appreciated too!

 

Richie

[iands]

Hi Ritchie,

 

Unfortunately I only have the details for an LED type indicator, so can't give you the physical dimension detail you are enquiring about other than the lamp matrix was actually 7 x 7, not 5 x 7. This allowed for, as an example, the letter M to use the full matrix without causing any unintended distortion. It also allowed for the figure "10" (again as an example) to be displayed correctly with the "1" utilising the first column of lamps, the 2nd column being blank, and the "0" occupying the remaining columns.

 

PS - these indicators were also referred to as Multi-Lamp Route Indicators. Haven't done it myself yet, but might be worth using this alternative when searching on the internet - it might throw up something different.

[Grovenor]

other than the lamp matrix was actually 7 x 7, not 5 x 7.

Actually both 5x7 and 7x7 versions were available, the 7x7 usually only used if numerical indications higher than 9 were needed.

I'll see if I can find any drawings.

Regards

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Ritchie,

 

Unfortunately I only have the details for an LED type indicator, so can't give you the physical dimension detail you are enquiring about other than the lamp matrix was actually 7 x 7, not 5 x 7. This allowed for, as an example, the letter M to use the full matrix without causing any unintended distortion. It also allowed for the figure "10" (again as an example) to be displayed correctly with the "1" utilising the first column of lamps, the 2nd column being blank, and the "0" occupying the remaining columns.

 

PS - these indicators were also referred to as Multi-Lamp Route Indicators. Haven't done it myself yet, but might be worth using this alternative when searching on the internet - it might throw up something different.

 

Thanks for that.  That sounds totally logical, I always thought they were taller than wide, but an optical illusion with the darkness inside the hood made them look square.  Being 7x7 sounds a far better bet!  Especially thinking of the one on the north end of Platform 4 at Doncaster!  I have had a quick look on the web and while it produced some drawings, looking for 'Multi-Lamp Route Indicators' it did not give any measurements unfortunately.  But thanks for the thought.

 

 

Actually both 5x7 and 7x7 versions were available, the 7x7 usually only used if numerical indications higher than 9 were needed.

I'll see if I can find any drawings.

Regards

 

 

Grovenor, thanks for that - anything you can find, either drawings or measurements would be most welcome.

[Martin Shaw]

Richie

 

I've found a drawing of the AEI/GEC version. This came in a number of variants but the most common single unit is 16.75" wide by 20.25"high and 6.25" deep. The hood protrudes 10.5" at the top and tapers to nothing 19" from the top. This for a single unit, the double unit is obviously enough twice as wide, there were also double sided versions and they could all be pole and gantry mounted. Hope this helps. I would imagine that Westinghouse and SGE units would be similarly dimensioned.

Regards

Martin

Edited January 17, 2019 by Martin Shaw

[Clive Mortimore]

Any help?

[Richie Kynaston]

Richie

 

I've found a drawing of the AEI/GEC version. This came in a number of variants but the most common single unit is 16.75" wide by 20.25"high and 6.25" deep. The hood protrudes 10.5" at the top and tapers to nothing 19" from the top. This for a single unit, the double unit is obviously enough twice as wide, there were also double sided versions and they could all be pole and gantry mounted. Hope this helps. I would imagine that Westinghouse and SGE units would be similarly dimensioned.

Regards

Martin

 

Martin, 

Many thanks, that should give me what I need.  I'll report back on the outcome!

 

sig13 001 (3).jpg

sig13 001 (2).jpg

sig13 001 (22).jpg

sig13 001 (23).jpg

Any help?

 

 

Clive,

Very helpful yes - thank you ever so much!

 

Richie

[Richie Kynaston]

Just to say thanks to everyone. I have a CAD design for a 4mm theater indicator as a result ... once the printed parts arrive, I just need to see how viable it is to get it working!

 

Richie

[njee20]

Absolute Aspects make a working theatre indicator, so it's definitely possible. I keep flirting with having a go in 2mm. I've never got beyond flirting, mind...!

