Barnstaple Town

[Edwardian]

Time, I think, to start a dedicated topic.  

 

The idea is to plan a layout reasonably tightly focussed upon Barnstaple Town Station, though I would like to include Rolle Quay if possible.

 

This is deemed to be a relatively practical project, given limits of time and skills, as it can be realised using RTR products on the L&B side, and I have some suitable OO LSWR stock already.  I think that I can probably utilise ready-to-lay track for both OO9 and OO, and there is plenty of published material to speed me on my way when work commences.

 

That said, the topic is largely a placeholder, and is likely to be restricted for some time to planning and occasionally stock, as no new layout construction can take place until the freelance Castle Aching layout is substantially complete. It will, however, relieve the CA topic of at least one burden!   

 

The period will start at c.1913, to reflect the altered cab and dark green livery of the Heljan L&B Manning Wardles. In due course I'd like to back-date some of these.  The ideal is to span the period c.1907-1914, and I should be able to build up LSWR stock to fit that.

 

I reproduce the plan from the CA topic below, as this represents the probable maximum extent of the features that could be modelled, although I believe that selected compression will very much be necessary.  I also include a pretty picture to get us in the mood.  Yeo is my Christmas present to myself.  The T1 is painted by C R Phillips and is the project's Pride and Joy. The Ilfracombe Goods, of which probably only the tender will be used, together with a more accurate loco chassis and new body, arrived this morning. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

It's an attractive idea - it ought not be too big a layout. I've been following the L&B since reading an Oakwood Press book on it (Catchpole?) 30 years ago. It's the passenger carriages that particularly appeal to me - magnificent vehicles; it's been a delight to travel in them. I've an idea for a small layout, but mine would be the Loddon & Blackwater Railway - if there's any main-line exchange, it would be with the South Eastern, but I suspect it's primarily a biscuit-feeder line...

 

I'm wondering about the operating potential of Barnstaple Town? The point has been made that goods traffic was not exchanged via the transhipment siding or the loading bank but by cartage between Barnstaple Junction and Pilton. I suspect the transhipment siding's real function may have been to transfer rolling stock - certainly the locomotives were delivered that way. You've had me browsing photos of Barnstaple Town on line and also looking through the youtube gallery linked from the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway's website. At about 1:10 on the youtube gallery, there's a photo of Yeo being delivered at the transhipment siding in 1897. She's arrived brand new from Manning, Wardle & Co. of Hunslet, Leeds, so it's no surprise that the well wagon she's on can be identified as a Midland Railway 30 ton boiler truck of 1875 - its number is 295xx, so it could well be No. 29570 illustrated in Plate 337 of Midland Wagons Vol. 1, or perhaps No. 29571; it could be one of its last trips since Lot 412 of 14 June 1897 authorised the construction of four 30 ton trolleys, two of which took these numbers and the other two, new numbers. These replacement trolleys were in the diagram book as D309. 

 

There's no escaping the tentacles of the mighty Derby octopus!

[Edwardian]

It's an attractive idea - it ought not be too big a layout. I've been following the L&B since reading an Oakwood Press book on it (Catchpole?) 30 years ago. It's the passenger carriages that particularly appeal to me - magnificent vehicles; it's been a delight to travel in them. I've an idea for a small layout, but mine would be the Loddon & Blackwater Railway - if there's any main-line exchange, it would be with the South Eastern, but I suspect it's primarily a biscuit-feeder line...

 

 

 

Great idea. Scope for a small blue Peckett or 2 and your rather good wagons to match. 

 

 

 

I'm wondering about the operating potential of Barnstaple Town? The point has been made that goods traffic was not exchanged via the transhipment siding or the loading bank but by cartage between Barnstaple Junction and Pilton. I suspect the transhipment siding's real function may have been to transfer rolling stock-

 

I agree.  The L&B side operated as a terminus.  Their goods wagons do crop up in pictures of the station, but the main activity would I suppose be running around passenger trains. 

