Photography & Video on stations

[silverlink]

Has anyone had trouble with railway security staff whilst on a station taking photos or video? looking on Youtube I've noticed a few people having problems whilst filming on station platforms with security personnel. 

I well remember when I was spotting back in the sixties I would spend the whole day on York station with camera in hand and have not one spot of trouble. Recently I was on Newcastle station with my eight year old grand daughter waiting for our train so decided to video the train departure board and the train we were catching when I was approached by a railway person and asked not to film. What was all that for!   

Ian

[Jamiel]

I have filmed on York Station and on Pickering (NYMR), for work on Masters Degree. You do have to get permission to film on a station if you are setting up a camera with a tripod etc. Technically you have to get permission as the stations although open to the public are private property. I asked in advance and filled out various forms and was given a sticker and I think had to wear a high viz jacket.
 

We did have a full film camera on a tripod and a sound recordist.
 

All that said I am surprised that someone took you to task when just waiting for a train. I wonder if they were worried that people might be using it to post how many trains were late on social media.

Jamie

[newbryford]

There are Network Rail guidelines for photography on stations, but there are a few jobsworths out there.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/railway-enthusiasts/railway-enthusiasts-and-photography-at-stations/

 

It has been previously discussed on another thread.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[beast66606]

You should have asked the person who asked you not to film for the reasons why not.

 

Things are a lot better these days and railway companies realise that enthusiasts are a useful set of eyes for unusual things - but there's still the odd staff member who gets power crazy. Presumably the same staff member went to every person who had a phone camera and told them the same thing ...

[TravisM]

Staff at First Capital Connect, now Great Northern/Thameslink especially at Finsbury Park and Huntingdon we’re very prickly about photography at the station, even when I told them I was railway staff and worked for First. From what I remember, the ATOC guidelines was that photography was permitted without permission provided they were not causing an obstruction, trip hazard or using a flash which could temporarily blind a driver and caused them to lose their night vision (that used to really p*** me off).

 

Obviously if your causing a nuisance, station staff can ask you to leave but 99.9% leave you well alone.

Edited January 20, 2019 by jools1959

[PenrithBeacon]

Ask at the booking office, they will ask you to sign in. Once you have done this you should be ok but if you encounter an awkward herbert just refer them to the booking office.

 

Do make sure you don’t get in the way of the operation of the station and keep behind the yellow lines at all times.

 

I prefer to film from unstaffed stations for obvious reasons

[newbryford]

Whatever you do, don't venture within 25 yards of the platform ends to take photos at Sheffield.

 

I was shouted at from the opposite platform by some jobsworth for going near the end...........

 

I have a planned couple of days with a rover ticket soon that may include Sheff. I will have a copy of the NR guidelines

 

Staff at First Capital Connect, now Great Northern/Thameslink especially at Finsbury Park and Huntingdon we’re very prickly about photography at the station, even when I told them I was railway staff and worked for First. From what I remember, the ATOC guidelines was that photography was permitted without permission provided they were not causing an obstruction, trip hazard or using a flash which could temporarily blind a driver and caused them to lose their night vision (that used to really p*** me off).

Obviously if your causing a nuisance, station staff can ask you to leave but 99.9% leave you well alone.

 

Problem it's the 0.1% give the others a bad reputation

[cal.n]

Problem it's the 0.1% give the others a bad reputation

 

That made my think of someone of this parish... 

 

 

Seriously, the vast majority or railway are more than happy to let you film/photo/collect numbers provided you follow the pretty sensible guidelines above. If your camera equipment is extremely large, staff may suspect commercial filming which Network Rail charge for. 

 

 

 

[stewartingram]

Staff at First Capital Connect, now Great Northern/Thameslink especially at Finsbury Park and Huntingdon we’re very prickly about photography at the station, even when I told them I was railway staff and worked for First. From what I remember, the ATOC guidelines was that photography was permitted without permission provided they were not causing an obstruction, trip hazard or using a flash which could temporarily blind a driver and caused them to lose their night vision (that used to really p*** me off).

 

Obviously if your causing a nuisance, station staff can ask you to leave but 99.9% leave you well alone.

 

 

 

Strange. This notice was on display at Hdn for a number of years, may still be there?

