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The other day I promised to air my approach to bogie construction.   Don't get me wrong, what follows is in no way criticism of the Masterclass/2mm Assoc. etch for the standard 8' 6" Gresley bogie (which is a lovely example of the art).   It is about how I adapted the construction method to enable 8 articulated sausages and 2, just about opposable thumbs, to, as I said above, avoid making a sow's ear out of a silk purse!

 

With the first few I built, I followed the suggested methodology of soldering the bearings into the bogie stretcher and building up the laminations using the bearing cups to aid the correct location.   This was fine until the final, cosmetic, outside frame where I was above the level of the cup and struggled to get the frame square in relation to everything else.   I'm not sure what the depth of the bearing cup is, but by the time the outer frame goes on there are already five layers at 10 thou per layer less the half etch in the stretcher to position the bearing.  So, about 45 thou or just over a millimetre plus an allowance for the solder between them.   It was also suggested that the laminations should be left on the fret until the joint was made.   This was giving me 2 problems.   Firstly, I was having difficulty getting the laminations to 'stick' while manipulating the fret and, secondly, I was having trouble releasing the etch from the fret and cleaning off any tab residue.   How I wish I could find a pair of side cutters with jaws thin enough to go in the gap between the etch and the waste!

 

After struggling for 3 pairs, I cast around for another approach that would suit my cack-handedness and came up with this.   The holes in the etch to take the bearings are, as near as dammit, 1mm diameter and I had in my 'useful bits' drawer some 1mm OD aluminium tube; why not make a simple jig with a couple of pieces of tube and a scrap of wood and build the laminations up on that.   Of course, the bearings would have to go in last, but that was not going to be a problem.

DSC00827-1.jpg.a74160d7d98851cb170ac3073952d792.jpg

This works well, a distinct advantage being that each layer can have tab residue removed before fitting and can be held firmly in place while the heat does its job!   Not forgetting a quick run through with a 1mm drill bit to make sure it clears the tube.  There are still the axle box covers to be manipulated into position using a very small screwdriver to fiddle and then hold, and one day I will get all four square on a bogie, but, again, they can be cleaned up before fitting.

 

Then come the footsteps; six per bogie on Gresley NG stock and anything up to six on Thompson.   On each side there is a long step between the axle boxes and two shorter ones at the ends.   So different from the Midland style of one long one with cut outs to clear the boxes.   The steps are designed with fold up tabs that are meant to fit into slots formed between the fourth and fifth laminations of the frames.   I just could not keep these slots clear of solder and, therefore could not get the tabs to locate properly.   So, I thought, why not forget folding the tabs and just solder direct to the underside of the frame.   Fine for the middle step:

DSC00831-1.jpg.927df7291747b77af7eb713f97ccec7c.jpg

but the end ones would end up slightly higher due to the upward curve in the frame.   So, take two pieces of etch waste and solder across the ends to create a 10 thou pad for each step to attach to:

 

DSC00832-1.jpg.cebc343c912626f0ad0b07d20c7a5f2b.jpg

 

The end result being:

 

DSC00834-1.jpg.fb4e6795fe058e61c4be8845417c6179.jpg

 

A few strokes of a file to clean the inside back to the frame to avoid contact with the wheels and it's there!   The steps are now level for and aft although they are, because of ignoring the bend in the tab, a smidgen high on the frame compared to the prototype, but I don't believe that is noticeable.   I must point out here that the tolerance measures used buy this workshop are 'smidgens' and 'tads' where 2 smidgens roughly approximate to a tad!

 

I would welcome any comments on this, but, suffice to say, it works for me and has avoided me throwing my hands in the air and the whole lot in the bin!   After my latest battle of the bogies the second D250 Artic is ready for clean up and the paintshop (eventually!) and I will post a couple of pictures shortly.

 

Regards

 

John

 

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Nice coaches!

