How to deal with a modelling crisis.

[Clagsniffer]

So, where to begin. For years I’ve had this ambition to build a layout of Penzance. I’ve posted a few bits and pieces on here on the subject of track plans and train formations etc. In hindsight I went about it the wrong way. I started buying up the rolling stock and loco’s even before I had space available. I finally bought my first house with my fiancé and had use of the garage. I then built the baseboards and started to develop the track plan to suit the space. And that’s the stage I’ve been at for going on 3 years I reckon. I’ve been going in and out of the garage every few days “tweaking” and coming out frustrated. I’ve tried everything but I just can’t get it to work how I want it without compromising. So this is the crisis. It’s slowly dawning on me that I’m not going to be able to build this layout. So I’ve got baseboards built, stock purchased, timetable worked out it doesn’t look like it’s going ahead. As a result I’m so deflated, I just don’t know what to do. Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips on getting over it?

 

Thanks.

[Pete the Elaner]

Ask what it is about Penzance which makes it special to you?

Can you find this anywhere else?

Must you model a real location? If so, how much of it do you have to model?

 

The answers to those are personal to you but may help to choose what you need to re-create & what compromises you can make.

 

Modelling a real location was also important to me. The motive power I like locked me in to finding somewhere suitable on the WCML. I felt that modelling a suitable location would be unlikely but I got lucky.

I am finding it rewarding to create solutions for building structures unlike anything commercially available.

 

The compromises I have made are to re-create just a short section between some tunnels & a road bridge.

Certain aspects have to be be right: tunnel portals, station building. The area around the railway can be twisted. YOu may only have to get a few buildings in the right place to make it look like Penzance.

[Oldddudders]

Look on any of the Great Threads on RMweb, and frank owners will talk of compromise. It is a necessary part of modelling - unless you have unlimited space and resources, or a very modest imagination.

 

Identify your minimum - what is it about Penzance that provides the character you seek? - and list the must-haves, the nice-to-haves and the not-bothereds.

 

Buying trains that fit with your ideas for a future layout is something many of us do if we have available funds - or even if we don’t. That pile of locos and stock are your continuing spur to achieve a layout. They need to strut their stuff.

 

Keep doodling. Identify what is possible, and compare with that list I suggested. I bet you can come up with something which while not quite Penzance is a credible terminus which will be satisfying to both build and operate.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Right with the posts 2 and 3 above.

 

Just be prepared for the conclusion that the layout construction to date may require partial or complete demolition to enable building the layout you want. While such a conclusion will feel annoying at the very least, many of us have been there 'big time' so you will not be alone; and I think it helps forever after in fixing the layout making process as 'always design before any construction begins'. (There are gifted types who can literally make it up as they go along without a misstep, but you now know that like the majority of us, you are not in that select and happy band...)

 

Once you have a layout design that you know will work, the construction becomes a pleasure.

[The Stationmaster]

Can you post your track layout so we can see if there's a problem with it which might be easily solved or is the difficulty something other than the track layout? 

[Pete the Elaner]

34C mentions partial demolition.

Once I had figured out how to fit the layout in, dismantling the previous one felt quite enjoyable because I believed the end result would be pleasing.

The same goes with a couple of things I got wrong during building. One of the tracks was aligned badly because the Google Earth view I went by was not as clear as an older one I eventually went back to.

I also built a retaining wall far too blandly. Deciding to scrap it & rebuild it much more accurately was one of the most rewarding 'mini-projects' of it.

[Clive Mortimore]

I reached a point where I was no longer enjoying fixing the next thing that went wrong with my then layout. I did start to build some smaller ones to restore my interest. Just smaller variations on what I already had, so the construction pace was slow.  I was also starting to collect stock for that day when I could build my dream layout, not a bad thing to do as prices keep going up.

 

One night just playing with Anyrail and I "designed" a variation of the classic Minnories layout. I ripped up Hanging Hill, the layout that was causing so much doom and gloom and reused the baseboards for my Minnories based layout, Sheffield Exchange Mk1. Progress was very slow on it, not because I couldn't be bothered with it but once I had got it working I found I was enjoying operating it and I lost my blues about model raiwlays. I have since retired and moved to a new house where I have a huge train set room and I am building a version of my dream layout.Thankfully I still have that desire to run trains and I am not getting on very fast with the scenic side but I am really lucky that I can pop into my railway room and enjoy driving my trains.