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

 

All that said I am surprised that someone took you to task when just waiting for a train. I wonder if they were worried that people might be using it to post how many trains were late on social media.

 

Jamie

 

I doubt they'd be worried about information about how many trains were late would be posted on social media (unless they were extremely dim) as such information is widely available on the internet (and is used by many of us to check if trains are being delayed!)

[Kelly]

In the past when Natalie has been taking photos on stations, she has had a few staff approach her, most are fine once she explained, a few say they can't let her and if she doesn't stop and leave they'll call BTP and have them arrest her and confiscate the camera, each time she's called their bluff and told them to call the BTP, who when called get very miffed with the station staff for wasting their time usually.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I doubt they'd be worried about information about how many trains were late would be posted on social media (unless they were extremely dim) as such information is widely available on the internet (and is used by many of us to check if trains are being delayed!)

Many if not all TOCs have real time information about train running on the internet. For Northern if you click on Live Departures for any station then it will give you the expected time of the next 10 departures and it can be switched to give the next ten arrivals. IIRC National Rail will give estimated time of all arrivals and departures at any station for the next two hours and can be used to track any passenger train currently running throughout the network. That's before you go to sites like Realtime Trains and other sites which even mimic the train describer display at the signal box.

 

In the past when Natalie has been taking photos on stations, she has had a few staff approach her, most are fine once she explained, a few say they can't let her and if she doesn't stop and leave they'll call BTP and have them arrest her and confiscate the camera, each time she's called their bluff and told them to call the BTP, who when called get very miffed with the station staff for wasting their time usually.

Only problem I ever had was one jobsworth who didn't want me to photograph in the direction of a CCTV camera, so I went and took pictures from a public highway and the local park. From there you get a much better view of the camera details than from the platform.

As far as my local station is concerned there is a plan with a planning application available through the Planning Portal which shows the details of access to the booking office and the position of all CCTV cameras and associated equipment.

[Wickham Green]

I've had problems at East Croydon a number of times ......... last time I stepped of a train from Brighton ( No problem there ) and hung about the platform end for a going-away shot but before the signal cleared I was being told I needed to book-in with the Station Manager etc.etc. : cut my losses and departed via the new footbridge - but realised the road had now cleared and there might be a chance of a shot after all : NOPE - platform-end jobsworth had already tipped off the footbridge jobsworth.

 

............. and, of course, all around me were people taking selfies or shots of boyfriends/girlfriends etc. on their mobile 'phones - not one of whom is likely to have been troubled by having to sign in !

[AMJ]

I have never encountered any issues with staff and I have been taking photos at stations for over 30 years.

 

The main rule of thumb I tend to work to is the no obstruction, I tend to use a mini tripod and find station furniture to rest on when taking longer night shots.

 

The only time I was approached by security staff was on MK as they indicated to the Samaritans signs as they said there had been too many jumpers from the platform location.

 

As there are many with cameras on phones even taking photos in foreign locations that you are not supposed to do so are quite easy these days.

[fezza]

I was approached at Snow Hill today while photographing a statue. Guy was polite (he was just doing his job) and told me I had to write to each train company to get permission to photograph and list the stations and locations I was photographing. As I'm doing a 7 day rover that might take awhile....

 

I pointed out this was not quite the law / rules but there was no point making a fuss... I left... 

 

A day earlier I reported a suspicious package at New Street. Guy replied saying he was rail staff not police and it was nothing to do with him. If it had been a bomb he was standing 20 yards away. 

 

Sometimes I do think this country has just lost all common sense... 

[iands]

14 minutes ago, fezza said:

I was approached at Snow Hill today while photographing a statue. Guy was polite (he was just doing his job) and told me I had to write to each train company to get permission to photograph and list the stations and locations I was photographing. As I'm doing a 7 day rover that might take awhile....

 

I pointed out this was not quite the law / rules but there was no point making a fuss... I left... 

 

A day earlier I reported a suspicious package at New Street. Guy replied saying he was rail staff not police and it was nothing to do with him. If it had been a bomb he was standing 20 yards away. 

 

Sometimes I do think this country has just lost all common sense... 

That attitude (of the staff member, not you) somewhat destroys the "See It, Say It, Sort It" messages that are broadcast to the public on trains and stations.