 

The LSW side operated as a through station, but, again, the loop is sometimes seen with goods vehicles.  I suspect this relates to working Rolle Quay. 

 

Because relatively little seems to have happened at the transhipment sidings, for maximum operational potential for both railways, I suspect one needs to find a way to include both Rolle Quay and Pilton Yard. The latter is not currently 'on the map' as it were, but good to include if possible.  

 

As you may infer from CA's very simple track-plan and the lack of even a headshunt, complex operations are not really essential for me!

 

 

 

 

There's no escaping the tentacles of the mighty Derby octopus!

 

 

True [sigh]. I'm modelling the Lynton & Barnstaple because it was one of the few pre-Grouping companies not to have a D299 5-plank on its metals! 

[Compound2632]

True [sigh]. I'm modelling the Lynton & Barnstaple because it was one of the few pre-Grouping companies not to have a D299 5-plank on its metals! 

 

... yes, it's a shame the L&B didn't have any standard gauge transporter wagons, like those on the Leek & Manifold - though with the widest L&B stock - the Howard vans - being 6'10 3/4" overall*, a 7'5"-wide wagon might have been out of gauge.

 

*You see you've got me digging out my much-thumbed volume: L.T. Catchpole, The Lynton & Barnstaple Railway 1895-1935 (Oakwood Press, 7th edition 1988). Also Railway Modeller June 1983 and October 1985, featuring Henry Holdsworth's 16 mm scale indoor layout Lynbridge - this was where I first discovered the L&B and its magnificent carriages. To my eyes, there is something not quite right about the proportions of the Peco carriages; I've refrained from buying any so can't quite pin down the problem.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[IWCR]

I started a Barnstaple Town model years ago, (still started).

The siding here certainly was used for goods transhipment, several photos exist of crates etc stacked waiting for collection and it was also used for coal.  However as stated above much was loaded at Pilton.  The standard gauge goods sidings were at Barnstaple Junction  and  I suspect smallish quantities / part loads would be unloaded there for road transport to Pilton.  Possibly the Town siding was only used for full wagon loads to the L&B, it had no road access for other traffic.  Coal would also have arrived by sea direct to the L&B Rolle Quay. 

 

Pete

[Edwardian]

Posted Today, 10:21

Here is a picture of a LSWR train, dated 1907, on the Taw Bridge at Barnstaple. It is not great resolution, I'm afraid.

 

The picture is captioned "An O2 0-4-4T crosses Barnstaple bridge in October 1907 with a down train of four-wheelers. ..."

 

I assume it shows the LSW branch set of the period with three GW vehicles at the rear, working through from Taunton.  

 

I want to test my identification of the vehicles in the picture. For good order I will do this over consecutive posts.

 

The train locomotive

 

I realise that the author probably had access to a must clear image than I do, but I am going to stick my neck out here; I don't think this is an O2.  To me, its bulk and certain details suggest it is the O2's Big Brother, the T1. Two features, even at this resolution, suggest T1 over O2 to me.  Forst is the cab side cut out, particularly at the lower rear; the shape looks more like the T1 to me.  OK, it's subtle. Second, and, I think, clearer, the size and shape of the front splasher/sandbox is more T1 than O2

 

What do you think?    

 

 

 

[brianusa]

Interesting layout potential, great location and era so should be an excellent subject.

 

Brian

[Theheretic]

This was posted on another thread a few weeks ago but for those that missed it:

 

 

The period of this film (1898) is a little before your chosen time (early 1900's) but it shows the layout of both the Barnstaple town and quay stations.

 

I have read that around the turn of the 19/20th century fully 25% of the workforce in Great Britain was engaged in railway service. When I look at this short film I can really get the feel for the number of people (men) needed at that time to run the railways.

 

Best regards,

 

Pierre

[Edwardian]

This was posted on another thread a few weeks ago but for those that missed it:

 

 

The period of this film (1898) is a little before your chosen time (early 1900's) but it shows the layout of both the Barnstaple town and quay stations.