 

It is a lovely idea to model a real location but if you are not enjoying it then a fictitious place can bring the fun back into the hobby.

 

If you have considered any other possible layouts, go back and revisit those ideas, there might be one that gets you enjoying your modelling.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Bluemonkey presents....]

I can not agree more with all the comments made. 

 

I had a layout with a real location layout and I poorly made the boards in my haste to get something up and running. I then found I was unable to do things as I wanted thus losing interest for years. I started making a few kits that I had collected and still made occasional purchases for my 'dream' layout.

 

I challenged myself to made that 'pipeline' model basking a kit and scratch building various other aspects. After about 8 months I ended with a model of  crane tank and a huge drive to rebuild my dream layout.

This time taking everything that I had gained from my previous layout and arming myself with the knowledge that things take time I have started rebuilding. So not to be over fazed by the constant construction or hitting that brick wall I also have a kit project running at the same time. So when I get fed up with work work, ballasting etc I switch to kit building and vice versa. 

 

You will find natural peeks and troughs through a layout build, especially large or real locations as by the nature of them they will take a long time to construct.

[PatB]

My interpretation of your post is that you can't get Penzance into the space you have in a form that's acceptable to you. That's fair enough, and a problem many modellers have faced. So don't build Penzance. If you want an ex-GWR west country main line terminus, create your own Neverwazance, based in some indeterminate town on the Cornish or north-west Devon coast, postulating that the GWR went there as well as/instead of Penzance. If you went "as well as" your timetable could be made interesting by assuming(depending on era) that trains are split and joined into Penzance and Neverwazance portions at some fictional junction on the GWR main line. The main advantage of such an approach is that you get to run the locos and stock that presumably appeal to you, you can work on creating the atmosphere of a similar area to Penzance, but you're not constrained to producing an accurate model of a real location and so you can use any one of a myriad of fictional terminus plans that were designed to fit into a finite area. I.MHO this is more likely to give you a successful and satisfying layout than trying to squeeze in the essential elements of a prototype that won't fit without becoming obviously "wrong" to you.

 

Another option, to get your mojo back, is to build something small and relatively quick to give you something to play trains on while refining/rethinking the magnum opus. With careful selection of prototype you can probably find an excuse to run at least some of your west country stock collection, even if it's just from small terminus to temporary fiddleyard. Have a look at some of Freezer's main line terminii. Compared to a Penzance garage filler, something like Dugdale Road could be put together to an operable standard very quickly, maybe supported on your existing boards for now, and let you run pleasing main line trains to a satisfyingly complex timetable. The old adage of Get Something Running as soon as possible has much to be said for it.

[Nearholmer]

I'd be really surprised if we can't, between us all, find a way of getting the essence of Penzance into a garage in 00 (don't tell us you're working to Gauge 1, please).

 

Roughly what date are you seeking to portray, because I think the real thing was reconfigured at some point to create an extra platform face, either late-GW days, or early-BR?

 

Long Rock is a sort of real-life fiddle yard, so that might help.

[The Johnster]

I have been in the game many years and made all of these mistake, in spades.  Your current situation is that you have stock and nowhere to run it because you don't have anywhere to construct your original plan.  Penzance is fairly compact as main line termini go, but it spreads out a long way to the south of the passenger station and it's a long way from the throat to anything you can use as a scenic break if you are keeping things to scale. even in 2mm.

 

So you've hit a bit of a block.  Ok, let's focus on the good stuff; you've got plenty of stock and bought it before the prices started going into orbit, and you have a garage.  At the risk of sounding like a motivation seminar, it's an opportunity to make something else that will fit the space you have and use the stock you already have.

 

I do not know what period you are modelling, but for the stock to be specific to Penzance I am going to assume that it is GW, BR WR, or early privatised; stock has become increasingly homogeneous in more modern times except perhaps in terms of liveries, and if you are in the game of modelling a station to scale I am going to assume you can handle your own repaints.  On that basis, we are looking for a GW terminus that can take similar stock in a smaller space.  There aren't many, but there are some; they are not in Cornwall but they are in West Wales.  

