SR Push-Pull Sets from Triang Clerestories

[sem34090]

Hello! This is basically a re-post from my workbench thread as I figured the question may be better answered here than in the pre-grouping section:
 

 

So, the plan for the clerestories...

 

I've decided that they'll be used to form up a push-pull set. This will be to complement my M7 and will be for use on Beauclere and possibly Blackstone West.

 

Now, any suggestions as to what SR Push-Pull sets would most readily lend themselves to bashing from Triang Clerestories? Given Beauclere is set to be SR Western Division and the loco generally seen on the set will be an M7 (Or possibly a T1 - Did they ever get fitted for push-pull working?) it makes sense to me that the set be ex-LSWR, but I'm also looking at ex-SECR sets. Ex-LBSCR would be better-off formed from Ratio Midland coaches. I note that the bogies currently under my clerestories (whitemetal ones, I assume they're Dean) look similar to SECR ones.

 

So, the basic questions I'm asking here are:

• Which SR Push-Pull sets are most readily created from Triang Clerestories?
• If LSWR, when were the driving end styles converted from three windows to LBSCR-style four windows?

The period for this set is pre-1933 but post-1925. Incidentally, when did the Southern start converting ex-LSWR locos to the Westinghouse Air-Operated Push-Pull system?

Currently to me it looks like a conversion to an SECR Push-Pull set is easier, even though I'd rather like an  LSWR one.

 

[Miss Prism]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67897-southern-coaches-from-old-triang-clerestorys/

 

The Terry Gough series of articles, overall title "Early Southern Coaches", in the Railway Modeller are:

 

Aug 1966 Part 1 LBSCR Third (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Sep 1966 Part 2 LBSCR Composites & Brake 3rds (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1966 Part 3 LSWR 56' stock , Comp & Bk/3rd (56') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Jun 1967 Part 4 LSWR Corridor stock (56' etc) convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1967 Part 5 LSWR Ironclads incl push-pull (57') convs. from Graham Farish suburbans.

Oct 1967 Part 6 SECR Birdcage stock (45'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Dec 1967 Part 7 SECR Composite (50'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Feb 1968 Part 8 Restaurant cars (56' LSW clerestory) conv. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches,

(60' Ironclad) suggested conv. from Graham Farish suburbans.

[bécasse]

Triang clerestories form an excellent base for making up many of the ex-LBSCR sets but not the ex-LSWR or ex-SECR ones. You really need Mike King's book on the subject to answer your other queries as the whole area is a complex minefield which Mike explains well.

 

Brighton motor sets didn't do a lot of work on most of the ex-LSWR system (and in fact a lot of it didn't really see motor sets at all) but many of the conversions were done with a specific task in mind (they cost money so needed justifiable authorisation) and Brighton vehicles could easily have been chosen for the conversions for a particular branch anywhere on the Southern.

[sem34090]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67897-southern-coaches-from-old-triang-clerestorys/

 

The Terry Gough series of articles, overall title "Early Southern Coaches", in the Railway Modeller are:

 

Aug 1966 Part 1 LBSCR Third (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Sep 1966 Part 2 LBSCR Composites & Brake 3rds (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1966 Part 3 LSWR 56' stock , Comp & Bk/3rd (56') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Jun 1967 Part 4 LSWR Corridor stock (56' etc) convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1967 Part 5 LSWR Ironclads incl push-pull (57') convs. from Graham Farish suburbans.

Oct 1967 Part 6 SECR Birdcage stock (45'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Dec 1967 Part 7 SECR Composite (50'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Feb 1968 Part 8 Restaurant cars (56' LSW clerestory) conv. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches,

(60' Ironclad) suggested conv. from Graham Farish suburbans.

I already have the articles that I've highlighted in red. There's an additional one on converting Ratio GWR 4-Wheelers into SECR 4-Wheelers.

 

Triang clerestories form an excellent base for making up many of the ex-LBSCR sets but not the ex-LSWR or ex-SECR ones. You really need Mike King's book on the subject to answer your other queries as the whole area is a complex minefield which Mike explains well.