 

I have read that around the turn of the 19/20th century fully 25% of the workforce in Great Britain was engaged in railway service. When I look at this short film I can really get the feel for the number of people (men) needed at that time to run the railways.

 

Best regards,

 

Pierre

 

Pierre, thank you.

 

It is a while since I watched this film, so thank you, and it is hugely helpful to have a link to it posted on the first page of this topic, as the journey on the standard gauge covers pretty much the entire length of the possible layout!

 

It is good for all sorts of detail; the flagmen, the check rails, and many lineside details not adequately captured in period photographs. 

 

The great interest is that (at 1898), as you say, it shows both the Quay Station (not yet demolished) and the brand new Town Station (opened in 1898 to serve the SW and the L&B).

 

1907 Bridge train

 

Returning to our picture of a LSWR train, dated 1907, on the Taw Bridge at Barnstaple.

 

The full caption to the picture is:

 

An O2 0-4-4T crosses Barnstaple bridge in October 1907 with a down train of four-wheelers. The first four are South Western and the last two Great Western. 

 

Again, I am mindful that the author no doubt had the benefit of a clearer enlargement, but I think there might be some difficulties with this statement:

 

- As suggested above, I rather think that the locomotive is a T1. I'd guess one of the Adam series with red-backed number plate and splasher beading, e.g. No.69.

 

- It appears to me that they are not all 4-wheelers.  I think the 4th and 6th vehicles are 6-wheelers

 

- As a result of a discussion with Compound, who raised the point, I think the 4th vehicle is also Great Western.

 

Consulting Weddell, volumes 1 & 3, Russell volume 1, the invaluable Penrhos website and esteemed parishioner Compound, I think we can establish likely diagrams for all the vehicles, enabling the train to be modelled.

 

Of the coaches, the last, GW coach, is of a style that could be bashed from Ratio 4-wheelers or Triang short clerestories.  The remaining 5 coaches would all need to scratch-built.   Southwark Bridge/Roxey do not cover these coaches.  I cannot say whether Branchlines do,because they do not have an online catalogue.

 

LSWR Coaches

 

So, to business, from left to right I think we have:

 

• 28' 4-wheel Brake Third, as built from 1879. There were coaches of a similar layout built later, but the length of these later coaches (30') relative to the end two GWR coaches (31') suggests the first two coaches are 28'.  Further, coaches of this vintage appear common in Edwardian views of the SW in the West Country, e.g. Lyme and Bideford, whereas I suspect that the newer coaches were concentrated to the East. 

 

• 28' 4-wheel Third, as built from 1879.

 

I think it possible to discern from the pictures the narrow eaves panel and wider waist panel, in the upper body Salmon colour, of SW coaches. 

 

• 24' 4-wheel Luggage Van to drawing DN97A of 1887.  You can even see the lettering in the centre of the upper body. They were used not only for luggage, but parcels, perishables and newspapers. What is this one conveying to Ilfracombe I wonder?   

 

The 4th Coach

 

The caption claims this is also a SW coach, and, influenced by that, I tentatively identified it as a 32' 6-wheel Tri-Compo of 1880/1. Before reading the caption, I would have assumed it was another GW coach, however.  It struck Compound in the same way and I think he is correct to say so and to correct the identification. 

 

It seems to be a 5-compartment vehicle. Though barely discernible, I would say the eves panels are deeper, or deeper at least in places, and that the waist panel is narrower than on the SW coaches. Not, I think, in doubt, is that the waist panel is in the dark lower body colour.  This suggests GW, not SW, livery.

 

The grab handles are obvious here, and look more likely to be the GW type, which can also be perceived in the last two coaches in the train.  

 

So, a GW coach. What else can we deduce? It might be that we see a single arc roof and it might be that we are seeing deeper eves panels over the doors than over the windows, perhaps indicating that this vehicle is to the so-called transitional style illustrated on the Penrhos website.