[John Harris]

Though it's not my "thing", I usually see at least one, often more, people on the platforms at Stratford in East London taking photos and jotting down numbers.  There are often a few at Liverpool Street too, but they tend to be on the platforms furthest from the ones I use.

 

I would also wager a small sum that teenagers taking photos on their phones are not approached.

 

jh

[Wheatley]

Photographing or noting the position of CCTV cameras (or looking like you might be) should be challenged by staff as it can be interpreted as hostile reconnaissance. The BTP will not regard that as a waste of time if a member of staff phones it in. Same applies if you appear to be taking an interest in points of access or the cash office door. 

 

Staff should also be vigilant for potential suicides, especially on high speed routes as they act as a magnet. If you are skulking around on a platform end to no obvious purpose, or even sitting quietly on a bench and making no attempt to board a train, expect to be approached although in this case it should be polite and subtle. 

 

Your 'jobsworth' may be doing exactly what they've been asked to do. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Wheatley

[DY444]

On 09/09/2020 at 00:56, Wheatley said:

Photographing or noting the position of CCTV cameras (or looking like you might be) should be challenged by staff as it can be interpreted as hostile reconnaissance. The BTP will not regard that as a waste of time if a member of staff phones it in. Same applies if you appear to be taking an interest in points of access or the cash office door. 

 

Staff should also be vigilant for potential suicides, especially on high speed routes as they act as a magnet. If you are skulking around on a platform end to no obvious purpose, or even sitting quietly on a bench and making no attempt to board a train, expect to be approached although in this case it should be polite and subtle. 

 

Your 'jobsworth' may be doing exactly what they've been asked to do. 

 

Disagree. 

 

Standard operating procedure for certain station staff seems to be that someone clearly taking photographs, often with a large SLR camera, is potential "hostile reconnaissance" whilst large numbers of people with mobile phones is not.  It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that genuine "hostile reconnaissance" is carried out by people who do not make it obvious what they are doing and mobile phones have made that far easier than it once was.

 

I do not in any way belittle the importance of security, far from it as I worked on MoD projects for many years so it is woven into my sub conscious, but all these incidents of railway enthusiasts being challenged by station staff is not "security".  It is throwing your weight around.   My experience is that the enthusiasm of some station staff for security matters is directly proportional to the "softness" of the alleged risk. 

 

I always report what I judge to be genuine security concerns and as another poster mentioned some station staff who would happily play the "security" card to an innocent rail enthusiast don't want to know if it is genuinely serious.  I recall one incident which I thought was a very serious risk and none of the staff including supervisors wanted to know.  There were no BTP in the area and I was so concerned that I ended up phoning an MoD contact who set in motion the necessary response and later confirmed that it had indeed been a genuine risk.

 

PS.  BTW it is very easy indeed, and well within the capabilities of even a tenth rate operative, to map out CCTV coverage on say a platform by simply walking along that platform a couple of times and without appearing to look at anything in particular.  The idea that someone actually doing recon would stop at each one, photograph it and then make notes in a notebook before moving to the next one is just ridiculous. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by DY444

[Wheatley]

56 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

Disagree. 

 

 

With which bit ? That hostile reconnaisance takes place, or that people hang about stations before plucking up courage before jumping in front of a train, or that staff have been briefed to be aware of both and act accordingly ?

 

Some staff are overzealous or poorly briefed, some spotters/enthusiasts/photographers are morons. Neither is typical of either group as a whole, and it's an imperfect system.

[DY444]

6 hours ago, Wheatley said:

With which bit ? That hostile reconnaisance takes place, or that people hang about stations before plucking up courage before jumping in front of a train, or that staff have been briefed to be aware of both and act accordingly ?

 

Some staff are overzealous or poorly briefed, some spotters/enthusiasts/photographers are morons. Neither is typical of either group as a whole, and it's an imperfect system.

 

I disagree with the premise that station staff telling railway enthusiasts to clear off on the basis that they pose a security risk is ever justified except in the most specific and very limited circumstances (eg if they were standing at the exact spot where The Queen was to alight from the Royal Train).  Otherwise on a random station on a normal day then it's 100% jobsworth.

 

I didn't mention people being morons so I fail to see what that has to do with jobsworth staff playing the security card.