[luckymucklebackit]

Hi Richie - it is possible, here is how I did it, but it would only be viable for the position my signals were in (next to a tunnel/bridge)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26270-gateside-northbridge-and-the-allenshaw-inglenook/page-2

 

Jim

[Richie Kynaston]

Absolute Aspects make a working theatre indicator, so it's definitely possible. I keep flirting with having a go in 2mm. I've never got beyond flirting, mind...!

Thanks. Yes i’ve looked at the Absolute Aspects work and love what they do, but those theatre indicators are just way over scale and, in my opinion, knock off the superb effect of the rest of the signal. So I ruled those out early on!

 

But thanks for flagging them up!

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Richie - it is possible, here is how I did it, but it would only be viable for the position my signals were in (next to a tunnel/bridge)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26270-gateside-northbridge-and-the-allenshaw-inglenook/page-2

 

Jim

Thanks Jim,

We’ve both had the same thoughts! That was my line of thinking run fibre optic cables from the theatre head to LEDs beneath the baseboard. Trying to work on a system that would allow them to produce all 26 characters and 0-9 ... actually 24 characters, as 0 and O obviously look the same and I don’t think Q is used on theatre indicators.

 

Richie

[TheSignalEngineer]

Most I ever used in one head in the real world was 1 - 18 at Euston. Even on complicated layouts unless it is for multiple platforms most won't have more than about six letters. I'm not sure what you could do with a modern LED one but for the Fibre Optic type you couldn't get more than four lamp units in a standard size case. I did have some special over-size cases made on one job which took six lamps as I didn't have enough space to get two 4-way units in side by side or one above the other to the side of the signal head.

[njee20]

Thanks Jim,

We’ve both had the same thoughts! That was my line of thinking run fibre optic cables from the theatre head to LEDs beneath the baseboard. Trying to work on a system that would allow them to produce all 26 characters and 0-9 ... actually 24 characters, as 0 and O obviously look the same and I don’t think Q is used on theatre indicators.

 

Richie

When I designed one I did it the other way around, think of which characters I'd actually want, then consider which of the 49 LEDs would actually be needed, and which ones could actually be linked, because they'd always be needed together or not at all. I forget the exact numbers, but to display about 6 different characters on a 7x7 grid I think 'only' needed 26 unique LEDs. My plan was also to run fibre optics to the head. If you mount the signal on a gantry you can use a drinking straw quite inconspicuously to run all the fibre optics/wires down the leg and to the matrix under the baseboard. IIRC Doughnut formerly of this parish used a similar technique on his Minsterley layout on here.

 

There are some very neat little OLED screens out there now, but they all just have too much 'stuff' around the actual screen, and are geared towards lots of small text, ironically, rather than single big characters.

[Richie Kynaston]

Agreed, I sat downlown last night and put a matrix together.  If you avoid M, N, W, X and Z then you can fit in a 5x7 grid which brings you down to 35 LEDs.  I have a cunning plan, but we'll wait and see what happens, it will either be a gallant failure or a total c**k up

 

Richie

[iands]

Agreed, I sat downlown last night and put a matrix together.  If you avoid M, N, W, X and Z then you can fit in a 5x7 grid which brings you down to 35 LEDs.  I have a cunning plan, but we'll wait and see what happens, it will either be a gallant failure or a total c**k up

 

Richie

Bit of a shame to avoid an "M", it might be one of the most used prototypically for "Main" line.

[TheSignalEngineer]

When I designed one I did it the other way around, think of which characters I'd actually want, then consider which of the 49 LEDs would actually be needed, and which ones could actually be linked, because they'd always be needed together or not at all. I forget the exact numbers, but to display about 6 different characters on a 7x7 grid I think 'only' needed 26 unique LEDs. My plan was also to run fibre optics to the head. If you mount the signal on a gantry you can use a drinking straw quite inconspicuously to run all the fibre optics/wires down the leg and to the matrix under the baseboard. IIRC Doughnut formerly of this parish used a similar technique on his Minsterley layout on here.