 

Brighton motor sets didn't do a lot of work on most of the ex-LSWR system (and in fact a lot of it didn't really see motor sets at all) but many of the conversions were done with a specific task in mind (they cost money so needed justifiable authorisation) and Brighton vehicles could easily have been chosen for the conversions for a particular branch anywhere on the Southern.

I intend on doing up a Brighton set from Ratio MR Coaches. The LSWR sets I intend  doing would preferably be as per those used on the Mid Hants line. Am I right in thinking, from what you're suggesting, that a lot of the push-pull conversions were later and as such wouldn't be suitable for my pre-1933 time period?

 

If the latter is the case then I'd be interested to know what else could be made up from a pair of Triang Clerestory brakes and a pair of firsts.

[Nick Holliday]

Hello! This is basically a re-post from my workbench thread as I figured the question may be better answered here than in the pre-grouping section:

 

I've decided that they'll be used to form up a push-pull set. This will be to complement my M7 and will be for use on Beauclere and possibly Blackstone West.

Now, any suggestions as to what SR Push-Pull sets would most readily lend themselves to bashing from Triang Clerestories? Given Beauclere is set to be SR Western Division and the loco generally seen on the set will be an M7 (Or possibly a T1 - Did they ever get fitted for push-pull working?) it makes sense to me that the set be ex-LSWR, but I'm also looking at ex-SECR sets. Ex-LBSCR would be better-off formed from Ratio Midland coaches. I note that the bogies currently under my clerestories (whitemetal ones, I assume they're Dean) look similar to SECR ones.

So, the basic questions I'm asking here are:

• Which SR Push-Pull sets are most readily created from Triang Clerestories?
• If LSWR, when were the driving end styles converted from three windows to LBSCR-style four windows?

The period for this set is pre-1933 but post-1925. Incidentally, when did the Southern start converting ex-LSWR locos to the Westinghouse Air-Operated Push-Pull system?

Currently to me it looks like a conversion to an SECR Push-Pull set is easier, even though I'd rather like an  LSWR one.

As others have said, the deeper mouldings on the Ratio MR suburban kits are a better match to the LSWR pattern than to the Brighton style, although, in isolation, they pass muster for the LBSC, as the following extract, from Ian White’s Rowfant Grange website, suggests:-

There are no RTR carriages for the LB&SCR. However, Ratio do a 48ft Midland 8 compartment carriage, the sides of which are sufficiently similar to LB&SCR 48ft 8 compartment carriages (to LB&SCR Diagram 161; SR Diagram 64) as to allow modification. The LB&SCR built 152 thirds and 2 seconds to this diagram between 1894 and 1905. The minimum modification required is the omission of the roof vents either side of the gas lamps on the roof. However, the 10ft bogies should be modified to make 8ft bogies (etched brass versions are available); the curved bottom ends replaced by straight ends (scratch built) and the corners filled; foot board moved lower (invert sole bar – foot board assembly); appropriate buffers and grab handles fitted; gas tanks moved; and truss rods replaced, as in this photograph. Most of the required fittings may be sourced from Roxey Mouldings, although the spares box proved adequate for these models, thus minimizing cost.

 

The Triang-Hornby moulding is much closer to the LBSC pattern, and bears no resemblance, to me at least, to any of the SECR designs, even if there are Terry Gough articles using them. With either of these conversions, I believe it is vital to replace the grab handles, as otherwise they continue to scream their respective origins.

So, returning to the original questions, an ex-LBSCR set would be the best bet for a Hornby conversion. According to Mike King’s book on pull-push coaches (essential reading for this project, I suspect) one set, 754, in 1928, toured both Eastern and Western routes to demonstrate the air-controlled system, and the adoption of air-control dates from March 1929, the last wire controlled set of LSWR conversions coming out in 1927. Another set, 981, was trialled on the LSWR’s Bishop Waltham branch in June 1930, and Set 723 was on the Seaton branch from 1939 to 1949.  This last comprised 1922 built stock, a seven compartment brake/driving third and a non-driving composite, seven thirds and two firsts.  These were gangwayed between coaches, and had an open side corridor, and look fairly straightforward candidates for the chop, although the fourteen third class compartments will require quite a few Triang brakes – perhaps a Slaters/Coopercraft all third side moulding, if one can be found, might be useful.

