Regional Eurostars using Polmadie.

[18B]

Evening

 

would anyone happen to have any further info regarding Polmadie shed and it being used for regional Eurostars?

 

What was the abbreviation EPNS? I understand that the former APT shed was extended in 1994 for possible use by Eurostars???

 

[black and decker boy]

I don’t think the regional Eurostar’s or night stock ever ran on the west coast or made it to scotland. The regional services were scrapped before they started even though depot & stabling facilities had been built at both Polmadie & Longsight.

 

The regional sets were used on ECML services under GNER but no further north than York as far as I remember.

[phil-b259]

Evening

 

would anyone happen to have any further info regarding Polmadie shed and it being used for regional Eurostars?

 

What was the abbreviation EPNS? I understand that the former APT shed was extended in 1994 for possible use by Eurostars???

 

The facilities at Polmadie an Longsight, in the absence of any Eurostar services, were / are simply used by VTWC as part of the larger depot site to look after their Pendalinos. As such they faired rather better than the trains themselves....

[caradoc]

IIRC A Eurostar set was diesel-hauled to Glasgow Central one evening to check clearances; Although the move was planned and timetabled, the length of the train (Eurostar plus barrier wagon and Class 37 at each end) blocked the routes to several platforms and caused chaos ! AFAIK that was the only occasion a Eurostar made it to Glasgow, or indeed Scotland. 

[sulzer27jd]

Evening

 

would anyone happen to have any further info regarding Polmadie shed and it being used for regional Eurostars?

 

What was the abbreviation EPNS? I understand that the former APT shed was extended in 1994 for possible use by Eurostars???

 Was the APT shed not at Shields Road? Thats where I remember seeing them, rather than Polmadie.

[keefer]

Courtesy of Bob Reid, from this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48305-bbc-horizon-documentary-on-the-apt-1981/

 

"Shields was the base for the commissioning team for the fleet however the sets were serviced overnight and prepared for service at Polmadie CSMD and where additional staff were based once the full fleet was in service. The heavy repairs however were still done at Shields Rd, as was the staff training. Shields Road wasn't equipped or staffed for servicing full sets in addition to their regular EMU fleet. (whereas Polmadie had been altered to suit specifically for the APT fleet - though both were under the the same AME (South)."

[nightstar.train]

Related. At Polmadie they built a secure compound, basically a heavy fence with locking gates built around a few sidings, to store the international sleeper stock during the day. Something to do with customs regulations required it to be kept securely. Just used as normal sidings now with the gates kept open. Also at Long Rock at Penzance they built a new building for the sleeper stock. Attached to the existing building, but again secure and separate. Used for HST maintenance now.

 

(As a Glaswegian I’m still annoyed they cancelled the sleepers. I’d love to get a sleeper train to Paris. Much nicer than a low cost airline, especially with what airport security is now).

[Danim]

IIRC A Eurostar set was diesel-hauled to Glasgow Central one evening to check clearances; Although the move was planned and timetabled, the length of the train (Eurostar plus barrier wagon and Class 37 at each end) blocked the routes to several platforms and caused chaos ! AFAIK that was the only occasion a Eurostar made it to Glasgow, or indeed Scotland.

It also went to Edinburgh as well again to check clearances

[nightstar.train]

Evening

 

would anyone happen to have any further info regarding Polmadie shed and it being used for regional Eurostars?

 

What was the abbreviation EPNS? I understand that the former APT shed was extended in 1994 for possible use by Eurostars???

Jus thought. EPNS is probably European Night Stock, the proposed and built, but then cancelled, sleeper trains from Glasgow, Cardiff and Penzance to Paris and Brussels. Also nicknamed Nightstar.

[adb968008]

The facilities at Polmadie an Longsight, in the absence of any Eurostar services, were / are simply used by VTWC as part of the larger depot site to look after their Pendalinos. As such they faired rather better than the trains themselves....

2x Eurostars were stored up at Longsight. Theyve even made it as far as into Manchester Piccadilly.

 

I recallthe Eurostar services appearing as ghost trains on the timetable at Piccadilly.

Edited January 18, 2019 by adb968008

[nightstar.train]

2x Eurostars were stored up at Longsight. Theyve even made it as far as into Manchester Piccadilly.

I recallthe Eurostar services appearing as ghost trains on the timetable at Piccadilly.