 

I do hope this is not granny egg sucking but having read (somewhere?) of your intention to fix the roofs at the ends with d/s tape could I possibly advise caution. I did this with the association NPCS Mk1 stock I built, (they have very nice resin roofs), and while the acrylic glazing also fixed the same way is fine, the roofs started rising in the middles after a while leaving a noticeable gap. This even happened to the short 4-wheel CCT. It might have just been the particular d/s tape I used, or that they needed fixing in the middles somehow with it rather than at the ends, but I then had to re-work them to fix via bolts through the middle of the underframes. This was not nice as they had been painted and finished. Would have been much better at the pre-painting stage had I known.......

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

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Another option for roofs which the St Ruth team use very effectively is with small magnets. Ive not tried it myself yet but intend to on the Midland clerestorys. Perhaps if Andy C is lurking around this thread he might be persuaded to post a couple of snaps.

 

Jerry

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Apologies for the delay in responding but I have just returned from a very enjoyable day at the British Motor Museum at Gaydon.   Cannot recommend it highly enough, well laid out, very knowledgeable staff all over the place and a lot of stunning exhibits if you are into British cars from 1890 ish to 2017.

 

Izzy, I hear what you say and am forewarned.   I have been giving roof fixing a lot more thought.   I am loathe to use long bolts through the floor as they are going to be difficult to disguise in NG stock with no toilets.   I tried to look at the thread that Steve (Atso) suggested but, unfortunately, it doesn't appear that the pictures are viewable anymore and, although I think I know what is being suggested, I'm not absolutely sure.   Jerry's suggestion does intrigue me and I'd love to see how it's done.

 

One thought that is festering in what passes for my brain is the idea of making the interior and roof as one complete unit that slots in so that only short bolts are needed to hold everything.   I can visualise a way of doing it but am unsure of which adhesive to use to marry a false ceiling to the roof.   I have a mix of resin cast, where I am assuming evostik or similar would be the choice, and 3D printed where I am have no idea how it would react to different adhesives.   Would evostik still be OK or am I looking at cyano or something?

 

Any advice will be very gratefully received.

 

Regards

 

John

 

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9 hours ago, queensquare said:

Another option for roofs which the St Ruth team use very effectively is with small magnets. Ive not tried it myself yet but intend to on the Midland clerestorys. Perhaps if Andy C is lurking around this thread he might be persuaded to post a couple of snaps.

 

Jerry

Jerry,

I'm not sure that Andy C has used magnets to secure coach rooves - he has certainly used them as the inner couplings of rakes of coaches.  However, both he and I have used magnets to secure brake van rooves though, and I see no reason why they couldn't be used for coaches (I was going to use them to secure the clerestory part of my one and only clerestory coach but in the end soldered it to the main roof as I had left a hole in the main roof below the clerestory to allow access for the iron).

Ian

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1 minute ago, Ian Smith said:

Jerry,

I'm not sure that Andy C has used magnets to secure coach rooves - he has certainly used them as the inner couplings of rakes of coaches.  However, both he and I have used magnets to secure brake van rooves though, and I see no reason why they couldn't be used for coaches (I was going to use them to secure the clerestory part of my one and only clerestory coach but in the end soldered it to the main roof as I had left a hole in the main roof below the clerestory to allow access for the iron).

Ian

 

Andy Carlson does use magnets for his coach roofs. Both at the ends and in the middle. I have discussed with him where they would be placed in my resin and 3D-printed roofs.

 

Chris

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57 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Andy Carlson does use magnets for his coach roofs. Both at the ends and in the middle. I have discussed with him where they would be placed in my resin and 3D-printed roofs.

 

Chris

 

Indeed he does :)

 

I will try to dig up some photos but dont have any to hand right now.

 

He also uses them for couplings... and (above the fiddle yard exit) to switch the lights on and off using Layouts4U latching reed switches.

 

Quite handy things, magnets really.

 

Regards, Andy

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In my Lancashire Carriage Works, I too use magnets to affix my coach roofs (didn't it used to be rooves?).

 

These are 2mm dia. x 1mm neodymium magnets bought on line by the gazillion.

On the masterclass resin roofs there is a convenient ridge in which to bury them - I drill a shallow hole and fix them in with cyano.

They are attracted to a ledge bent up from 10 thou. strip steel, soldered onto the coach end.

I found that 2 of these magnets each end gave the optimum fixing.

The photo below should explain everything better than words...