Creating an LSWR set from Ratio bits seems doable, and, given the variety of designs, it would be difficult for anyone to criticise, although most were 50’ long, whilst the Ratio kit is only 48’, (most of the Brighton coahces were 54' long) but the difference is marginal.  The biggest problem is getting the distinctive South Western roof outline correct.  As for the end windows, the change seems to have occurred around 1930, when a large batch of conversions were made, which included removing the guard’s ducket at the driving end.

Finally, the SECR stock. First of all, no SECR bogie stock was converted to pull-push usage until 1937, apart from the ex-railmotor pairs, which remained on their islands (Sheppey and Wight) for most of their lives. One set, 659, was built in 1938 and sent to Yeovil, and was unique in retaining its birdcage. This comprised a 50’ six compartment third birdcage brake and a driving brake composite, if you fancy carving up some Branchlines coaches.

Although also outside your period, around 1938 a number of SECR coaches were equipped with the necessary pipework to run with other types of driving trailer, and some shuffling of units in the thirties resulted in odd pairings of LSWR, LBSCR and SECR coaches, with different roof profiles, panelling styles and lengths. Until I realised your chosen period, I was going to suggest pairing a Worsley Works etching for one of the SECR 100 seater thirds with a Dapol 60’ coach kit, as some of these thirds were produced with matchboarded sides, others with plain sides, which would provide a bit of variety.

Regarding locos, the LSWR equipped quite a few locos with their wire-controlled apparatus, their remaining Terrier, 735, 15 of the 415 4-4-2 tanks, (Adams Radials), 8 T1 0-4-4T, around 20 O2 tanks and around 30 M7 0-4-4’s. However, during the twenties the apparatus was gradually removed, partly as a result of LBSC locos moving westwards, and when the programme for fitting the air-controlled equipment began in 1930, only 5 O2’s received the new gear, together with around 31 M7’s, up to the end of your period, all of these being the long framed variety, to accommodate the air tanks. Incidentally, two more Terriers were transferred to work on the Lee on Solent Light railway in 1925, and they were equipped with LSWR wire controls, to relieve No 735.

[sem34090]

Thank you Nick!

 

So it looks like set 754 is my best bet - I'll get started.

[wiggoforgold]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67897-southern-coaches-from-old-triang-clerestorys/ The Terry Gough series of articles, overall title "Early Southern Coaches", in the Railway Modeller are: Aug 1966 Part 1 LBSCR Third (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Sep 1966 Part 2 LBSCR Composites & Brake 3rds (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Aug 1966 Part 3 LSWR 56' stock , Comp & Bk/3rd (56') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Jun 1967 Part 4 LSWR Corridor stock (56' etc) convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Aug 1967 Part 5 LSWR Ironclads incl push-pull (57') convs. from Graham Farish suburbans.Oct 1967 Part 6 SECR Birdcage stock (45'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Dec 1967 Part 7 SECR Composite (50'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.Feb 1968 Part 8 Restaurant cars (56' LSW clerestory) conv. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches,(60' Ironclad) suggested conv. from Graham Farish suburbans.

Those Terry Gough articles seem to remain perennially relevant. I wonder if Terry ever imagined when he wrote them that they would still be being utilised nearly 60 years later?

Alex

[Dunsignalling]

Those Terry Gough articles seem to remain perennially relevant. I wonder if Terry ever imagined when he wrote them that they would still be being utilised nearly 60 years later?

Alex

I doubt he considered, either, that the "raw material" would still be readily available to ensure their relevance after so long.

 

John

[Southern Steve]

One of the first kit bashing exercises I ever mananged using Terry's articles back in the 70's.

 

 

Managed to knock up a passable ex SECR two coach pull-pull set for my first layout.

 

 

Still have the original RM's with them all in somewhere

[sem34090]

Well, I've done the hacking for the LBSCR Third for Set 754, though I'm cheating over the articles and using Ratio MR coach ends (I had some spare).