 

I think that we can be reasonably confident that it is a 28' vehicle in the photograph.  Although not a perfect exercise, I think that based on its apparent length relative to the the other coaches in the train, it is a 28' vehicle: 

 

- It is not so long as the 2 end coaches, which I reckon at 31';

 

- It is noticeably longer than the 24' SW luggage van

 

- It appears to be the same length as the two leading SW coaches, which are 28'

 

Put all those features together and that suggests to me that the 4th coach is a GWR 28' 6-wheel arc-roofed 5-compartment Third to diagram S6 (1886), a diagram of 40 coaches at this time. 

 

If it were not for the apparent disparity in eaves panel heights, it might have been be one of the very numerous S3s. If the disparity has been greater, it could have been a S8, my alternate suggestion. Penrhos has concurred, however, that it is a S6, so I am happy to settle for that. 

 

The CCT

 

The depth of the curved roof is characteristic of GW CCTs/Pythons, and is discernibly deeper than the SW CCT roof profile.  This, then, is a GWR 4-wheel covered carriage truck, consistent with diagram P7.  

 

The GWR Coaches

 

For the last two, GW, coaches, their length relative to the SW coaches suggests the standard 31'. From left to right I think they are :

 

• 31' 6-wheel arc-roofed 1st/2nd Luggage Composite to diagram U16 (1872-74 (showing deeper eaves panels)); and,

 

• 31' 4-wheel elliptical-roofed Van Third to diagram T32 (1891/4).  It could be T33 if no look-out projection is present, but I rather fancy that I can discern one here. 

 

Penrhos has kindly confirmed this identification.

 

So, there we have it, the vehicles in the train have been identified with sufficient confidence to allow a model of it to be attempted.  Phew!

 

5 of the 6 coaches must, I think, be scratch-built, but it is good to have the chance to make up a train with 3 Great Western coaches representing three different eaves panel styles!

 

Pictures of the 1907 train and of a T1 and the SW vehicles below ...

 

References:

 

The North Devon Line, The Southern Railway Route between Exeter and Ilfracombe, Nicholas and Reeve

LSWR Carriages Volumes 1 and 3, G R Weddell

A Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches, Part 1, J H Russell

Penrhos Junctions & GWR Dean Era Coaches, http://www.penrhos.me.uk

[Edwardian]

The stated period for the layout is 1907-1914.

 

1907 is a significant year because a photographer toured the line and we have a number of pictures from this time. That said, I suspect some pictures attributed to 1907 are later.  In one instance a branch-set not rebuilt as such until at least 1909 features in one and I have seen pictures of the same T1 simultaneously credited as in London and Ilfracombe!

 

Currently these posts are working forward from the early end of the date-range, so feature some 4 and 6 wheel stock, though SW bogie coaches are already evident in the form of through portions to Ilfracombe.

 

In terms of locomotives, I think I can operate the SW side with five locomotives that would have typified the line during the period: 

 

- T1 0-4-4T No.69, Adams condition in Drummond passenger livery 

 

- T1 0-4-4T No.363, This was one of the Drummond batch, so would have had a Drummond number plate.  here, though, I will go for the transfer numbers introduced later.  Again, Drummond passenger livery

 

- A12 0-4-2 Jubilee.  The version will depend on what I can get hold of.  I think the Nu Cast kit has the standard tender, but I would like a non-standard tender.  More on this later.  Drummond passenger livery.  If anyone spots a Nu Cast kit for sale ....

 

- 380 Class 4-4-0 Steamroller, an early Adams class that looks like a tender version of the Radial tank (as, indeed, it will be!) that was pretty much the only 4-4-0 that would fit of the Ilfracombe turntable pre-WW1.  As a mixed traffic type I think this would wear goods livery, lined holly green.  

 

- Ilfracombe Goods 0-6-0, No.0394.  The last survivor at Barnstaple and perhaps only seen on rare outings. One of the later pair, in substantially unrebuilt form. Though I struggle to make out any lining, either in the 1902 pictures or that of 1907, in theory I would think this should also be in lined holly green. It appears plain however.  Holly green or, say, black?  The model I have acquired is rather more olive green, but perhaps nothing turns on that?