They were ghost trains for a long long time. I recall reading that even in the late 00s a train (cross country voyager I think) had a six minute scheduled stop somewhere to allow the Eurostar from Manchester to overtake.

[The Stationmaster]

They were ghost trains for a long long time. I recall reading that even in the late 00s a train (cross country voyager I think) had a six minute scheduled stop somewhere to allow the Eurostar from Manchester to overtake.

 

Regional Eurostar paths had been taken off the graph by then so that tale is simply - a tale, no fact in it whatsoever.  And one WCML train was timed through a Eurostar path in the mid 1990s on a timetable period by timetable period basis - that is a fact.

 

EPNS was European Passenger Night Services although that disappeared relatively early to be replaced by ENS following the merger of the two project teams c.1993 although the European Passenger Services (EPS) title was still being used in 1994 only changing a while after the organisation was removed from BR that year.

 

Incidentally Brussels had been removed as a night service train working destination by early 1994 due to SNCB withdrawing from the project.

Related. At Polmadie they built a secure compound, basically a heavy fence with locking gates built around a few sidings, to store the international sleeper stock during the day. Something to do with customs regulations required it to be kept securely. Just used as normal sidings now with the gates kept open. Also at Long Rock at Penzance they built a new building for the sleeper stock. Attached to the existing building, but again secure and separate. Used for HST maintenance now.

 

(As a Glaswegian I’m still annoyed they cancelled the sleepers. I’d love to get a sleeper train to Paris. Much nicer than a low cost airline, especially with what airport security is now).

 

There were some security arrangements at Polmadie to comply with the requirements of the Channel Tunnel Act - nothing to do (directly) with Customs & Excise (as they then were) and in any event Class 373 stabling was to be a dedicated road in the main building.  As no ENS trains would be operating west of Plymouth, and were to be serviced at Laira (where some provision was made) I'm not at all sure what the building at Penzance was for - it definitely didn't figure in any Eurostar budget and progress plans.

The facilities at Polmadie an Longsight, in the absence of any Eurostar services, were / are simply used by VTWC as part of the larger depot site to look after their Pendalinos. As such they faired rather better than the trains themselves....

 

The Eurostar building at Longsight was rented out (by Eurostar) for some sort of train commissioning work but I can't remember whose train were involved.  As the builfding and associated trackwork were Eurostar property I presume it was subsequently sold to Railtrack/NR or possibly to somebody else for use as part of Lonsight depot facilities.  The inside road at Polmadie had various work carried out at Eurostar expense but remained the property of the depot owner and would have involved some sort of rental contract but I'm not sure if that contract was ever finalised, the same situation applied in respect of the outside stabling siding at Laira which was paid for by Eurostar although it would have remained Eurostar property.

[caradoc]

I too would love to be able to travel overnight on a through train from Glasgow to Paris, but I am not sure that the service could ever have paid its way, given the likely journey time (12 hours or thereabouts ?) and probable cost, and the success of low-cost airlines would make it impossible today.

[Mike Storey]

I too would love to be able to travel overnight on a through train from Glasgow to Paris, but I am not sure that the service could ever have paid its way, given the likely journey time (12 hours or thereabouts ?) and probable cost, and the success of low-cost airlines would make it impossible today.

 

Quite. The competitive economics have defeated many of the longstanding, pan-European sleeper (and even lower cost couchette) services, of which there was a huge choice when I went InterRailing several times in the mid-1970's. It is not just low cost flights, but also higher speed trains, or reduced journey times through simplified border procedures and inter-working of train crews, that reduced demand to levels which defied commercial operation. An Austrian outfit, along with Austrian railways themselves, have attempted to re-instate several of the old international sleeper routes, using much enhanced sleeper cars, and some improved couchette vehicles. Loadings are reported to be decent, but their long term viability is still open to question.

 

Of course Brexit, whatever that turns out to mean, may change the relative modal merits between the UK and the EU, but I would not bet the farm on it.

['CHARD]

 

The Eurostar building at Longsight was rented out (by Eurostar) for some sort of train commissioning work but I can't remember whose train were involved.  As the builfding and associated trackwork were Eurostar property I presume it was subsequently sold to Railtrack/NR or possibly to somebody else for use as part of Lonsight depot facilities.  The inside road at Polmadie had various work carried out at Eurostar expense but remained the property of the depot owner and would have involved some sort of rental contract but I'm not sure if that contract was ever finalised, the same situation applied in respect of the outside stabling siding at Laira which was paid for by Eurostar although it would have remained Eurostar property.