1838576154_magnetsandledge.jpg.9e60b603c4de6c27ec6e70dc42542713.jpg

You may notice in the above photo I have also added a length of 1.0 x 0.5 mm strip (actually Association plain strip rail) above the windows for strength. I don't know if this is really necessary.

You can see I have quite a few roofs prepared as part of a great carriage building project I may get on with once I conquer my addiction to building inappropriate locomotives...

roof_line_up.JPG.dfca230af07cbd6d679a5af61dcb91b6.JPG

 

While I'm sharing my carriage-building secrets (and here seems an appropriate place), I have another couple of things I do to Masterclass coaches...

 

I have finally hit upon a good way of fitting bogies to the LMS carriages, having decided I didn't like the fold-up boxes and washers included as part of the underframe etches.

I solder a 10BA nut directly onto the underneath of the chassis, and a couple of lengths of 1.5mm rod (nickel silver in this photo) either side of it. These stand a gnat's whisker proud of the bottom of the sole bar etches.

To fix the bogie, I use a 2mm Association phosphor bronze axle bearing, with the hole opened out to 1.65mm to clear the 10BA bolt.

The hole in the bogie is opened out with broaches to be a running fit on the bearing.

I find that the depth of the bearing gives just enough clearance for the bogie to rock backwards and forwards. The nickel silver rods prevent any side-to-side rocking, so the coach rides wobble-free - something I had found difficult to achieve in the past. The bolt can be done up tight, and won't vibrate loose.

500543760_bogiefitting.jpg.404516eb629a483e84ae50a42c99fb0b.jpg

 

My final tip goes back to the roofs. For Stanier period coaches, the plain resin roofs need some representation of the strips covering the panel joints to be added.

I have found something that doesn't look horrendously overscale in Jammydog micro masking tape. This is very thin paper tape, available in a variety of widths down to 0.5mm - which is what I have been using.

Nice features are that I can see my pencil marks on the roof through it, and it is re-positionable.

My method of application is to cut an over-long strip, stick it in position on the roof (checking with a square) and press it into the guttering with my fingernail. The excess is then trimmed off carefully with a curved scalpel blade aimed into the corner of the gutter.

The adhesive isn't too strong, but once painted it won't go anywhere.

199208470_roofstrip.jpg.2eaf66dbe4789777353cc589de5150fb.jpg

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8 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

In my Lancashire Carriage Works, I too use magnets to affix my coach roofs (didn't it used to be rooves?).

 

These are 2mm dia. x 1mm neodymium magnets bought on line by the gazillion.

On the masterclass resin roofs there is a convenient ridge in which to bury them - I drill a shallow hole and fix them in with cyano.

They are attracted to a ledge bent up from 10 thou. strip steel, soldered onto the coach end.

I found that 2 of these magnets each end gave the optimum fixing.

The photo below should explain everything better than words...

1838576154_magnetsandledge.jpg.9e60b603c4de6c27ec6e70dc42542713.jpg

You may notice in the above photo I have also added a length of 1.0 x 0.5 mm strip (actually Association plain strip rail) above the windows for strength. I don't know if this is really necessary.

You can see I have quite a few roofs prepared as part of a great carriage building project I may get on with once I conquer my addiction to building inappropriate locomotives...

roof_line_up.JPG.dfca230af07cbd6d679a5af61dcb91b6.JPG

 

While I'm sharing my carriage-building secrets (and here seems an appropriate place), I have another couple of things I do to Masterclass coaches...

 

I have finally hit upon a good way of fitting bogies to the LMS carriages, having decided I didn't like the fold-up boxes and washers included as part of the underframe etches.

I solder a 10BA nut directly onto the underneath of the chassis, and a couple of lengths of 1.5mm rod (nickel silver in this photo) either side of it. These stand a gnat's whisker proud of the bottom of the sole bar etches.

To fix the bogie, I use a 2mm Association phosphor bronze axle bearing, with the hole opened out to 1.65mm to clear the 10BA bolt.

The hole in the bogie is opened out with broaches to be a running fit on the bearing.