 

There are some very neat little OLED screens out there now, but they all just have too much 'stuff' around the actual screen, and are geared towards lots of small text, ironically, rather than single big characters.

There is a BR standard drawing showing which bulbs are lit for each character. Sorry I haven't got one but someone on here may be able to help.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It starts to get interesting when you get above '9'. Up to then numerals are centered use the middle five lamps. When you get to '10' the '1' goes in the left column and the other numeral in columns 3-7 except for '11' which uses columns 2 and 6 IIRC. 

[Richie Kynaston]

Bit of a shame to avoid an "M", it might be one of the most used prototypically for "Main" line.

 

Yes, agree totally, that's why I went for a 7x7 grid that (hopefully!) can display A-Z and 0-9.

 

It starts to get interesting when you get above '9'. Up to then numerals are centered use the middle five lamps. When you get to '10' the '1' goes in the left column and the other numeral in columns 3-7 except for '11' which uses columns 2 and 6 IIRC. 

 

 

Yes I bet!  My method was to print out a 7x7 grid the, colour in all the bulb positions for each letter, based on A-G columns and 1-7 rows:

 

 

That then allowed me to work out the LED sequence for each letter - can anyone see anything I have missed?

 

 

Edit - I mis-coloured two bulbs on 5.  I think F2 should NOT be coloured, but F4 should be!

Edited January 18, 2019 by Richie Kynaston

[Dungrange]

The letter Z? The number 5 doesn't look quite right to me.

[Richie Kynaston]

The letter Z? The number 5 doesn't look quite right to me.

 

 

Somebody may well prove me wrong, but I have not seen a 'Z' used, either in real life or in photos, so I have to admit I left it out, but adding it in is simple enough as its A1-G1 and A7-G7 plus half of the X!  Yes, the 5 I miscoloured 2 bulbs.

[luckymucklebackit]

Somebody may well prove me wrong, but I have not seen a 'Z' used, either in real life or in photos, so I have to admit I left it out, but adding it in is simple enough as its A1-G1 and A7-G7 plus half of the X!  Yes, the 5 I miscoloured 2 bulbs.

 

"z"   is definitely used, at Glasgow Central the tracks on the bridge over the Clyde are W, X, Y  and Z

 

Jim

[Alister_G]

For the number 5 I think B2 should be coloured, F2 shouldn't be coloured, F4 shouldn't be coloured, and B7 shouldn't be coloured. Also for the number 4, I think G5 should be coloured to give the crosspiece of the number.

 

 

Al

Edited January 18, 2019 by Alister_G

[newbryford]

We had a 7x5 theatre on Blackmill. 

 

Slightly oversize and yellow. Although the guy behind the electronics since found a supply of white dot matrix LEDs

 

 

The dot matrix was trimmed down as far as possible and then had enamelled wires re-attached to it by John Holden (of Liverpool Lime St).

The electronics were by Geoff, also of LLS - it simply had 6 switched inputs to a PIC and we had it displaying 1-4, L and S.

 

I built the signal.

There are 18 wires inside the square post!

7 plus 5 plus 1 for the matrix, 4 plus 1 common for the red/yellow/green/shunt.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

[Suzie]

There are suitable dot matrix displays available to make 7mm sized ones, but you have to be imaginative for 4mm and use the displays on their side to give a 2-digit display with 5 x 3 fonts or 1.5 digit display with 5 x 5 fonts. A bit limiting but modelling is compromise. The hardest thing is getting hold of yellow displays, I don't think they were lunar white!

 

Another possibility is to use 7-segment displays which are available in 4mm size, or at least the digit is, but you have to hide the surround. A mask with holes in can be placed over the 7-segment display to give the impression of individual lamps, but you will be a bit limited as to which letters are available.