[Edwardian]

As others have said, the deeper mouldings on the Ratio MR suburban kits are a better match to the LSWR pattern than to the Brighton style, although, in isolation, they pass muster for the LBSC, as the following extract, from Ian White’s Rowfant Grange website, suggests:-

There are no RTR carriages for the LB&SCR. However, Ratio do a 48ft Midland 8 compartment carriage, the sides of which are sufficiently similar to LB&SCR 48ft 8 compartment carriages (to LB&SCR Diagram 161; SR Diagram 64) as to allow modification. The LB&SCR built 152 thirds and 2 seconds to this diagram between 1894 and 1905. The minimum modification required is the omission of the roof vents either side of the gas lamps on the roof. However, the 10ft bogies should be modified to make 8ft bogies (etched brass versions are available); the curved bottom ends replaced by straight ends (scratch built) and the corners filled; foot board moved lower (invert sole bar – foot board assembly); appropriate buffers and grab handles fitted; gas tanks moved; and truss rods replaced, as in this photograph. Most of the required fittings may be sourced from Roxey Mouldings, although the spares box proved adequate for these models, thus minimizing cost.

 

The Triang-Hornby moulding is much closer to the LBSC pattern, and bears no resemblance, to me at least, to any of the SECR designs, even if there are Terry Gough articles using them. With either of these conversions, I believe it is vital to replace the grab handles, as otherwise they continue to scream their respective origins.

So, returning to the original questions, an ex-LBSCR set would be the best bet for a Hornby conversion. According to Mike King’s book on pull-push coaches (essential reading for this project, I suspect) one set, 754, in 1928, toured both Eastern and Western routes to demonstrate the air-controlled system, and the adoption of air-control dates from March 1929, the last wire controlled set of LSWR conversions coming out in 1927. Another set, 981, was trialled on the LSWR’s Bishop Waltham branch in June 1930, and Set 723 was on the Seaton branch from 1939 to 1949.  This last comprised 1922 built stock, a seven compartment brake/driving third and a non-driving composite, seven thirds and two firsts.  These were gangwayed between coaches, and had an open side corridor, and look fairly straightforward candidates for the chop, although the fourteen third class compartments will require quite a few Triang brakes – perhaps a Slaters/Coopercraft all third side moulding, if one can be found, might be useful.

Creating an LSWR set from Ratio bits seems doable, and, given the variety of designs, it would be difficult for anyone to criticise, although most were 50’ long, whilst the Ratio kit is only 48’, (most of the Brighton coahces were 54' long) but the difference is marginal.  The biggest problem is getting the distinctive South Western roof outline correct.  As for the end windows, the change seems to have occurred around 1930, when a large batch of conversions were made, which included removing the guard’s ducket at the driving end.

Finally, the SECR stock. First of all, no SECR bogie stock was converted to pull-push usage until 1937, apart from the ex-railmotor pairs, which remained on their islands (Sheppey and Wight) for most of their lives. One set, 659, was built in 1938 and sent to Yeovil, and was unique in retaining its birdcage. This comprised a 50’ six compartment third birdcage brake and a driving brake composite, if you fancy carving up some Branchlines coaches.

Although also outside your period, around 1938 a number of SECR coaches were equipped with the necessary pipework to run with other types of driving trailer, and some shuffling of units in the thirties resulted in odd pairings of LSWR, LBSCR and SECR coaches, with different roof profiles, panelling styles and lengths. Until I realised your chosen period, I was going to suggest pairing a Worsley Works etching for one of the SECR 100 seater thirds with a Dapol 60’ coach kit, as some of these thirds were produced with matchboarded sides, others with plain sides, which would provide a bit of variety.

Regarding locos, the LSWR equipped quite a few locos with their wire-controlled apparatus, their remaining Terrier, 735, 15 of the 415 4-4-2 tanks, (Adams Radials), 8 T1 0-4-4T, around 20 O2 tanks and around 30 M7 0-4-4’s. However, during the twenties the apparatus was gradually removed, partly as a result of LBSC locos moving westwards, and when the programme for fitting the air-controlled equipment began in 1930, only 5 O2’s received the new gear, together with around 31 M7’s, up to the end of your period, all of these being the long framed variety, to accommodate the air tanks. Incidentally, two more Terriers were transferred to work on the Lee on Solent Light railway in 1925, and they were equipped with LSWR wire controls, to relieve No 735.