I find that the depth of the bearing gives just enough clearance for the bogie to rock backwards and forwards. The nickel silver rods prevent any side-to-side rocking, so the coach rides wobble-free - something I had found difficult to achieve in the past. The bolt can be done up tight, and won't vibrate loose.

500543760_bogiefitting.jpg.404516eb629a483e84ae50a42c99fb0b.jpg

 

My final tip goes back to the roofs. For Stanier period coaches, the plain resin roofs need some representation of the strips covering the panel joints to be added.

I have found something that doesn't look horrendously overscale in Jammydog micro masking tape. This is very thin paper tape, available in a variety of widths down to 0.5mm - which is what I have been using.

Nice features are that I can see my pencil marks on the roof through it, and it is re-positionable.

My method of application is to cut an over-long strip, stick it in position on the roof (checking with a square) and press it into the guttering with my fingernail. The excess is then trimmed off carefully with a curved scalpel blade aimed into the corner of the gutter.

The adhesive isn't too strong, but once painted it won't go anywhere.

199208470_roofstrip.jpg.2eaf66dbe4789777353cc589de5150fb.jpg

 

Nick

 

Thank you very much for this.   The mention of magnets had me wondering how on earth to fit them and I now see!   Next job - get some magnets.   If the ones I am looking at on-line are similar (they are quoting a pull of about 1.5g) they seem extremely cheap.   I also like the idea of a strengthener along the top of the sides, unfortunately there is only 1mm between the top of the window and the roof edge on the stock I am building and I think I need that to secure the glazing.   With a roof in position the sides seem to be stiff enough to resist normal, gentle, handling.   With the resin roofs fixing the ends seems sufficient but with the 3D printed ones I may have to look at something in the middle as they seem to have a slight bow in them that straightens with very little pressure, unless anyone can suggest a method of removing the bow without, potentially, damaging the roof.

 

Your tip about bogie mounting I am going to give a try.  The idea of being able to do the screw up tight certainly appeals.    At the moment I am using the fold-up boxes, 1 on the bogie stretcher and one on the underframe, with a washer between them - an etched circle at one end and an etched cross bar at the other.   The underframe box traps a filed down 10BA nut.   In my case the mounting is level with the solebar.  The ride height is probably a tad over scale but the bogies will swing enough the negotiate 2ft curves without the wheels clashing with the sole bars.   In order to secure the mounting bolt from vibration I put another 10BA nut on the end of the bolt where it passes through the underframe to act as a locknut. 

 

Again, thanks very much for the tips.

 

Regards

 

John

 

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33 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

 

Nick

 

Thank you very much for this.   The mention of magnets had me wondering how on earth to fit them and I now see!   Next job - get some magnets.   If the ones I am looking at on-line are similar (they are quoting a pull of about 1.5g) they seem extremely cheap.   I also like the idea of a strengthener along the top of the sides, unfortunately there is only 1mm between the top of the window and the roof edge on the stock I am building and I think I need that to secure the glazing.   With a roof in position the sides seem to be stiff enough to resist normal, gentle, handling.   With the resin roofs fixing the ends seems sufficient but with the 3D printed ones I may have to look at something in the middle as they seem to have a slight bow in them that straightens with very little pressure, unless anyone can suggest a method of removing the bow without, potentially, damaging the roof.

 

Your tip about bogie mounting I am going to give a try.  The idea of being able to do the screw up tight certainly appeals.    At the moment I am using the fold-up boxes, 1 on the bogie stretcher and one on the underframe, with a washer between them - an etched circle at one end and an etched cross bar at the other.   The underframe box traps a filed down 10BA nut.   In my case the mounting is level with the solebar.  The ride height is probably a tad over scale but the bogies will swing enough the negotiate 2ft curves without the wheels clashing with the sole bars.   In order to secure the mounting bolt from vibration I put another 10BA nut on the end of the bolt where it passes through the underframe to act as a locknut. 

 

Again, thanks very much for the tips.

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

Hi John,

 

Regarding removing the bow, hot water (not boiling!) and applying light pressure to the top of the roof while it is sitting on a dead flat surface should do the trick. However, you'll need to be careful not to alter the curvature of the roof in the process. Also, make sure you've removed all the wax deposits from the print before you paint it, otherwise the wax will work its way through the paint over time and give the model the impression that you lightly coated it in fine glitter! A ten minute soak in white spirit and a light scrub with an old toothbrush sort this out - sorry if I'm trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs with this advice.