 

Have a look at Milford Haven, or Pembroke Dock, and Fishguard.  Milford is not large, and the track continues past the harbour along the edge of the Haven to an oil refinery, but a road bridge at the harbour end of the station could be a good break.  You have the oil trains and the fish traffic running through, and passenger/general merchandise terminating (the refinery closed back in the 80s).  The station site is curved which may or may not be an advantage to you; the line disappears inland up a valley into a cutting which is ideal to provide your scenic break.

 

I know less about Pembroke Dock, but again it is not large.  The naval dockyard and RNAD depot is large, though, and probably not practical to model.  It is now a ferry port, with the railway terminating at the station and reduced to a very basic state.  Fishguard is a ferry port as well, and retains the vestiges of it's rail service, but in it's day was a well spread out complex with a loco shed and auto worked branch to the town of Fishguard.  Traffic is the ferry, and cattle/general merchadise from Eire, not much fish went out by rail.

 

Much depends on your period.  In steam days, anything GW/WR up to and including Castles (clean ones from Canton at Fishguard), so much the same as Penzance.  In hydraulic days, no Warships or 22s, but plenty Westerns and Hymeks, along with 37 and 47.  Westerns and 47s were used on the Milford Haven daily fish train.  Post hydraulics, the same but no Peaks or 50s, with the freight traffic lessening over time until the present.

 

So some of your locos are perhaps not suitable for West Wales if your period is post 1959, but all of your rolling stock will be.  Broccili trains ran from Milford as well as Penzance, and there was a good trade in new potatoes from the area as well, but we are going back to the 70s at the latest for this.

Edited January 21, 2019 by The Johnster

[Clagsniffer]

Just wanted to say a big thank you to all the replies and supportive comments, really appreciate that you have taken the time to come up with positive solutions. I've just finished reading through the replies sitting here with a cuppa after work. So I thought I'd take this chance to give a bit more information and background of the location selection and some of the difficulties I've faced.

 

So why Penzance? I picked up a copy of the Great Western Journal and it had an article about Penzance. In the article there was a brilliant track plan of the station and of long rock, and I thought it would make a brilliant layout. I also love the coast, so the fact that the station was pretty much on the beach was a bonus. I then started to research about the station and various workings. After a couple of posts on here I was given a working timetable which included the train formations and coach types etc (thanks Flood) which was a big help to someone like me with little knowledge. The period of the timetable was early to mid 70's, so BR blue was the period I would model. I liked the different types of working that made it to Penzance, parcels trains, sleepers, short local trains and long expresses. The motive power also appealed to me, westerns, warships, 50's and 47's all amongst my favourite classes. I also enjoy shunting, so a terminus seemed to be the logical choice, that also meant I didn't have to worry about the curves at either end of a through station. So in short I picked Penzance because of the track plan, variety of traffic, motive power, BR blue being my favourite period, shunting opportunities and to a lesser extent the proximity to the sea. So that was it, decision made, I was going to build Penzance. I the proceeded to buy far more MK1's than I would probably need, parcels stock and locos before I'd even drawn up any plans or even had the space to build it. Lets just say I got excited/carried away. 

 

So then time went by and I moved into my house with my fiancé. Lots of things needed done to the house but I headed straight to the garage. Got the floor all insulated, nice flooring, installed new lighting and sockets and painted all the walls. I finally had a railway room! At this point I downloaded Anyrail and started trying to replicate a track plan. This is where the problems really started. So I roughly had 16ft x 8ft to work with. I eventually came up with a plan that fit the space and ordered some track. I had all the track laid out as per my design and was quite happy. I hadn't thought about the cross members of my baseboards interfering with the point motors! So that was the first set of tweaks. I then wasn't happy with the curves leading into the station, this lead to the next lot of tweaks. After this I posted on here with my progress and was horrified to read some of the pitfalls I hadn't been aware of. The one that stuck out in my mind was the comment made about how 'straight' my platforms all were. I had to agree that with Penzance having a gentle curve to it, my track plan didn't capture the character of the real thing. This lead me to taking an extended break away from the layout, I just couldn't build in the curves to match the prototype whilst keeping the parcels sidings etc.

