Short Coach identification

[Edwardian]

Here is a picture of a LSWR train, dated 1907, on a well-known West Country bridge. It is not great resolution, I'm afraid.

 

Pouring over Russell and the excellent and invaluable Penros site (http://www.penrhos.me.uk/index.shtml) over tea and toast this a.m. I have attempted to identify the GW coaches. EDIT, I should say that the GW coaches are the pair at the rear of each formation in case that wasn't obvious!

 

First, a word on the SW coaches, which I think I have also managed to identify and which, thus, give some 'scale'.  From left to right I am going for 28' 4-wheel Brake Third (1879), 28' 4-wheel Third (1879), 24' Luggage Van (1887), 32' 6-wheel Tri-composite (1880/1).  There are some later coaches that might also match some of these, but SW coaches of the vintage assumed seemed to inhabit the West Country in the Edwardian period. 

 

For the GW coaches,to me their length relative to the SW coaches suggests the standard 31'. From left to right I think they are :

 

• 31' 6-wheel arc-roofed 1st/2nd Luggage Composite to diagram U16 (1872-74 (showing deeper eaves panels)); and,

 

• 31' 4-wheel elliptical-roofed Van Third to diagram T32 (1891/4).  It could be T33 if no look-out projection is present, but I rather fancy that I can discern one here. 

 

The second picture shows a similar formation at the branch terminus.  It is even worse quality!  Based upon my interpretation of the first picture, it could be the same SW coaches, less the luggage van, and two GW coaches at the left-hand end.  Here I would plump again for U16, but the Van Third is different and to a more conventional layout. I would suggest something along the lines of the 31' 4-wheel 3-compartment Van Third to diagram T34 (1894-6).

 

If anyone can confirm or deny any of my suppositions, I would be most grateful.

 

Thanks.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

Train on the bridge: isn't the fourth vehicle, the one you identify as a LSWR 6-wheeler, in fact GW? It seems to have dark rather than light coloured waist panelling and possibly GW-style grab handles. It look like a 5-compartment third to me. What is the fifth vehicle? Clearly some kind of high-roofed CCT with side doors.

[Edwardian]

Train on the bridge: isn't the fourth vehicle, the one you identify as a LSWR 6-wheeler, in fact GW? It seems to have dark rather than light coloured waist panelling and possibly GW-style grab handles. It look like a 5-compartment third to me. What is the fifth vehicle? Clearly some kind of high-roofed CCT with side doors.

 

I agree.  I was influenced by the photograph caption, which had claimed the first 4 coaches were LSW.  Before I read that my first impression was that it was a GW coach. I should have had more confidence in my first impressions, and I am interested that it struck you as a GW coach.

 

I think the reasons you give are the right ones, too.  

 

I think we can see GW grab handles - they show in a similar fashion on the last two coaches.  The waist panel does look dark and I think it is just possible to say that it is a little narrower than on the SW coaches, which would be correct.  

 

Though pretty hard to tell, I'd reason as follows:

 

- Yes, I agree it is likely a 5-compartment Third. 

 

- It could be that we are seeing the transitional style, with shallower eaves panels over the windows, dipping to a deep eaves panel over the doors

 

- Stretching what I think I can see, but I think it might be a single arc roof, rather than elliptical

 

- It appears to be a 6-wheeler

 

Put all those features together and that suggests to me perhaps the 4th coach is to diagram S6 (1886), a diagram of 40 coaches at this time, or S8 (1885), a diagram of 30 vehicles.

 

Again I am indebted to the penrhos website (http://www.penrhos.me.uk/Sdiags.shtml). 

 

I think that the NPC is likely to be a CCT, as you say, probably something like a P7. 

 

The caption also states that all coaches were 4-wheelers (I think two of them are 6-wheelers) and that the train engine is an O2 (it looks more like the larger T1 to me).

 

Fascinating game, coach identification.

[Penrhos1920]

Edwardian I'd say you're spot on except for the third which is not S8 as the difference between the window heights is not great enough. So S6 for that one.

 

The T32 is a rare one in photos.

[Edwardian]

Edwardian I'd say you're spot on except for the third which is not S8 as the difference between the window heights is not great enough. So S6 for that one.

 

The T32 is a rare one in photos.

 

Thank you, that is helpful and welcome confirmation.

 

My first choice was in fact S6, offering S8 as the alternative.  I see what you mean when discounting the S8 option, the disparity in eaves panel depth is greater on the S8, referring again to your website I see that now, so S6 is the best match.

 

These were 28' vehicles and I'd I think that we can be reasonably confident that it is a 28' vehicle in the photograph.  Although not a perfect exercise, I think that based on its apparent length relative to the the other coaches in the train, it is a 28' vehicle: 

 

- It is not so long as the 2 end coaches, which I reckon at 31';

 

- It is noticeably longer than the 24' SW luggage van

 

- It appears to be the same length as the two leading SW coaches, which are, I believe, 28'

 

If it were not for the apparent disparity in eaves panel heights,I suppose it might have been be one of the very numerous S3s.  It is good, however, to have the chance to make up a train with 3 different eaves panel styles!