 

Hope this helps.

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3 minutes ago, Atso said:

 

Hi John,

 

Regarding removing the bow, hot water (not boiling!) and applying light pressure to the top of the roof while it is sitting on a dead flat surface should do the trick. However, you'll need to be careful not to alter the curvature of the roof in the process. Also, make sure you've removed all the wax deposits from the print before you paint it, otherwise the wax will work its way through the paint over time and give the model the impression that you lightly coated it in fine glitter! A ten minute soak in white spirit and a light scrub with an old toothbrush sort this out - sorry if I'm trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs with this advice.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks Steve

 

With 3D prints Granny definitely does not know how to suck eggs!   Any guide as to how long to leave it in the water?

 

John

 

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3 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

Thanks Steve

 

With 3D prints Granny definitely does not know how to suck eggs!   Any guide as to how long to leave it in the water?

 

John

 

 

Really not very long at all, try 5-10 seconds first and see how that goes, the heat will transfer very quickly - especially on thin walled sections! Leaving it too long risks deforming the whole roof. The water needs to be hot but cool enough that you can put your hand in it without burning yourself - just to the point where it would start to be uncomfortable to you.

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A picture of one of my coaches showing the magnetic roof fixing. Looks like mine is the other way up from Nick's but both ways work no doubt. Depending on the interior layout, magnets are either attached to a stretcher between the sides or else to the partition assembly, which in turn is bolted to the floor. My Ultimas have thin plastic partitions and use the stretcher method throughout with the partition assembly being split to slot into place either side of the stretchers. Four squares of soft steel (donated by Ian Smith... thank you!) are glued to the roof  - I believe the steel was originally salvaged from some in-wall electrical ducting.

 

P1060634-001.JPG.455e4ef1154248d08379c93801484ef6.JPG

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18 minutes ago, Atso said:

 

Really not very long at all, try 5-10 seconds first and see how that goes, the heat will transfer very quickly - especially on thin walled sections! Leaving it too long risks deforming the whole roof. The water needs to be hot but cool enough that you can put your hand in it without burning yourself - just to the point where it would start to be uncomfortable to you.

 

FWIW, I found that I needed hotter water than this when I did it - the things had a tendency to resume some bend afterwards, even though they were weighted down onto a glass sheet while cooling. In the end I was not far short of boiling - very nerve wracking indeed but it got them straight.

 

I also needed to introduce some slight counter-bend to get my roofs to end up straight. This was done using some thin (10 or 20 thou) packing strips atop the glass and then a cutting mat on top of those to smooth out the bend, followed by the roof, an old towel, some hardboard and a big weight.

 

I'd definitely start with less hot water and then if that doesnt work try again with hotter water if I were you. It also depends on the thickness of the roof section, so start gently and get more assertive if that doesn't do the job.

 

Regards, Andy

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2 minutes ago, D869 said:

 

FWIW, I found that I needed hotter water than this when I did it - the things had a tendency to resume some bend afterwards, even though they were weighted down onto a glass sheet while cooling. In the end I was not far short of boiling - very nerve wracking indeed but it got them straight.

 

I also needed to introduce some slight counter-bend to get my roofs to end up straight. This was done using some thin (10 or 20 thou) packing strips atop the glass and then a cutting mat on top of those to smooth out the bend, followed by the roof, an old towel, some hardboard and a big weight.

 

I'd definitely start with less hot water and then if that doesnt work try again with hotter water if I were you. It also depends on the thickness of the roof section, so start gently and get more assertive if that doesn't do the job.

 

Regards, Andy

Hi Andy

 

The curve is very slight, about 0.5mm over a length of 104mm - just enough to show a visible gap in the middle.   Would the strength of a magnet in the middle be sufficient to pull it straight?

 

John

 

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21 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

Hi Andy

 

The curve is very slight, about 0.5mm over a length of 104mm - just enough to show a visible gap in the middle.   Would the strength of a magnet in the middle be sufficient to pull it straight?