 

So now looking at it with fresh perspective, the compromises I wasn't prepared to accept were, losing any width therefore losing the parcels area as a lot of shunting would be lost and I didn't want to lose any length to the platforms and not have the full length trains. Also the curves leading into the station looked very train set like and thought it would spoil the overall effect. This led to me thinking that the space I had just wasn't going to cope with what I wanted the layout to be or how I had pictured it in my mind.

 

So here we are, with the feeling I'm back to the drawing board. Hope this gives a better picture of where im at currently, ill try and post a link to the thread I posted way back with the track plan on it and you can have a look if you so wish. At this point im open to any comments or ideas. Thanks for reading.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89606-penzance-ish-track-plan/

 

edited to add the link to my track plan thread.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Clagsniffer

[Nearholmer]

What’s more important to you: replicating a place exactly to scale; or, having a layout that allows you to represent the operation of Penzance to a decent degree of believability?

Edited January 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[bennyboy]

What’s more important to you: replicating a place exactly to scale; or, having a layout that allows you to represent the operation of Penzance to a decent degree of believability?

 

I was just going to say that perhaps the best solution is to try to build a Penzance-esque station rather than an exact model of it. I'm currently building a N Gauge layout based on Kings Cross in the 70s which is only 5'x2'! It may not be a scale model, but it has the essence of and most of the features of the KX station throat from that period.

[Theakerr]

Years ago I wanted to build Grimsby circa 1955.  However due to the geometry of my railway room there was simply no way I could build the cleethorpes line coming in from the left and the Boston line going out on the right (looking towards London).  I probably spent 6 months trying to figure out how to do.  Eventually realised it just wasn't going to happen, so to maintain the period and rolling stock I had accumulated I ended up reversing it.  Cleethorpes goes to the right and London to the left.  For the most part I can do what I want in terms of operation just reversed.  Works for me.

[Nearholmer]

A BR Blue Penzance is one of those ideas that I would build if I had an infinite amount of time and money, although possibly in N, rather than 00, to get the full sweep.

 

It was still a very interesting railway until HSTs took over most services, with lots of highly inefficient activity to entertain railway enthusiasts.

 

In 00, and your space, I'm convinced that you could fit something that would be instantly recognisable, and cater for 90% or more of the action, but I guess you'd need to cut the number of cars on the longer trains, perhaps to six or eight, and probably omit the loco-release at platform 3(?), meaning that the pilot would be needed more, in order to leave room for a decent throat.

 

I'm imagining the station and simplified throat along one wall, and a combination of FY and carriage stabling on the other long wall, with perhaps a vestigial MPD tucked into one corner.

 

The obvious thing to do is model it looking landwards, its been done a few times before, but a radical approach might be to go the other way, and model it as seen over the wall, looking out to sea, with a huge panorama of Mount's Bay painted on the walls, that way, entering the railway room would actually be like going to Penzance ....... recordings of seagull noises??

[Andy Kirkham]

 

Have a look at Milford Haven, or Pembroke Dock, and Fishguard.  Milford is not large, and the track continues past the harbour along the edge of the Haven to an oil refinery, but a road bridge at the harbour end of the station could be a good break.  You have the oil trains and the fish traffic running through, and passenger/general merchandise terminating (the refinery closed back in the 80s).  The station site is curved which may or may not be an advantage to you; the line disappears inland up a valley into a cutting which is ideal to provide your scenic break.

 

A fascinating place Milford Haven. A classic GWR single platform branch terminus that happened to dispatch two sleeper trains to Paddington each night (after Neyland had closed in 1964) and enjoyed a variety of goods and parcels traffic into the 1980's. The line beyond the station did not serve an oil refinery, however (the refinery lines branched off around Johnston) but just the docks and the Royal Navy mines depot at Newton Noyes. There were daily trips with military traffic between Milford, Fishguard and Trecwn.

 

SEP 73 06. 6884 on arrival at Milford Haven with the 0110 from Bristol, July 31 1973 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

SEP 73 08. 6884 waits at the platform with the 07:15 to Carmarthen while another Class 37 departs from Milford Haven with the 06:52 parcels to Haverfordwest, July 31 1973 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[Andy Kirkham]

 

 

The obvious thing to do is model it looking landwards, its been done a few times before, but a radical approach might be to go the other way, and model it as seen over the wall, looking out to sea, with a huge panorama of Mount's Bay painted on the walls, that way, entering the railway room would actually be like going to Penzance ....... recordings of seagull noises??