 

Although not conforming to any particular diagram, the Triang moulding is a really good match for 1890s-1900 GW panelling.  It also features the distinctive GW grab handles. Because of this, it is less useful for certain other companies.

 

LSWR panelling tends to have relatively narrow eaves panels and relatively wide waist panels. This means that the Triang waist panels are noticeably narrower than a LSWR waist panel.  This is more obvious in pre-Grouping livery, because the LSWR painted the waist panels in the upper body colour.

 

The Ratio Midland suburbans have a nice wide waist, but at the wrong height for a LSWR coach! 

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

My apologies for coming so late to the party, am I correct in thinking that Ratio GWR coach sides are suitable for conversion to exLSWR coaches? The example from Roger/Gilwell Park on this thread seems to indicate that this is possible, the image is taken from his excellent post.

 

 

Finding enough Tri-ang coaches might be an insurmountable problem.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe 

 

 

[bécasse]

I would have to say that, looking at that three-set, the only thing that suggests to me that it might represent ex-LSWR vehicles would be the roof profile and even that I don't think quite captures the "bulbous" effect that LSWR roofs had. The carriage sides look much more Brighton but aren't laid out in a way that would suggest a Brighton set, and, of course, it clearly isn't a SECR set.

 

When I was young the local railway was well served by "3-SUB" electric units expanded to 4-SUBs by the addition of an all-steel trailer. There was quite a variety of these units as they had been produced economically by putting rejigged pre-grouping wooden bodies on new underframes. Even I as a youngster in short trousers could tell instantly which of the three Southern constituents had built the bodies that had gone into any particular set, they were that distinctive. The same was equally true of steam-worked pull-and-push sets (where there were a few of obvious mixed origin).

[Guest Jack Benson]

On 19/01/2019 at 22:34, Miss Prism said:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67897-southern-coaches-from-old-triang-clerestorys/

 

The Terry Gough series of articles, overall title "Early Southern Coaches", in the Railway Modeller are:

 

Aug 1966 Part 1 LBSCR Third (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Sep 1966 Part 2 LBSCR Composites & Brake 3rds (54') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1966 Part 3 LSWR 56' stock , Comp & Bk/3rd (56') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Jun 1967 Part 4 LSWR Corridor stock (56' etc) convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Aug 1967 Part 5 LSWR Ironclads incl push-pull (57') convs. from Graham Farish suburbans.

Oct 1967 Part 6 SECR Birdcage stock (45'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Dec 1967 Part 7 SECR Composite (50'-60') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

Feb 1968 Part 8 Restaurant cars (56' LSW clerestory) conv. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches,

(60' Ironclad) suggested conv. from Graham Farish suburbans.

 

Sorry to be a spoilsport but this list is WRONG as August 66 appears twice, can anyone advise me as the correct issue for Part 3 LSWR 56' stock , Comp & Bk/3rd (56') convs. from Tri-ang clerestory coaches.

 

Thank you

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

[melmoth]

@Jack Benson  Part 3 is in the October 1966 Modeller.

[bécasse]

On 19/01/2019 at 21:24, sem34090 said:

Hello! This is basically a re-post from my workbench thread as I figured the question may be better answered here than in the pre-grouping section:
 

 

The GW clerestories, or at least their carriage sides, will convert readily into ex-LBSCR (non-Balloon) pull and push sets as the panelling is remarkably similar. They are a poor basis for creating ex-LSWR or ex-SECR sets but that isn't a real problem as the pull and push sets moved round the whole Southern system far more than any of the other acquired carriages did. Pull and push conversions cost money and thus each conversion was intended to fulfil a specific, and justified, need, with the most suitable surplus stock (and usually that with the lowest book value) chosen for conversion.

 

The SR standardised on the ex-LBSCR air control system for pull and push trains from the beginning of the 1930s and the four-window driving cab end became pretty much the standard at the same time (although there were already some examples in use).

 

You really need to read Mike King's book on the subject to understand the development of the pull and push units on the Southern Railway (and Region) - it is full of drawings and photographs too.

[Guest Jack Benson]

10 hours ago, melmoth said:

@Jack Benson  Part 3 is in the October 1966 Modeller.

Found and purchased

 

cheers