 

John

 

 

Personally, I'd fit the magnets first and see if that does the trick John.

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2 hours ago, Atso said:

 

Personally, I'd fit the magnets first and see if that does the trick John.

 

That's certainly the lower risk option but not something I've tried. IIRC mine were bent upwards at the ends and to an extent that I didn't think the magnets on their own would do the trick.

 

Regards, Andy

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37 minutes ago, D869 said:

 

That's certainly the lower risk option but not something I've tried. IIRC mine were bent upwards at the ends and to an extent that I didn't think the magnets on their own would do the trick.

 

Regards, Andy

Hi Andy

 

As I say the curve is very slight and quite light finger pressure seems to straighten it.   I will try the magnets first on a Semi Cor Lav Composite where I've got the toilet compartment to hide them and see how it goes - first I've got to order the magnets - next job!

 

Regards

 

John

 

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17 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

In my Lancashire Carriage Works, I too use magnets to affix my coach roofs (didn't it used to be rooves?).

 

These are 2mm dia. x 1mm neodymium magnets bought on line by the gazillion.

On the masterclass resin roofs there is a convenient ridge in which to bury them - I drill a shallow hole and fix them in with cyano.

They are attracted to a ledge bent up from 10 thou. strip steel, soldered onto the coach end.

I found that 2 of these magnets each end gave the optimum fixing.

The photo below should explain everything better than words...

1838576154_magnetsandledge.jpg.9e60b603c4de6c27ec6e70dc42542713.jpg

You may notice in the above photo I have also added a length of 1.0 x 0.5 mm strip (actually Association plain strip rail) above the windows for strength. I don't know if this is really necessary.

You can see I have quite a few roofs prepared as part of a great carriage building project I may get on with once I conquer my addiction to building inappropriate locomotives...

roof_line_up.JPG.dfca230af07cbd6d679a5af61dcb91b6.JPG

 

While I'm sharing my carriage-building secrets (and here seems an appropriate place), I have another couple of things I do to Masterclass coaches...

 

I have finally hit upon a good way of fitting bogies to the LMS carriages, having decided I didn't like the fold-up boxes and washers included as part of the underframe etches.

I solder a 10BA nut directly onto the underneath of the chassis, and a couple of lengths of 1.5mm rod (nickel silver in this photo) either side of it. These stand a gnat's whisker proud of the bottom of the sole bar etches.

To fix the bogie, I use a 2mm Association phosphor bronze axle bearing, with the hole opened out to 1.65mm to clear the 10BA bolt.

The hole in the bogie is opened out with broaches to be a running fit on the bearing.

I find that the depth of the bearing gives just enough clearance for the bogie to rock backwards and forwards. The nickel silver rods prevent any side-to-side rocking, so the coach rides wobble-free - something I had found difficult to achieve in the past. The bolt can be done up tight, and won't vibrate loose.

500543760_bogiefitting.jpg.404516eb629a483e84ae50a42c99fb0b.jpg

 

My final tip goes back to the roofs. For Stanier period coaches, the plain resin roofs need some representation of the strips covering the panel joints to be added.

I have found something that doesn't look horrendously overscale in Jammydog micro masking tape. This is very thin paper tape, available in a variety of widths down to 0.5mm - which is what I have been using.

Nice features are that I can see my pencil marks on the roof through it, and it is re-positionable.

My method of application is to cut an over-long strip, stick it in position on the roof (checking with a square) and press it into the guttering with my fingernail. The excess is then trimmed off carefully with a curved scalpel blade aimed into the corner of the gutter.

The adhesive isn't too strong, but once painted it won't go anywhere.

199208470_roofstrip.jpg.2eaf66dbe4789777353cc589de5150fb.jpg

 

I've just succumbed to to trying out this method and purchased 100 magnets - hopefully that'll be enough!!!

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I bought a load of little magnets a year or so ago for another project and after searching round all over ebay eventually made my choice - they worked out at fractions of a penny each. When they arrived I was shocked to discover they came all the way from Melksham, a couple of miles up the road!!

 

Jerry

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