[Compound2632]

Since the photo of the train on the bridge is clearly a key reference, is it worth trying to track down a higher-resolution print? Does the source in which it is reproduced give photo credits?

[Northroader]

Just checking, you do know there’s drawings and photos of Barnstaple Town station in the Ian Allen book “S R country stations part 1 -LSWR”?(it was published some time ago)

Edited January 27, 2019 by Northroader

[Siberian Snooper]

Here are links to the 1903 revision 25 inch maps, published in 1904. These cover the area in question.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998000

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998030

[Hroth]

Here are links to the 1903 revision 25 inch maps, published in 1904. These cover the area in question.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998000

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998030

 

The NLS OS Map digitisations are a great resource, I've used them several times (with one project on the go at the moment).  However, It must be me, but I always find that points of particular interest are always located at the edges...

[St Enodoc]

The NLS OS Map digitisations are a great resource, I've used them several times (with one project on the go at the moment).  However, It must be me, but I always find that points of particular interest are always located at the edges...

...or in the folds?

[roundhouse]

The first link does show up Pilton yard very clearly. Used to walk past there a lot when visiting a friend back in the 80's but never took any shots before the ifre destroyed the buildings.

 

Look forward to the layout build of the Town station.

[Edwardian]

Since the photo of the train on the bridge is clearly a key reference, is it worth trying to track down a higher-resolution print? Does the source in which it is reproduced give photo credits?

 

What, when I was having so much fun?!?

 

It does not appear to be credited, from which I infer that it may be in the either author's collection.  Perhaps I should investigate further.

 

 

Just checking, you do know there’s drawings and photos of Barnstaple Town station in the Ian Allen book “S R country stations part 1 -LSWR”?(it was published some time ago)

 

Yes, I have this.  Reproduced at 2mm scale.

 

However, the Lynton & Barnstaple Measured & Drawn volume has comprehensive drawings at 1:100 scale, the detail even including the individual stones forming the structure. 

 

Never built a building to a plan, that I could make up, or one with a right angle come to that, so these drawings are somewhat intimidating, especially those of the platform canopy. 

 

Here are links to the 1903 revision 25 inch maps, published in 1904. These cover the area in question.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998000

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998030

 

That is very helpful, thanks

[roundhouse]

 

 

However, the Lynton & Barnstaple Measured & Drawn volume has comprehensive drawings at 1:100 scale, the detail even including the individual stones forming the structure. 

 

 

Yes its a superb book and gives me all the plans to build Blackmoor Gate which I ma hoping to do pretty much to scale in circa 1930. A trip is planned for next month to get photos of the building despite its alterations.

[Edwardian]

Yes its a superb book and gives me all the plans to build Blackmoor Gate which I ma hoping to do pretty much to scale in circa 1930. A trip is planned for next month to get photos of the building despite its alterations.

 

That would be good to see, I hope the project goes well.

 

If I build this project, I might end up doing some out-of-period Grouping Era running (mainly so I can run whole Great Western trains, Mwahahahah!)

[Nick Holliday]

The NLS OS Map digitisations are a great resource, I've used them several times (with one project on the go at the moment).  However, It must be me, but I always find that points of particular interest are always located at the edges...

Where are the edges if you opt for the seamless option at the entry screen?

https://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch-england-and-wales/

[Edwardian]

Where are the edges if you opt for the seamless option at the entry screen?

https://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch-england-and-wales/

[Compound2632]

Where are the edges if you opt for the seamless option at the entry screen?

https://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch-england-and-wales/

 

This can lead to some disturbing discontinuities such as when the Great Central's Lomdon Extension pops in and out of existence depending on the survey date of the sheet!

[Annie]

 

[Compound2632]

Some gauge widening going on there...

 

An interesting re-use for a redundant building, though, with good use being made of the platform canopy.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Some gauge widening going on there...

 

An interesting re-use for a redundant building, though, with good use being made of the platform canopy.

I confess that I have never been to Barnstaple and, indeed, may never go, but I though the town station had become an Indian restaurant.