 

A bit like this?

APR 74 35. 1056 Western Sultan passes two classmates as it approaches Penzance with the 09:30 from Paddington. April 15(?) 1974 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Edited January 21, 2019 by Andy Kirkham

[F-UnitMad]

 

A bit like this?

APR 74 35. 1056 Western Sultan passes two classmates as it approaches Penzance with the 09:30 from Paddington. April 15(?) 1974 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

What a photo!!! Wibblewibblewibble....       

 

Also goes to show that you can model 'Penzance' without a hint of station platform in view - because any enthusiast of the Era or Region would know where that shot was taken!! 

[F-UnitMad]

 

 

The obvious thing to do is model it looking landwards, its been done a few times before, but a radical approach might be to go the other way, and model it as seen over the wall, looking out to sea, ....

Surely that's the way the vast majority of photos of Penzance were taken - "looking over the wall", with the sea beyond??!!

[TheSignalEngineer]

My own experience was that I planned a nice branch line with a lower continuous main line which was only visible for a short length. The idea was that branch trains would start from the lower level fiddle yard, briefly appear on the main line before re-appearing on the top level.

Before I started building I put a few sheets of ply on trestles and put down the main line track plan. I mocked up the top from cardboard and found it didn't really work although it looked nice on paper. It just wasn't practical in 3D given the available space. 

The upshot was a re-design with a through station on the main line and a branch coming in at one end. beside the branch there are three sidings which form an elongated shunting puzzle to drop off wagons for the mileage yard an industrial branch disappearing at the other end of the station. It took about three years to get to a track layout which was fairly prototypical for its area and also fun to operate, with the options of watching trains go by, station stops with branch connections, looping a through freight to let the Passenger pass or drop off wagons and shunting the trip.

Edited January 22, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[Nearholmer]

“Surely that's the way the vast majority of photos of Penzance were taken - "looking over the wall", with the sea beyond??!!”

 

Yes, other than Neptune’s gricing pictures.

 

But, every one of the several models of it that I’ve seen has been viewed as by Neptune, or perhaps the tennant of St Michael’s Mount.

[PatB]

I have been in the game many years and made all of these mistake, in spades.  Your current situation is that you have stock and nowhere to run it because you don't have anywhere to construct your original plan.  Penzance is fairly compact as main line termini go, but it spreads out a long way to the south of the passenger station and it's a long way from the throat to anything you can use as a scenic break if you are keeping things to scale. even in 2mm.

 

So you've hit a bit of a block.  Ok, let's focus on the good stuff; you've got plenty of stock and bought it before the prices started going into orbit, and you have a garage.  At the risk of sounding like a motivation seminar, it's an opportunity to make something else that will fit the space you have and use the stock you already have.

 

I do not know what period you are modelling, but for the stock to be specific to Penzance I am going to assume that it is GW, BR WR, or early privatised; stock has become increasingly homogeneous in more modern times except perhaps in terms of liveries, and if you are in the game of modelling a station to scale I am going to assume you can handle your own repaints.  On that basis, we are looking for a GW terminus that can take similar stock in a smaller space.  There aren't many, but there are some; they are not in Cornwall but they are in West Wales.  

 

Have a look at Milford Haven, or Pembroke Dock, and Fishguard.  Milford is not large, and the track continues past the harbour along the edge of the Haven to an oil refinery, but a road bridge at the harbour end of the station could be a good break.  You have the oil trains and the fish traffic running through, and passenger/general merchandise terminating (the refinery closed back in the 80s).  The station site is curved which may or may not be an advantage to you; the line disappears inland up a valley into a cutting which is ideal to provide your scenic break.

 

I know less about Pembroke Dock, but again it is not large.  The naval dockyard and RNAD depot is large, though, and probably not practical to model.  It is now a ferry port, with the railway terminating at the station and reduced to a very basic state.  Fishguard is a ferry port as well, and retains the vestiges of it's rail service, but in it's day was a well spread out complex with a loco shed and auto worked branch to the town of Fishguard.  Traffic is the ferry, and cattle/general merchadise from Eire, not much fish went out by rail.