 

I think I may be able to help here a wee bit.

 

Alstom-Fiat took over Polmadie (PC and PO) and Longsight (LG, LO and MA) from Virgin Trains in February 1999.  Polmadie scope didn't include the downside (secure sidings) and Longsight likewise excluded the IMD (as I think the Eurostar facility was called locally).  

 

At Polmadie the enhancements (in particular the lengthening and possibly signalling tweaks, I can't recall) were all wrapped up into the depot lease* with Network Rail, bearing in mind that not all the hardware installed for Eurostar could be used for Pendolinos, so the debate was a bit moot.

 

At Longsight, the Eurostar shed was, I think, used to commission Class 175s for First North Western, to whom they were leased from new.  One of the several Class 323 mod programmes was also run in there, where the units could happily be left for a week at a time hence not troubling the down lines (I think) with too many access moves.  Not too much later, in 2000, with ENS cancelled, we negotiated the addition of the Eurostar facility, primarily because it added a local wheel lathe to the West Coast maintenance portfolio in a place where it was sorely needed, at a time (remember gauge corner cracking) when there was renewed emphasis on tyre turning LHCS.

 

 

 

* the lease included the planned and budgeted dowry from NR for the depot operator to spend on NR's behalf

Edited January 19, 2019 by 'CHARD

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks 'Chard - it was the 323s I was thinking of in respect of Longsight.

 

I too would love to be able to travel overnight on a through train from Glasgow to Paris, but I am not sure that the service could ever have paid its way, given the likely journey time (12 hours or thereabouts ?) and probable cost, and the success of low-cost airlines would make it impossible today.

 

Great fun (maybe?) but totally uncompetitive.  I had occasion to have a meeting in Brussels the day after a meeting at Polmadie and it was a fairly straightforward, and not overtaxing, business getting out to the airport at Paisley and then having a flight on a BAC1-11 (on lease to BA) to Brussels and into the city and my usual overnight hotel.  If the sleeper had been running I wouldn't have got to Brussels in time for the meeting such were the very extended journey times of the 'beyond London' ENS trains what with shunting to reform at Kensington, adding a loco on the back at Dollands Moor, taking both locos off at Calais Ville and putting on an SNCF loco then a further loco change at the French/Belgian border.   Overall more shunting about than you used to get on 'The Night ferry' from London to Paris!  Hardly likely to appeal to most travellers and totally uncompetitive for the business market.

[Talltim]

Why weren’t the sleepers built as a variation of the Eurostar MUs?

[nightstar.train]

Why weren’t the sleepers built as a variation of the Eurostar MUs?

Because they had to work to and from multiple destinations. The Glasgow sleeper would’ve split in London and joined with the Plymouth and Cardiff sleepers to go to Paris and Brussels (in the original plan), and the sleepers from London would’ve split in France to go to various destinations. Plus the need to remove coaches for maintenance or failure.

[TravisM]

Did not a NoL set get booked for a test run from North Pole to Manchester but was cancelled because of fears of signalling electrical interference and then abandoned.

[The Stationmaster]

Did not a NoL set get booked for a test run from North Pole to Manchester but was cancelled because of fears of signalling electrical interference and then abandoned.

 

A NoL set did do a filming run to Manchester (or rather a run which was used for filming).  No fear of any electrical problems as the WCML was fully cleared electrically on all the intended Regional Eurostar routes by then.

Because they had to work to and from multiple destinations. The Glasgow sleeper would’ve split in London and joined with the Plymouth and Cardiff sleepers to go to Paris and Brussels (in the original plan), and the sleepers from London would’ve split in France to go to various destinations. Plus the need to remove coaches for maintenance or failure.

 

But of course, as DB eventually tumbled, it was a major maintenance depot job to actually get any vehicles out of or back into an ENS set because only the end vehicles had conventional couplings - the sets were basically semi permanently coupled internally.

 

Incidentally the London starters were through trains to Frankfurt and Amsterdam with, in the main approved scheme, no intermediate remarshalling.  The first route to operate would have been London-Frankfurt which was considered to have the best commercial case of all the routes.