 

Much depends on your period.  In steam days, anything GW/WR up to and including Castles (clean ones from Canton at Fishguard), so much the same as Penzance.  In hydraulic days, no Warships or 22s, but plenty Westerns and Hymeks, along with 37 and 47.  Westerns and 47s were used on the Milford Haven daily fish train.  Post hydraulics, the same but no Peaks or 50s, with the freight traffic lessening over time until the present.

 

So some of your locos are perhaps not suitable for West Wales if your period is post 1959, but all of your rolling stock will be.  Broccili trains ran from Milford as well as Penzance, and there was a good trade in new potatoes from the area as well, but we are going back to the 70s at the latest for this.

 

I did wonder about West Wales, as, based on maps and photographs, it appears to offer much of what makes Devon and Cornwall so attractive but which has been comparatively neglected by modellers. However, as I have no direct experience of the area I thought I'd better not risk talking what might be rubbish.

[The Stationmaster]

I did wonder about West Wales, as, based on maps and photographs, it appears to offer much of what makes Devon and Cornwall so attractive but which has been comparatively neglected by modellers. However, as I have no direct experience of the area I thought I'd better not risk talking what might be rubbish.

 

Apart from Fishguard and Neyland the West Wales termini were small single platform face affairs.  The most interesting by a long margin was Neyland with what amounted to a very ancient style of layout with a separate arrival and departure platform with part of the loco shed between them.  The shed was the principal one west of Carmarthen and included 4-6-0s in its allocation and of course it was also the terminus for sleeper and mail trains for many years.  Masses of siding space and it would be a fascinating place to model although it would require plenty of space and be a wide layout.

 

Coming back to Penzance and I return to my original comment about the presence of slips etc.  The 1938 station throat incorporated a scissors crossover and a couple of single slips but the 1974 layout (sketch at Post No.12 in your earlier thread) - correct for the time you wish to model - was much simpler with a basically single line approach and thus far simpler to model.  Judging by your most recent plan in your original thread you have tried to put too much into the space you have available and it simply won't work.  By going for long platforms you inevitably squeeze the space available for pointwork but have in fact installed a very complex layout which, exacerbated by the sheer number of tracks, inevitably resulted in a tight radius of the approach curve, especially as that involves 5 lines including the sidings.  Unless you compromise on at least one thing you aren't going to get out of the situation you have created.

 

I would be inclined first of all to shorten the platforms, even if only by one coach length.  Reduce the number of lines on the initial curve by talking out the Up Siding and possibly reducing the Sea Sidings to one instead of two.  Taking out sidings, or even moving the connection into the Up Siding round off the curve, will reduce the pointwork in the straight section station throat thus allowing the curves to be eased to a wider radius.   You also need to think out very carefully what you want to do in terms of shunting and get rid of your platform 5 - the station only had 4 platforms, the others were round on the curve (which I appreciate is a difficulty for other reasons).  

 

Basically you have squeezed in too much into what is really a fairly restricted space - although 16ft might sound a lot it isn't in 4mm scale and the inevitable trade-off comes between what lies on the 'straight' section and what happens to the curvature at the end - you can't have both in a complex, multi-platform, terminus layout in that distance.  Look at 'Signal Engineer's' post (No,21) above - it is all about compromises and I found exactly the same when trying to plan a particular yard connection track layout into my own layout plan where I rapidly ran out of space which would mean reducing the main line radius at one end of the layout beyond what I would regard as acceptable.  Don't forget that a 3ft radius curve has to start at least 3ft 3" from the end wall of the layout - plus whatever space you want for scenery thus if your curves start only a couple of feet from that end wall they are barely likely to make 2 ft radius.

 

I think a slightly compromised and reduced Penzance is feasible in the length you have but I would start with the 1974 layout and not the 1938 one because even using more slips the 1938 layout will consume a lot of space especially if it includes both of the Sea Sidings and the former equivalent of the Up Siding.  And if you aren't using DCC it will also be a lot simpler electrically as well as easier to signal.

[njee20]

N gauge. Job jobbed!